The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand, at least intellectually, that all experience that is filtered through my perception is essentially made of the same "stuff", arises and returns to a universal "fabric", call it consciousness, call it awareness, but I know that my perceptions tell me that I am separate from that awareness, which leads to fundamental suffering.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for some support and assistance as I navigate a path of self-enquiry as it is hard for me to look from outside a perspective that is the only way I know HOW to look, and I can definitely get myself caught up in some intellectual expectations, definitions, over-attachment to maps and descriptions. I am currently trying to shed all of that, surrender myself to faith that something greater than me is guiding me along a pathway, and working to be as receptive as possible to the signs and pointers that are put in front of me (including a referral to this site!)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Trying to not expect too much from anything honestly at this point in my journey, but I imagine the person will listen to me relay my current experiences while practicing, point out shadow spots, and help guide me past, through, around, etc. the barriers that seem to be arising for me. Not that it is their responsibility or that I expect to be pulled along, but that they can help me see where I am unable to see things myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A few years ago I practiced almost every day for a year following a book called The Mind Illuminated, which teaches a samatha-vipassana practice and is very clearly guided at Enlightenment. I participated in a sangha and got very attached to paths, mapping, progress of insight, experiences, and so on. This was motivating and exciting for me until I got far enough and reached a place of supreme frustration and doubt, having an unshakeable faith that the path does exist and works, but believing that it could not and would not work for ME, with my super special separate suffering, somehow I alone should be held apart from this universal experience (that's how it felt). So I quit meditating for a few years. For the last few years I've strengthened my sense of self in some ways via therapy and emotional work, but have never shed the knowledge that I am dealing with fundamental suffering, and that there is more out there for me.

I have had some experiences, first via mushrooms and then via a meditation retreat, where I was able to see what all of my "problems" were self generated, and by relaxing around them, I could touch into a space of absolute "okayness" where all of those "problems" existed, but were just objects, nothing permanent, nothing to suffer about. But then "I" came crowding back in and scared that feeling off :)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Geoff is good!

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Happy to have you, and happy to get going!

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

I'm good with all this.

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?

My 'driving thought' is that I'd like to live a life free of doubt and remorse. I'd like to think that by decreasing the amount of kinda-neurotic self-consciousness I have (I call it the 'invisible audience') that I can feel more free, second-guess myself less, and be more connected to my loved ones.

2. How will you change?

I'd love to be more present, able to listen, able to follow and act upon my intuition without my cognition second-guessing, evaluating, and doubting everything.

3. What will be different?

Not sure I can answer this as written - I've never been 'there' so I don't know what will be different. I'm open to whatever changes in my life as a result.

4. What is missing?

I don't know that anything is missing, per se... more like there is too much. Too much between me and what is actually here.


Enjoy! :)
[/quote]

One other note is that I log maybe a paragraph after each sit. Would it be helpful for me to post my practice notes here?

Hi Geoff!

My 'driving thought' is that I'd like to live a life free of doubt and remorse. I'd like to think that by decreasing the amount of kinda-neurotic self-consciousness I have (I call it the 'invisible audience') that I can feel more free, second-guess myself less, and be more connected to my loved ones.

When it comes to seeing through the illusion of self, it has nothing to do with things changing, except that it is seen that there is no controller of any of it.

It's not a freedom from something, but instead it includes everything, it's a freedom WITH all of the above.

I'd love to be more present, able to listen, able to follow and act upon my intuition without my cognition second-guessing, evaluating, and doubting everything.

Same here. Things may change, but they also may not. If you already have a doubting habit going on, that may take time to lessen, because like all habits, it has its own momentum.

We can also look at doubt more closely if it comes up, as doubt tends to be an avoidance pattern. Instead of feeling, there's a jump to doubt to distract from being with whatever is arising.

One other note is that I log maybe a paragraph after each sit. Would it be helpful for me to post my practice notes here?

To keep things from becoming too cluttered, it's probably best to not do this. Although if you feel the urge to, or it feels relevant, you are more than welcome to follow this inclination :)

Okay, so let's start laying the foundation.

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I do feel clear about this. This is the way I have been trying to sit while practicing currently, seeing what is a sensation, noticing anything I can see isn't "it", so to speak, noticing when a thought hijacks the watching. If conceptual/discursive thought does show up I notice it as a thought as soon as I am able.

I do feel clear about this. This is the way I have been trying to sit while practicing currently, seeing what is a sensation, noticing anything I can see isn't "it", so to speak, noticing when a thought hijacks the watching. If conceptual/discursive thought does show up I notice it as a thought as soon as I am able.

Excellent!

Now building upon this with the next one:

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Hope I'm not knocking through this too quickly.

coolness, smoothness, pressure of wrists on keyboard wristrest = sensation
clacking of keyboard keys = sound
thinking sentence "what else is happening in experience?" = thought
construction occurring outside = hearing
tiredness of arm muscles (heaviness, discomfort) = sensation
anticipation of next meeting starting soon = thought
anxiety feeling in chest (tightness, buzzing) = sensation
looking at plant, visual field around plant = seeing
stroking beard = sensation
mouth taste (neutral) = taste

The exercise is usually done over a day or so, but you seemed to have gotten the gist of it.

This next one is about 20 minutes, but feel free to use it during the day to explore the questions at the end. I'll be back tomorrow, so you might as well savor it :)

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

First 10min

I am sitting on my stool.
I am writing in a notebook.
I feel too warm and slightly sweaty.
I am wondering how I will do this for 10 minutes.
I am feeling the back of my knee itch.
I am feeling my armpits itch.
I am feeling my wristwatch.
I am having unsatisfactory emotional feelings.
I feel uncomfortable.
I am looking at this notebook.
I am thinking about the future.
I am feeling a deep breath.
I am feeling my fingers in my hair and on my forehead.
I am feeling sticky.
I feel uncomfortable.
I am@looking at the instructions on my phone.
I am hearing some low ambient humming.
I am feeling my fingers rub my forehead.
I am feeling my eyes are dry.
I see thoughts arising.
I feel my wrist is slightly sore.
I taste leftover cacao nibs in my mouth.
I feel my fingers rubbing my eyebrows.
I hear my eyebrow hair rustle.
I feel@impatience.
I feel and hear my wrist crack.
I feel spacey.
I feel anticipation.
I feel tingling crawling on my back skin.
I feel dry eyes.
I hear my cat meow.
I hear my partner walking.
I feel my bare feet sticking to the floor.
I hear some mechanical noise.
I hear myself take a deep inhale.
Thoughts arising.
I hear a confusing noise I cannot place.
I think of images of a fan.
I hear my partner talk.
I feel my fingers pulling at my beard.
I feel sticky.
I feel ambient heat.
I feel pressure on my feet.
I hear the 10min bell.
hourhero — Yesterday at 10:28 PM
2nd 10min

Anticipating.
Chest sensation.
Back discomfort.
Head pressure.
Blinking
Thoughts
Face pressure
Discomfort in back
Shifting position
WTching for sensations
Sticky belly skin
Looking
Listening
Fan noise
Glasses slipping
Wristwatch vibrating
Adjusting glasses
Sitting up
Elbow discomfort
Fan noise
Ear itch
T shirt on ground
Thoughts
Memories
Waiting
Spacey
Moist nose
Sweaty armpits
Adjusting position
Annoyance
Touching page
Waiting
Spacey
Looked at time
Thoughts
Anxiety
Chest sensations
Thinking
Remembering
Waiting
Feeling sheepish
Sticky skin
Feeling nose itch
Waiting
Spacey
Stroking beard
Thinking
Remembering
Hearing thoughts
Blinking hard
Cracking back
Feeling sticky
Craving fan
Feeling dissatisfied
Thinking
Waiting
Rereading words above
Hearing partners phone
Hearing fan
Craving fan
Stretching neck
Hearing / feeling head scratch
Waiting
Thinking
Stroking beard
Clearing throat
Feeling face
Noticing attention
Feeling ease
Sweaty nose
Thinking
Discourse
Anticipating
Scratching face
Hearing fan

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

#2 seems truer but I feel this is the "right" answer. By the time I was writing what I was doing in #1, more sensations were arising. Felt slightly abstracted to retroactively claim "I" was doing something.

2. What is here without labels?
Just sensations. Some conceptualization on top of those, like attributing Fan to a noise I am hearing.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Definitely affect. The I statements became narratives and more rigidly defined. For example, near the end of my practice, I saw that the Fan I kept imagining wasn't in sight so there was no proof it was a fan. Just a sound my mind applied the concept/image of Fan to. Applying words to sensations in the 2nd one meant I had to define a "shape" for the sensation with a concept.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I felt more receptive for exercise 2. More waiting for the next sensation to have attention on it. Felt more like listening.

Okay, this is all very good.

Now building on this with the next pointer:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

Okay, this is all very good.

Now building on this with the next pointer:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

"Apple" could never be known in direct experience because "apple" is a concept created by applying a label to a cluster of thoughts/sensations. It reminds me of last night when I realized I was applying "fan blowing in another room" to the sensation of hearing. The hearing was happening right in my direct experience. The "fan" AND the "other room" were both concepts inferred by the thinking mind but neither was, or could ever be, known in direct experience.

Okay, good stuff.

Now let's take the apple exercise and apply it to the 'I'/'me':

What is known for sure about 'I'?

Does the thought 'I' contain a real I?

Is there anything that points to there being a real I there?

Does the thought know anything about an 'I'?

What is the label 'I' actually referring to?

Can an 'I' be found in actual experience, or only thoughts about 'I'?

What is known for sure about 'I'?

I know anything I can see isn't the thing seeing it, including a sense of "I". When I investigate, there seems to be nothing consistent about "I" other than the sense that it wants to reify itself as existing.

Does the thought 'I' contain a real I?

No, the thought "I" is just a reference or a concept and is not the thing seeing it.

Is there anything that points to there being a real I there?

Other than the fact that experience continues to arise, and there appears to be some continuity to it, anything I can see in enquiry practice that claims itself as "I" ends up just being another sensation, thought, or perception.

Does the thought know anything about an 'I'?

The thought cannot know anything as it's like a sensation, just arising.

What is the label 'I' actually referring to?

In a felt sense, there seems to be a feeling of..... ownership, or participation, or something that claims an identity over what's happening. Perhaps it feels like the thing that directs my attention, or generates my intentions.

Some juicy bits here to work with. I've taken notes so we can cover them.

Let's take them one by one.

Feel free to take your time with this next pointer, because I'll be back tomorrow :)

Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come from nowhere and disappear back into nowhere, as far as I can tell. They appeared and disappeared when they showed up within awareness, same as any of my other sensations.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

For most of the meditation thoughts arose and disappeared, or were subsumed, with no input from me whatsoever. It did, however, feel like I could actively speak a thought if I intended to.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Not unless I was aware and present. Thoughts took over my watching plenty of times and I became part of a story and the sense of awareness or observation was consumed. While aware, however, it felt like I could use intention to redirect thought slightly, but they still constantly arose and disappeared without much input from me.

Can you predict the next thought?

Not at all. I tried.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

No, there was no control over what thoughts arose or didn't arise.

Do you control where attention goes?

Similar to the answer above, it felt like I could control attention when I was aware. However, I could not control when attention would shift off of the thing I intended it to be looking at. When I was consumed by, or participating in a thought train, however, I could not. I wasn't aware where attention was, at all.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It felt like I could choose what words to say or what image to generate, when I was aware, but that was the minority to the endless thought stream.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

I didn't really go into this believing that thoughts are ordered logically. I did notice "meta" thoughts, like assumptions about what I would or wouldn't find, or what the "right" thing to see was. I was able to see some of those instances as thoughts, but they were subtle.