The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I used to believe the self was something fictitious that the real I concocted. It was something that only existed in thought that the real me could observe and witness. Lately, I have been seeing that the self I was identifying with as the observer or witness might also just be a concoction of the mind.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guide that can help me confirm this understanding. Currently I feel like I am trying to convince myself that I don’t exist. I don’t know how to get there other that meditation/self-inquiry.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read a few in the Gateless Gatecrashers book so I expect it to be very much a dialogue back and forth with the guide asking me about my beliefs and offering pointers that require me to question my beliefs.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on this journey for the past 6-7 years. I meditate a lot and read / watch tons. At first my practice was mostly breath mediation but over the last year or two I’ve been doing more inquiry work.

Lately, it seems as though the more I meditate and watch the activity or my kind, the more suffering there is. Although it has helped me in other ways, rather than relieve suffering, it feels like my practice has inadvertently amplified it. I seem to notice thoughts and feelings that center around fears about the future and change. It’s getting very intense for me and I really feel I need to rip off the band aid.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi,

My name is Phil and I would be happy to guide you.

Lately, it seems as though the more I meditate and watch the activity or my kind, the more suffering there is. Although it has helped me in other ways, rather than relieve suffering, it feels like my practice has inadvertently amplified it.

Perhaps all the thoughts and apparent suffering have always been there, maybe it's just the noticing of them that has changed? Are you sure that looking has amplified it, or could that just be a belief? We will look closer at what is actually here to find out.


Ok, some prerequisites:

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Some housekeeping guidelines:

1 .Commitment: When we get started with this inquiry, it’s very important to keep the process rolling. I ask that you post here at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts (not the content). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It's good practice to copy / paste questions asked into Word, answer them there, then copy / paste back into your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!


Communication guidelines:

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. I’ll usually highlight them in blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it.
Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


OK, let's get started!


What would you like for me to call you?
Also, what time zone are you in?


To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:


How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Hi Phil. Very nice to meet you. Before we start, please accept my thanks for being willing to spend your free time doing this kind of work.

What would you like for me to call you?

Call me Mark please.

Also, what time zone are you in?

Pacific Daylight Saving Time (GMT-7)

How will life change?

Honestly, I don’t expect it will change very much. I will still work, spend time with my family, explore my interests. Good things will happen. Bad things will happen. Life will go on as it always has.

How will you change?

I seem obsessed with this search for something. It’s honestly as if I feel something is wrong and I know on some level there’s something more than this. I think the biggest change will be an end to this search. Perhaps I’ll go back to being drawn to things that used to capture my attention like art, music, literature, exercise.

What will be different?

This one is tough. I’ve tried to pretend as though I believed I didn’t exist. These experiences seemed to remove the subject-object relationship I feel in all my experience. Instead of feeling things like sadness or frustration, there was just sensations, neither good nor bad. Instead of feeling somewhat like there was a me that could turn away from emotions, there was suddenly no need to.

I suppose a life without a me as the star of the show is what I expect to be different.

What is missing?

That is what I’m searching for. I wish I’d already found the answer. I could stop trying to fill this void. There is something lingering in all my experience that whatever is going on is just not enough. Nothing is fulfilling enough. I can’t make things last.

Perhaps all the thoughts and apparent suffering have always been there, maybe it's just the noticing of them that has changed? Are you sure that looking has amplified it, or could that just be a belief?

I used to run away from how I felt. It obviously didn’t work so I tried mindfulness mediation. This gave me the courage to face my feelings and try to accept them. That was 6-7 years ago. Since then, I’ve continued my practice. Yes, it’s very possible/probable that I just notice these feelings more now as a result. In any case, the suffering feels like it always there. I see it clearly. I just don’t know what to do with/about it.

Hi Mark.

please accept my thanks for being willing to spend your free time doing this kind of work.

You're very welcome.

Some text I forget to mark blue:

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it

Just drop me a note to confirm you read this and the FAQ please, thanks.

I seem obsessed with this search for something. It’s honestly as if I feel something is wrong and I know on some level there’s something more than this. I think the biggest change will be an end to this search. Perhaps I’ll go back to being drawn to things that used to capture my attention like art, music, literature, exercise.

Well, the search can go on into some pretty deep stages of realisation. That may or may not continue after this process.
Here we are interested to find out if there actually is a separate self here at all who is doing that all that searching.

This one is tough. I’ve tried to pretend as though I believed I didn’t exist. These experiences seemed to remove the subject-object relationship I feel in all my experience. Instead of feeling things like sadness or frustration, there was just sensations, neither good nor bad. Instead of feeling somewhat like there was a me that could turn away from emotions, there was suddenly no need to.

I suppose a life without a me as the star of the show is what I expect to be different.

How do you know you were pretending?! Here we are interested in LOOKING to see what is actually there, and SEEING what never has been.
Let's have a look together for this ME to see if it has ever been the star of the show.

That is what I’m searching for. I wish I’d already found the answer. I could stop trying to fill this void. There is something lingering in all my experience that whatever is going on is just not enough. Nothing is fulfilling enough. I can’t make things last.

Maybe what you are looking for doesn't exist? Are you looking for the contents of a thought to tell you what this is? You wont find it in thought - it's not something that can be, or needs to be understood.
We are going to start this investigation by looking into what is actually here in your direct experience.

I used to run away from how I felt. It obviously didn’t work so I tried mindfulness mediation. This gave me the courage to face my feelings and try to accept them. That was 6-7 years ago. Since then, I’ve continued my practice. Yes, it’s very possible/probable that I just notice these feelings more now as a result. In any case, the suffering feels like it always there. I see it clearly. I just don’t know what to do with/about it.

Suffering is just a name, a label we give to a particular kind of experience. The experience is real - I'm not disregarding that at all, but let's look more closely into exactly what is here. without the label and stories, we may discover it's not at all what we THINK it is.


Please watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c


What comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

How do you know you were pretending?! Here we are interested in LOOKING to see what is actually there, and SEEING what never has been.

Respectfully, if there is no me, who are you asking to look to see that it doesn’t exist? This is what I don’t get.
I feel that I don’t believe that there is no me despite what everything I read and see in non-duality resources.

Maybe what you are looking for doesn't exist? Are you looking for the contents of a thought to tell you what this is?

Actually, I think I’m looking to feel it. I want to stop feeling negative emotions. I know I’m supposed to be able to identify the thoughts that are telling me that the sensations are bad, and yes, sometimes that works, but in general, it’s a constant challenge to try to keep that perspective.

What comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

While the idea that there is no self makes perfect sense to me on level, it also confuses me at times. Conceptually, I understand that why and how everything I think about myself exists only at the level of thought. In that sense, yes, I completely get it: the story of me, what I’m interested in, or my likes and dislikes, experiences, etc all only exist in my mind. That’s actually kind of sad, but yes, I get it. But at the same time, there is a person here experiencing things. Who is this person? Who is the person people are referring to when they ask Mark a question? Who is the person that looks in the mirror? Who is the person you are trying to guide to see that there is no self?

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it

Yes I have read the disclaimer. Thanks.

Respectfully, if there is no me, who are you asking to look to see that it doesn’t exist? This is what I don’t get.
I feel that I don’t believe that there is no me despite what everything I read and see in non-duality resources.

Yo think there has to be a ME to do the looking? Looking happens, but where is the ME that does this?
This is not about believing anything, really.
We are going to look in your actual experience to find out.
For now, just entertain this possibility, even though it makes no sense at all.

While the idea that there is no self makes perfect sense to me on level, it also confuses me at times. Conceptually, I understand that why and how everything I think about myself exists only at the level of thought. In that sense, yes, I completely get it: the story of me, what I’m interested in, or my likes and dislikes, experiences, etc all only exist in my mind. That’s actually kind of sad, but yes, I get it. But at the same time, there is a person here experiencing things. Who is this person? Who is the person people are referring to when they ask Mark a question? Who is the person that looks in the mirror? Who is the person you are trying to guide to see that there is no self?

Lots of ideas and questions here! The mind wants answers, unfortunately we're not here to satisfy the mind.
Following these next guidelines will help you get out of that.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I’m 100% clear about this.

Great.

Here's your first pointer to practice this:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Hi Phil. Is this okay?

Feeling a tickle in head - sensation
Seeing computer on table - seeing
Hearing birds outside - hearing
Walking outside feeling feet hit the ground - sensation
Thinking about global warming - thought
Seeing beautiful tree with blue flowers - seeing
Hearing car drive by - hearing
Feeling itch on head - sensation
Feeling of fear in stomach area - sensation
Thinking about doing this activity - thought

Tensing of body - sensation
Feeling an itch at back of head - sensation, thought
Looking at phone screen - seeing
Hearing refrigerator making ice - hearing, thought
Hearing truck go by - hearing, thought

I’ve spent hours meditating this way; ie - focusing on experience without a doer. Ie - there is just what is seen and not a seer, just what is felt and not a feeler. To me it feels like I’m just pretending that there is no subject. I realize I don’t yet see that this is in fact the truth, but I’m trying to get there. I also feel like I’m very open to accepting this as truth - I just need to be convinced of it.

Hey Mark,

This is a good start.

Feeling an itch at back of head - sensation, thought

Does the itchy sensation create thoughts?
Does this sensation itself have anything at all to do with thought?
It's important to discern the difference - thoughts can only be about an experience.

Hearing refrigerator making ice - hearing, thought
Hearing truck go by - hearing, thought

So the refrigerator makes the thoughts as well as sounds?
Does the truck emit thoughts too?
Can you really HEAR a thought? or is this added afterwards?
We’re not interested in what thoughts infer about a particular experience, just the raw sense experience itself.

Also I noticed you haven’t included any smell or taste examples.
These senses don’t usually cause us as much trouble, but it's important to see them clearly for what they actually are.

It's a great opportunity to try this anytime you are having a meal or drink - just give your attention fully to the experience, and let me know what you find. Please complete a couple more examples of the previous exercise, including all the senses as described above.

I’ve spent hours meditating this way; ie - focusing on experience without a doer. Ie - there is just what is seen and not a seer, just what is felt and not a feeler. To me it feels like I’m just pretending that there is no subject. I realize I don’t yet see that this is in fact the truth, but I’m trying to get there. I also feel like I’m very open to accepting this as truth - I just need to be convinced of it.

This practice your describe sounds good, but also sounds to me like you have made it into a problem. Is that the case?
You don’t need to be convinced of anything. I had the same idea about this - it's understandable to think that, it's just not going to help.
The mind will never ever be convinced of this, the good news is it doesn’t have to be.
If you believe there is a separate subject here - it's important to acknowledge that belief - this is what being honest with yourself is about.
Perhaps this is all this self really is? All beliefs fall by themselves when they are recognised as being false.
Looking at your direct experience, persistently in this way will make you prone to seeing this.

Does the itchy sensation create thoughts?
Does this sensation itself have anything at all to do with thought?
It's important to discern the difference - thoughts can only be about an experience.

No the sensation is felt, but there is immediately a thought attached to it as to where it is. That’s what I meant here. There were two events: the sensation and then the thought about it.

So the refrigerator makes the thoughts as well as sounds?
Does the truck emit thoughts too?
Can you really HEAR a thought? or is this added afterwards?
We’re not interested in what thoughts infer about a particular experience, just the raw sense experience itself.

Sorry same thing really. I guess I just mean the labels that the mind seems to give to certain experiences. I see them being attached.

Please complete a couple more examples of the previous exercise, including all the senses as described above.

Okay will do. Sorry, I found your email late. I somehow missed it when you sent it. I will do more of these tomorrow. It is night now on the west coast of Canada. Thanks.

Hi Phil,

Here are some from today:

Chest contracting - feeling
Thought of feeling averse, frustrated, aggravated - thinking
Thought of needing to get control over my feelings - thinking
Feeling of drink going down throat - feeling
Sound of wife loading dishwasher - hearing
Seeing a leaf falling - seeing
Tasting carrot in mouth - tasting
Feeling carrot crunch in mouth - feeling
Tasting blackberry sparkling water in mouth - tasting
Hearing sink faucet running - hearing
Seeing cat sleeping beside me on sofa - seeing
Feeling tension in elbow - feeling
Thinking about this exercise - thinking
Feeling stomach muscles contracting - feeling
Seeing everything the road, trees, and sky in front of me as I drive - seeing

Thanks