The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When I attempt to find "me" or "my self", all that is found is an awareness of being aware of thoughts and sensory perceptions (seeing form, hearing sounds, tasting foods, feeling sensations, etc).
There is no separate, distinct "me" or "self" to be found.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am primarily looking for a guide.
I have never had a direct guide before.
Most of my experience and learning has come from indirect guides in the form of books, videos, etc.
I am beginning Fetter work and I feel that having a guide through this will be more beneficial than attempting it alone since I still notice so much ego identification.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I suppose my only expectation is that a guide can help me to see it understand things that my ego strongly blocks me from seeing or understanding when trying to do this by myself.
I would like the accountability and outside perspective of someone who has come to these realizations.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been consciously and actively on a spiritual path for about 25 years.
I do not and never have adhered to any particular religions, teachings, practices, etc.
I have basically just taken what has resonated with me from many different teachings and practices but have not really formed any beliefs around them.
I have mostly relied on my own direct experience of things that others have pointed to rather than on believing what someone else says about their experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Allyn
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

Hello Rali
I'm so sorry for the delay in response.
I didn't see your email or post until just now.
Yes, you can call me Allyn and my time zone is EST in the United States.
I am very excited to get started with you.
Many thanks!

Hi Allyn
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

my time zone is EST in the United States.

I'm GMT+2. There is a bit of a difference but we'll manage :)

I am very excited to get started with you.

Wonderful! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Well at this stage from all that I have learned and experienced up to this point, there is a distinct lessening of the mental activity of identifying as "Allyn". In this dissolving of identifying with the thoughts and beliefs that have created the character of "Allyn", there is also the dissolving of taking things that happen so personally.
IE: Nothing that happens in this experience is about "me" or defines "me".
So I guess what will be different when I truly realize this, is that since I won't be taking things personally because there won't be an experience of there being anything personal here, then I will simply be at peace with just allowing things to be as they are.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Peace with whatever is happening. Even if the body or the mind does not appear to be experiencing peace.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To fall into the trap of replacing the old self-identity with a new self-identity that is the one who does not identify as a self.

4. What are you hoping for?

Peace with whatever is happening.

5. What is missing?

I don't like saying that anything is missing.
What I will say, is that I am unsure if I have truly cleared the first fetter.
I definitely feel that there's kind of no going back as far as the past depth and density of my identification with the self, but I guess I feel this sense that it hasn't truly clicked into place quite yet.
I have seen through the illusion of there being an actual separate self here, however I feel I am in a sort of limbo place of not being able to see myself as a self any longer, but not really knowing what that means or what's going to happen now.
Maybe this is more like being in the second fetter?
That feels most resonant.
I've seen through the illusion, but there's doubt that's still blocking me from being convinced of it.

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To fall into the trap of replacing the old self-identity with a new self-identity that is the one who does not identify as a self.

Is that really possible? They are both illusions – both in the domain of thought content… But we’ll see about it more later.

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

If you look for the I, what is there?

I ask, where am I?
What is first noticed is an amplification of sensation and feeling in this body.
It's like the frequency or volume of the body gets turned up.
All of the body from head to toe can be felt inside the skin, on the skin and there's even sensation out to a few inches around the skin.
I ask, where am I, then the body immediately amps up like it's saying, "Here! Here "I" am!"
Then I notice that there is a space that is not feeling or sensing anything but is instead what is aware and noticing that the body is sensing and feeling.
When I go more deeply into that awareness and ask, where am I, there is first a quiet blankness and then thoughts begin to appear trying to narrate or explain the experience.
And it's realized that this space of awareness is aware of, noticing, and observing the thoughts that are appearing just like it was aware of the body sensing and feeling.
In this way, it is clearly realized that if "I" can be aware of (or not be aware of) the body and what it's doing and the thoughts appearing, then "I" cannot BE the body or the thoughts and "I" cannot be found there.
Only sensations and thoughts are found there.
So "I" must be this awareness that is aware of these things.
But what is that?
Is that "me", is that "I"?
No.
Because there's something else.
It is an awareness of being aware.
And there's nothing there to grasp or label or explain.
It is only THIS.
Sensations, feelings, thoughts, sights, sounds, etc. appear within THIS but they are not THIS.
THIS is not an "I", it is not a "self".
It only THIS.
I cannot really explain it any other way.
"I" cannot be found, "myself" cannot be found.
There is only THIS and what appears to appear within it.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I have inquired on this quite a bit.
What first came up is doubt.
If this is true then that means there is no free will, no choice, no self-responsibility, no control.
That seemed impossible.
But after I sat with that the first time, I started noticing more and more in my daily activities that I truly was not actually choosing to do what I was doing.
I was experiencing many thoughts about choosing to do things but the actual doing of anything was never dependent on a choice being made to do them.
I realized that whatever is being experienced or being done is simply happening and is completely independent of some "one" choosing it or doing it.
Once this was realized, fear came up.
Because it completely destroyed everything I assumed to be true and there was a feeling of vulnerability and defenselessness.
But then it was seen that there was never any danger at any time and that I have been brought safely to this point all along.
It was seen that NOW is the time for this all to be realized and a feeling of peace and joy and relief was experienced.

Where exactly did you look?

The body and body field, the mind and thoughts appearing in mind, the silent nothing of THIS.

What exactly did you find?

A no-thing in which every-thing appears and happens.
THIS was found.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

The body is "tuned up", physical sensation is amplified like a buzzing, pulsing "live-wire" sensation.
Thoughts appear seemingly attempting to question or explain the experience.
Then there is this space of nothing which is still somehow something, THIS.

Hi Allyn
There is a lot of learned “stuff” (teachings) in your answer. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

Thanks Rali
I appreciate your insight but I'm confused here because you say that there seems to be a lot of learned stuff in my answers however all of my answers are my best attempt at describing my actual experiences, not what I've learned.
All of the experiences I described explain where I have SEEN that there is nothing.
An I missing something or perhaps my answers weren't clear about describing my experience?

Hi Allyn

I do believe that you have had experiences. However the way you describe some of them sounds a bit learned - things are way simpler than that. We'll get to that if you bare with me and answer the questions. The point of this exercise is to get an idea of how to distinguish between thought content and direct experience. Please, just be patient and trust the process.
Love
Rali

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

An "apple" cannot actually be known.
The word "apple" used to describe it is not the thing itself.
Any other words to describe it such as it's color, texture, shape, smell, taste, etc are also just descriptions and not the thing itself.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is not really an "apple" here. "Apple" is a thought.
All that can be "known" about "apple" is what can be sensed of it (smell, touch, taste, etc)

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. Only sensory perceptions about "apple" and thoughts about "apple" can be found.

Hi Allyn
Very good observations! Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) Let’s now incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

Seeing dirty dishes simply = image/color (seeing)
Smelling bacon cooking simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling cold air on my skin from a walk-in freezer simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting coffee with vanilla creamer simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing cars driving by simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about blaming someone for how I feel simply = thought (thinking)

Seeing a car accident simply = image/color (seeing)
Smelling a wet dog simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling pain in the stomach simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting a sausage biscuit simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing my favorite song simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about making a choice simply = thought (thinking)

Hi Allyn
Nery good! You can keep on doing this on a regular basis.

Let’s explore the “body”

Exercises:
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience –
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience –
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

B is the more accurate description.
The experience is that when I touch the can, a sensation is first noticed at the fingers, then it's a whole body sensation, then the mind labels the sensation "cold".

Can it be known how tall the body is?

I cannot have a direct experience of the height of this body.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Measurement cannot be directly experienced.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

If the label form is not added then the body is only perceived (seen, felt, heard, etc)

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No boundary is experienced. There is sensation where the clothing meets the skin and a change of color is seen between clothing and skin.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is a felt sensation where the body and chair meet but that sensation doesn't indicate a boundary unless the experience is thought about.

At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

It is one sensation experience.

Is there an inside or an outside?

No. In direct experience there is no actual boundary or distinction experienced between "inside" or "outside".
The wall being seen and the grumbling stomach sensation being felt are both being experienced in the same space of awareness and they are only perceived as "separate parts" of what makes up the whole experience in this moment when the mind adds labels and distinctions about seeing a wall "out there" and feeling the stomach "in here".

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

This is A body being experienced in a very close and intimate way.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The direct sensory experience of this mass of seemingly physical matter.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Being aware of sensations, seeing, hearing, smells, thoughts, etc. happening within a seemingly localized experience.
The physical experience is that the body is able to travel through the space around it and interact with other bodies and forms.

Can the 'body' do things?

I'm not sure about this one.
It appears that "doing" can be happening and that the body can be used for this "doing". But it seems more like the doing is happening through the body and not that the body itself is the doer of it.