The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Hmm. "Seeing" that there is no real self. I'm certain that we are all interconnected, that there is an illusion of 'me' and 'out there'... But this knowing is very yet intellectual. As I've heard/read/seen others describe their awakening experience, I realize there is a veil that has not yet fallen for me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping to find personal assistance. What can I look at to help to break this veil? I have been on a solo journey for a very long time, with MUCH progress, and much satisfaction in that progress. Yet I am also aware that I am still seeing from a Individual, separate self point of view.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would hope for personal, specific responses (challenges) to my current viewpoint, to my beliefs that I've not yet seen clearly. I would expect someone to be not only further along on this journey, but also able to feel-into the experience I am having... so as best to respond usefully.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been oriented toward a Greater Self, toward a Presence, toward a Mystery.. for many many years. I have been and am open to inquiry. My work for myself and with clients (therapeutically) also contains this essence of a greater unknown, greater mystery.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

PS: I'm in Pacific Northwest, Portland Oregon

Hi Katharyn.

and welcome to the forum.

Would you like me to call you like that or do you prefer another name?

My name is Luchana and I can walk with you here if you are ok?

I would hope for personal, specific responses (challenges) to my current viewpoint, to my beliefs that I've not yet seen clearly. I would expect someone to be not only further along on this journey, but also able to feel-into the experience I am having... so as best to respond usefully.

Yeah, something like that is going on here. but I will ask questions, not give responses and your job so to speak is to look, but not think and reply from experience.

Before we start can you tell me

What do you expect will happen seeing that there is no inherent self ?
How will life change?
How will you change?


Sending love,
Luchana

My apology Luchana, for my delayed response. I expected to get an email alerting me of a reply here. I had expected a long wait. (Both are ideas I guess I made up!)

Will we be conducting our work (my inquiry) here... in this forum? Instead of email? or zoom? I just want to manage my expectations. This forum may be a bit clumsy for me to write in. but I'll figure it out.


I do go by Katharyn (pronounced just like Catherine, Kathryn, etc)

Before we start can you tell me

What do you expect will happen seeing that there is no inherent self ?
How will life change?
How will you change?

What do you expect will happen seeing that there is no inherent self ?

First of all, I realize I have imported stories from others of ‘the experience’ of the falling away of the belief in self. I find myself (comparing and) noticing that I have not had the perceptual changes (visual, auditory..) that others report. I’m aware of doing this comparison.
But I’m also aware of a deep satisfaction with right where I am – taking a sense of relaxation and ease-in-my-being from hearing/reading teachers pointing to ‘if this resonates with you, you are already in process’.
I’ve come to the conclusion – when it shows up is when it shows up. I don’t need to nor CAN I chase down this experience. What needs to move or shift or be let go of.. I don’t see it directly yet. When that moment comes, when I see what that is, I guess maybe then ‘something happens’.

So – What do I expect will be different??
• I have to admit that I DO expect to have physical-perception changes. Right or wrong, I notice I DO expect that.
• I also expect to more deeply relax into how life shows up, Exactly As It Is. I still watch myself getting disturbed that things don’t go as I wish. Not often, but still…. My aging dog, for example. MUST he pee on the carpet AGAIN? REALLY? (That kinda thing.)
• I expect to have a profound sense of interconnectivity – I believe this, profoundly, but it must be mostly cognitive right now. I can remember it, call it to mind easily. But… I do have to ‘call up the knowing’.

Other thoughts arise… but they seem to point to hopes and or fears.

How will life change?

Probably not much at all. I will continue to do work I love (I’m a psychotherapist). I will continue being someone who recharges alone (“introvert”) but hopefully will take action to get nourishing connections with others more than today.

I will probably still continue to struggle with bad habits: BUT perhaps (a hope?) as I continue to wonder how to tackle all the piles, disorder in my home space, maybe I can become free of the brutal (inner) force that makes me shut down to it vs. engage with it. So, maybe some new freedom to engage with more generative, healthful ways of being.

I have for decades profoundly realized (mentally, and viscerally) that there is only one Presence, it is Consciousness itself. And this walk is just taking me deeper into the heart of that lived truth. “That which I look for, I look with.”

Even with the life-long inner work I’ve done, I am sure that there are still slivers and shards of old limiting beliefs or fears that need to be addressed. I expect to continue looking into these.

How will you change?

I hope that the change will bring a richer access to intuitive content. Working with clients today, I utilize my body-sense-intuition a great deal. I would welcome that being less limited to ‘my body’, ‘my intuition’. I think Life must be much wiser.

Again – I hope that I would be more able and willing to engage in activities that create more health, more beauty, more peace in my environment.


I hope that this addresses the initial questions to give us a good start. I look forward to your questions.

Warmly,
Katharyn

Hi Katharyn,

My apology Luchana, for my delayed response. I expected to get an email alerting me of a reply here. I had expected a long wait. (Both are ideas I guess I made up!)

Oh, no worries, yes sometimes there are no notifications, did you checked if you subscribe for this thread?

Will we be conducting our work (my inquiry) here... in this forum? Instead of email? or zoom? I just want to manage my expectations. This forum may be a bit clumsy for me to write in. but I'll figure it out.

We can have a conversation here or via mail or also we can have a video calls (from the feedback and my experience in the last 6-8 months it works really great) so if you are ok we can try like that?

Thank you for taking time to answer the questions regarding expectations. It is important because expectations can be hindrance in the way of seeing what's already here and something may be dismissed, ignored and thrown away since it doesn't much the expected outcome. From my experience and can share that it is never, ever the way we imaged it to be.

First of all, I realize I have imported stories from others of ‘the experience’ of the falling away of the belief in self. I find myself (comparing and) noticing that I have not had the perceptual changes (visual, auditory..) that others report. I’m aware of doing this comparison.
But I’m also aware of a deep satisfaction with right where I am – taking a sense of relaxation and ease-in-my-being from hearing/reading teachers pointing to ‘if this resonates with you, you are already in process’.
I’ve come to the conclusion – when it shows up is when it shows up. I don’t need to nor CAN I chase down this experience. What needs to move or shift or be let go of.. I don’t see it directly yet. When that moment comes, when I see what that is, I guess maybe then ‘something happens’.

Lovely. Yes we all hear, watch and read of someone else experience and we are most likely to compare that with our own experience, but no one can say how is going to be for us. Only you can know in a way... and what is happening for you is the only valid thing.

• I have to admit that I DO expect to have physical-perception changes. Right or wrong, I notice I DO expect that.
• I also expect to more deeply relax into how life shows up, Exactly As It Is. I still watch myself getting disturbed that things don’t go as I wish. Not often, but still…. My aging dog, for example. MUST he pee on the carpet AGAIN? REALLY? (That kinda thing.)
• I expect to have a profound sense of interconnectivity – I believe this, profoundly, but it must be mostly cognitive right now. I can remember it, call it to mind easily. But… I do have to ‘call up the knowing’.

Nice, but seeing that there is no manager of life doesn't mean that the resistance and all old patterns or emotions will be swept away as if with a magic stick.. there is no you even now and triggers (the dog is peeing on the carpet) is still happening, no?

Probably not much at all. I will continue to do work I love (I’m a psychotherapist). I will continue being someone who recharges alone (“introvert”) but hopefully will take action to get nourishing connections with others more than today.

:-) yep, life continues as it is including everything. And taking actions to get nourishing connections may or may not happen...

I will probably still continue to struggle with bad habits: BUT perhaps (a hope?) as I continue to wonder how to tackle all the piles, disorder in my home space, maybe I can become free of the brutal (inner) force that makes me shut down to it vs. engage with it. So, maybe some new freedom to engage with more generative, healthful ways of being.

Exactly, so called bad habits wont go away, but in a way it is easier to looked at those when the belief that these are MINE bad habits is no more there.

Even with the life-long inner work I’ve done, I am sure that there are still slivers and shards of old limiting beliefs or fears that need to be addressed. I expect to continue looking into these.

yes, it is never ending unfolding so to speak.. and that's the beauty, the more we look, the freer experience becomes.

I hope that the change will bring a richer access to intuitive content. Working with clients today, I utilize my body-sense-intuition a great deal. I would welcome that being less limited to ‘my body’, ‘my intuition’. I think Life must be much wiser.

Again – I hope that I would be more able and willing to engage in activities that create more health, more beauty, more peace in my environment.

We all want more health, more beauty and peace - that is so natural for us as humans, but the buffet is open and there are many other possibilities there.. what if there is a room for sickness, sadness, and anxiety also?
What if the freedom is not FROM, but WITH.

Please read my comments few times and inquire is there a resistance to any of them?

Are you ready to dive?

here is my e-mail - you can message me there to see when it is going to be possible to make a video call if you are ok.

luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Sending much love,
Luchana

Hi Katharyn,

after our meeting the other way here we go with the inquiry


Tell me what do you do in order to think?

How do you make a thought into existence?


Look directly and do not "think" about how to answer.



Sending love,
Luchana

Luchana,
Thank you for the further questions. I was having a hard time finding a 'reaction' to things previously said, tho I will still see if any of that comes up for response now.

Tell me what do you do in order to think?

I don't 'do' anything. Unless I engage with a thought that arises, then maybe my do-ing is chasing after some promised satisfaction and/or resolution by chasing from thought to thought to thought.

So thinking arises, thoughts arise. And the habit of engaging persists, though much less than in years past...

I have noticed one form of engagement-with-thought that is particularly sticky for me (because it seems enjoyable ..to the ego) is 'narration'. I narrate my experience as if Teaching (or explaining) to some future someone or to ?my self?

How do you make a thought into existence?

Directly looking now... When directly looking, there is silence ... but I notice sort of pre-verbalizations, almost the gurgling of (what seems to be) a sound wanting(?) to form and... if I wasn't intentionally looking/observing, I suspect I would then follow the urge to 'complete the sound' into a thought. It's a response like scratching an itch. Habitual, reflexive.

I also notice that a way I bring a thought into existence has to do with a habitual reaction to sense experience. To label. To name. To judge.


After writing this, without editing for 'rightness', and re-reading what I wrote - I can sense places where delusion is probably informing my response. There is a shakiness, instability, like the answers would change with any wisp of air that might go by.

With love,
Katharyn

Hi Katharyn,

you did a good looking.

I have noticed one form of engagement-with-thought that is particularly sticky for me (because it seems enjoyable ..to the ego) is 'narration'. I narrate my experience as if Teaching (or explaining) to some future someone or to ?my self?

What is "ego" when you looked at it here now?
How "ego" is experienced exactly?
As an image? A sound? Sensation?

So thinking arises, thoughts arise. And the habit of engaging persists, though much less than in years past...

How that one which is engaging shows up at experienced?
Can you spot it?

After writing this, without editing for 'rightness', and re-reading what I wrote - I can sense places where delusion is probably informing my response. There is a shakiness, instability, like the answers would change with any wisp of air that might go by.

nice :-) shakiness and instability are welcome here ... this means that some believes are being questioned.
Keep looking

Sending love,
Luchana

What is "ego" when you looked at it here now?

My understanding of ‘looking’ has modified, I am now looking for the sense-based information/experience. ‘Direct experience’.

So when I look for ‘what is ego’… first trying to find ‘ego’ leads me to feel the ‘invitation’ to go into my head, into thoughts. I don’t. And I then have a recognition that I HAVE to rely on thoughts in order to have any sense of ‘what ego is’. I cannot find anything directly.

I recognized in my previous response, about “ego enjoying”, I notice that what is left (when there is no ego) is just a memory of a positive experience, named ‘enjoyment’.

How is "ego" experienced exactly?

It can’t be experienced directly. It can only be thought about.

As an image? A sound? Sensation?

I can feel that there are thought forms that want to reinforce that ‘ego’ looks thru the eyes (for example). It is also thought forms that draw attention to images of the body, as if body ‘contains’/is central.

I just reached for my coffee, and I noticed the internal languaging of “I” “reach for..”
Wow. Such a persistent subtle narration… reinforcing (the centrality, the agency, the doer-ship)….

How that one which is engaging shows up at experienced?

I THINK the question is “as experienced” instead of “at experienced”. I’ll try that.

When that one which engages shows up, (oh wow) IT is not experienced UNTIL thought about.
Just like in the ‘reaching for coffee…’

This is a little overwhelming. How subtle, how persistent, how constant is this reinforcing of the (self, I, center, subject). Daunting at this moment when the thought arises ‘how to stop ALL of that’. (BUT that is a thought… which can be ignored!)


Questions arise: will the nature of memories change when the centrality of self/ego/I dissolves. Will this be a loss?

Thank you for the questions! Still experiencing 'oh shit, wow'.

Warmly,
Katharyn

Hi Katharyn,

you did a very good looking!

So when I look for ‘what is ego’… first trying to find ‘ego’ leads me to feel the ‘invitation’ to go into my head, into thoughts. I don’t. And I then have a recognition that I HAVE to rely on thoughts in order to have any sense of ‘what ego is’. I cannot find anything directly.

It can’t be experienced directly. It can only be thought about.

Right. No "ego" as such..only thought and sensations.

This is a little overwhelming. How subtle, how persistent, how constant is this reinforcing of the (self, I, center, subject). Daunting at this moment when the thought arises ‘how to stop ALL of that’. (BUT that is a thought… which can be ignored!)

Yea..it feels like that when we look directly, some believes are shaken and that is actually great :-)

Let's look more closely at thoughts since thoughts are creating the illusion of a separate me at the first place.
We are going to do an experiment.


Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Sending much love,
Luchana

I have done this exercise a couple of times now. In this 2nd 'running' of the experiment, I will discuss my results, but also want to report that it brought up a lot of tears, tears that feel to be 'sort of sadness', but mostly overwhelm. Maybe even hopelessness.

I was initially surprised how constant it is that ANY thought will be about ME. In the five minutes I marked OTHER only once each time. And Self at least 10-15 times.

As I sat with the tears, and the hopelessness and the overwhelm, I will say that I eventually did begin to wonder 'to whom is this overwhelming?' I can't find that Who, just aware of the body-sadness-expressing. It feels that there is deep reservoir of this sadness, as it keeps trickling through. And I guess I can say 'there is just sadness here'. And I can be with that.

In that looking, I can also feel the pull towards thoughts that come after/with/alongside the tears. Blaming, shaming. Watching that pull, but not interested in going there.

I started writing "in the hopelessness" and now recognize how very familiar 'hopelessness' IS to this body-mind! (No wonder it showed up!)

Hi Katharyn,

you did a very good looking with that exercise!

I was initially surprised how constant it is that ANY thought will be about ME. In the five minutes I marked OTHER only once each time. And Self at least 10-15 times.

Great! Upon closer investigation actually it turns our that also "the other" thought is about the self, me just in a hidden way.
Actually ALL thoughts are about me. How does this feels?
Strange, normal, both, neither?

As I sat with the tears, and the hopelessness and the overwhelm, I will say that I eventually did begin to wonder 'to whom is this overwhelming?' I can't find that Who, just aware of the body-sadness-expressing. It feels that there is deep reservoir of this sadness, as it keeps trickling through. And I guess I can say 'there is just sadness here'. And I can be with that.

Maybe this is what was being felt yea.., it feels so sad, so overwhelming...often when curtain believes are shaken it can be like that.
And how you beautifully notice the sadness can be there.

In that looking, I can also feel the pull towards thoughts that come after/with/alongside the tears. Blaming, shaming. Watching that pull, but not interested in going there.

Exactly, thoughts come almost immediately after the experience and start labelling and judging it. So good that you can see that and not be drown by the story.


Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?


Let me know how it goes
Sending love,
Luchana

Hi Katharyn,
here is where to look after our meeting on which we moved trough the previous exercise with the "I" .

Can thought experience thought?

Can thought experience anything?

Can an inherent self be found anywhere, outside of thought?

Sending love,
Luchana

Can thought experience thought?

I can’t know for sure (can’t experience directly). All I know is that a thought comes and it goes. I can notice that what I experience is one thought is often followed by another thought that arises (apparently) from this body-mind.

Can thought experience anything?

I want to say absolutely not. It is “vapor”. But – I have no direct experience into ‘what it is like to be a thought’…. I don’t think there IS any such experience but relying on direct experience – it is like asking if air can experience anything. I don’t know directly.

Can an inherent self be found anywhere, outside of thought?

An inherent self is only ‘found’ in thought, by thought, as thought. There is no ‘thing’ that is an inherent self.

Hi Katharyn,

you did a very good looking.

I want to say absolutely not. It is “vapor”. But – I have no direct experience into ‘what it is like to be a thought’…. I don’t think there IS any such experience but relying on direct experience – it is like asking if air can experience anything. I don’t know directly.

Can a thought about a hot chocolate experience the chocolate? :-)


Let's make another exercise

Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.

Put a fruit aside for now and for the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit.....feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.

Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference. Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.

Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible. Write about it here. What was the experience like?

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:-
- Imaginary fruit
- Real fruit
- Description

Sending much love,
Luchana