The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand there is no me but there is still something claiming doership and selfness.

What are you looking for at LU?
End the belief in a separate self and dissolve the sense of lack.Any other “goal “ seems pointless The peeling the layers of the onion appears endless .. the digging into the bodymind layers just keeps finding little fears and stories that appear to be me seem to be never ending and a fruitless endeavour . I see the defensive measures of the mind but there is someone that wants this to stop. The desire to control experience and be entertained… the movie can appear boring when I am not in fantasy world …I know this is thought yes …but thought is like having a house guest that won’t leave is eating all your food and telling you what to do and is complaining about the service!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity and help with focus … Living without asking why( which has improved lately)I have done many satsangs and the teachers say it’s the belief in the seperate self that is the problem.And it’s easy to stop believing in Santa Clause ( yes the Santa clause)etc You are not the doer but you must do something. Paradox is a bugger.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Retreats satsangs with Rupert Spira and then Francis Lucille.major experience listening to Ultimate Pointers ( quotes from Nissargadatta). spontaneous meditation with “uncontrollable body movements , gigantic peace glimpses lots of reading lots of videos meditation grief fear depression hopelessness insights glimpses .. Christian mystics Jesus affirmations trauma work God Ramana Ángels drugs mantras chanting yoga Finding no me but still having an I

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Good evening Judi, vince here. Let's do this...

I understand there is no me but there is still something claiming doership and selfness.

How do you know this?
Is it what thoughts say?
Are there sensations involved?
Describe "doership" & "selfness"?

End the belief in a separate self

How do you experience being separate? Oh, wait. How do you experience believing in this?

the sense of lack.

Presumably a "sense of lack" is not the same as an actual "lack"?

The peeling the layers of the onion appears endless ..

I have some bad news and some good news, and they are both the same thing. It is endless... Hahaaha.

the digging into the bodymind layers just keeps finding little fears and stories that appear to be me seem to be never ending and a fruitless endeavour

There are countless rabbit holes and none of them have a bottom.
The mind seeks satisfaction, but it's never satisfied.
If it does get satisfaction, it doesn't even acknowledge it before it finds the next rabbit hole to dive into.
The way around this is to accept, to trust, even to celebrate that we can't possibly know anything.
Everything is an interpretation peculiar to Judi. Enjoy the mystery of the how or why of everything.
Now this is a big one.. the only thing that is actual is current experiencing, and even the awareness of that is an interpretation.

but there is someone that wants this to stop.

Hmm, we have to get more specific than normal social language here. There isn't someone who wants it to stop. There are thoughts that say if it stops then the unpleasant sensations will not be there. Is that more accurate? (or what is?)

…but thought is like having a house guest that won’t leave is eating all your food and telling you what to do and is complaining about the service!

Ungrateful barstard! ..but we are not going to evict this guest, we are just going to give it the same attention that we do to the sound of the refrigerator.

with love

vince

Good evening Judi, vince here. Let's do this...

I understand there is no me but there is still something claiming doership and selfness.

How do you know this?

When I look for a me through sensations there’s isn’t one. But I suppose from circumstantial outer occurrences there appears the need to choose. Circumstances appearing and demanding decisions from the so called me and which engages the belief in choice from a doer.

Is it what thoughts say?


Yes it is what thoughts say. and the feeling of density and weight from the body.

Are there sensations involved?

Yes lots and lots of sensations.

Describe "doership" & "selfness"?


Doership as in :choices present themselves and need to be decided by “me” choices contain the idea of a future.As in : choose A or B by tomorrow , in a week etc, or C , D or Z will occur.Thinking never works choosing anything and usually after the choice is made thinking won’t like it but yet time and space appear to demand a choice. I try to stay out of it but again it appears as a requirement.Selfness as in an existence of a seer hearer feeler thinker etc

End the belief in a separate self

How do you experience being separate? Oh, wait. How do you experience believing in this?


Thoughts (conditioned thinking )sensations from the body.If there is no separate self then why does reality appear limited to the confines/ perceptions of the body mind

the sense of lack.

Presumably a "sense of lack" is not the same as an actual "lack"?

I suppose I mean sense of lack by thinking somethings not quite right about this and the what next what now programming , Wizard of Oz questions: where is home.

The peeling the layers of the onion appears endless ..

I have some bad news and some good news, and they are both the same thing. It is endless... Hahaaha.

I don’t mind the onion peeling per say but do we have to put a story on each layer as to who what why the layer is there…most trauma and shadow work seems to be about attaching or finding the story and then letting the story have its say but isn’t that continuing the story of “me” which feels like it strengthens the belief in a me me me my trauma my etc etc .

There are countless rabbit holes and none of them have a bottom.
The mind seeks satisfaction, but it's never satisfied.
If it does get satisfaction, it doesn't even acknowledge it before it finds the next rabbit hole to dive into.
The way around this is to accept, to trust, even to celebrate that we can't possibly know anything.
Everything is an interpretation peculiar to Judi. Enjoy the mystery of the how or why of everything.
Now this is a big one.. the only thing that is actual is current experiencing, and even the awareness of that is an interpretation.

but there is someone that wants this to stop

.

Hmm, we have to get more specific than normal social language here. There isn't someone who wants it to stop. There are thoughts that say if it stops then the unpleasant sensations will not be there. Is that more accurate? (or what is?)

Yes I would say that is more accurate It’s thoughts.

…but thought is like having a house guest that won’t leave is eating all your food and telling you what to do and is complaining about the service!

Ungrateful barstard! ..but we are not going to evict this guest, we are just going to give it the same attention that we do to the sound of the refrigerator.

Ha or the sound of tinnitus … not sure I engaged the quotes correctly.Thank you

with love

vince
[/quote]

Good evening Judi,

not sure I engaged the quotes correctly.

You almost got it.
As I want you to respond to every ? (even if it doesn't seem like a question) you just highlight that before hitting the quote button.
Always make sure that your cursor is at the end of the text before using that quote button. What you quote will appear where the cursor was in the editor pane. You can use "preview" button to see if you've done it ok.

When I look for a me through sensations there’s isn’t one. But I suppose from circumstantial outer occurrences there appears the need to choose. Circumstances appearing and demanding decisions from the so called me and which engages the belief in choice from a doer.

I will attempt to paraphrase you. Tell me if it is accurate?
"I look, I can't find one (a self) but I deduce from my interpretation of circumstances that logic says one must exist."
Polish this if it's not 100% accurate...

Is it what thoughts say?

Yes it is what thoughts say. and the feeling of density and weight from the body.

Ok, this is both interesting and valuable.
i want you to watch and see if those sensations seem to verify what thoughts say.?

choices present themselves and need to be decided by “me”

Have a look at this article for a story about how those choices happen. ? https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/
..but it's the "needed to be decided by me" bit that we need to examine.
Where does that injunction originate?

I try to stay out of it but again it appears as a requirement

Yes, mind can be very persistent.
Brute force simple doesn't work. What we resist becomes stronger.
We need skillful means for this...
Rmember the phrase I used yesterday "the sound of the refrigerator" ? See if you can isolate the story that puts that into the background. ..or rather incorporates it into the background tapestry?

.If there is no separate self then why does reality appear limited to the confines/ perceptions of the body mind

Constioning.
It does have practical value to behave AS IF that confinement was actual. (communicating in the consensus reality. Avoiding busses when crossing the road. etc)

Presumably a "sense of lack" is not the same as an actual "lack"?

I suppose I mean sense of lack by thinking somethings not quite right about this

Ah, you missed my intent here. i was wanting you to see the difference between feeling like there is something missing and there actually being missing.
i do get your response though. ..and good insight seeing that it is thoughts that create the 'sense' of lack.
I wonder if "lack" doesn't also mean "inadequacy"?

I don’t mind the onion peeling per say but do we have to put a story on each layer as to who what why the layer is there

No. Absolutely not. Once we reach the point of recognizing that there are always stories somewhere behind all of our responses, it becomes unnecessary to find the actual story to end the unwelcome response to it. Many of those original stories were lost by the time we were 4 or 5 years old.
Certainy the mind would like the imagined satisfaction or exposing them, but in reality mind is never satisfied.

its say but isn’t that continuing the story of “me” which feels like it strengthens the belief in a me me me my trauma my etc etc .

It certainly could do this. There comes a point where (if we are being pedantic) we would say that things happened to this body, rather than things happened to me. At that point identification is weakening significantly.

Ha or the sound of tinnitus

Yes, good one.
So this is a little subtle. (maybe)
If I ask you if the Statue of Liberty is actual for you now, (and you were pedantic - which we are) you would have to say "I don't know."
If I ask if anything that you are currently not aware of exists, you would have to say the same thing.
So, does a self exist if you are not thinking (being aware of) about one. ?


with love

vince

Good evening Judi

not sure I engaged the quotes correctly.

You almost got it.
As I want you to respond to every ? (even if it doesn't seem like a question) you just highlight that before hitting the quote button.
Always make sure that your cursor is at the end of the text before using that quote button. What you quote will appear where the cursor was in the editor pane. You can use "preview" button to see if you've done it ok.

Okay I think I have got it but I think I have made it more complicated than it actually is... I have the gift of ADHD.

When I look for a me through sensations there’s isn’t one. But I suppose from circumstantial outer occurrences there appears the need to choose. Circumstances appearing and demanding decisions from the so called me and which engages the belief in choice from a doer.

I will attempt to paraphrase you. Tell me if it is accurate?
"I look, I can't find one (a self) but I deduce from my interpretation of circumstances that logic says one must exist."
Polish this if it's not 100% accurate...

Yes it is relying on thought and thinking that thought can bring logical information and decisions based on past thoughts and future projections.It's also believing there is a controller of a self that through thought this body/mind self is naviagting it's way through the process of choices and life decisions.Even though when I look for an actual self I only find layers of thoughts and beliefs or bodily sensations that have thoughts or a story attached to them .The bodily sensations either feel uncomfortable or comfortable .When the sensations appear neutral it's when I don't notice sensations because I am distracted by objects ,distracting thoughts etc.Then if a distracting thought has a charge I notice discomfort and start the process of selfness .Am I discribing this somewhat clearly?

Is it what thoughts say?

Yes it is what thoughts say. and the feeling of density and weight from the body.

Ok, this is both interesting and valuable.
i want you to watch and see if those sensations seem to verify what thoughts say.?

It seems there is an underlying thought that thinks any body sensations that feel contracted or tense mean something is wrong and if the body is relaxed or neutral then everything is ok.The actual thoughts that appear dont seem to really have a connection in controling sensations other than a belief that thoughts control sensations.

choices present themselves and need to be decided by “me”

Have a look at this article for a story about how those choices happen. ? https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/
..but it's the "needed to be decided by me" bit that we need to examine.Where does that injunction originate?
Yes I read that article.It mentions that they can only find the delay betwen the brain "charge "and the decision with very rudamentary actions.I.E .Left hand or right hand movments.Turning the head decisions etc.And another concept to replace another concept....In regards to the injunction question:Outward circumstances appear which engage the search for how should I respond then thoughts and feelings arise that are past or future related.They seem to come in patterns of different thought packages.Repetitive ..in other words,one thought follows another thought that appears to relate to a previous thought thus giving the illusion that logic and deduction are the way to find a decision.When I think thoughts arise as any other object in my current awareness and don't have to a relation ship to one another ,liken the the thoughts to a fridge noise let's say..then thought packages appear in groups and appear to follow a "logical" process,which then appear legitimate and the circle continues.If it was one random thought at a time then it is easier to not attach any import to the thought

I try to stay out of it but again it appears as a requirement

Yes, mind can be very persistent.
Brute force simple doesn't work. What we resist becomes stronger.
We need skillful means for this...
Rmember the phrase I used yesterday "the sound of the refrigerator" ? See if you can isolate the story that puts that into the background. ..or rather incorporates it into the background tapestry?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.Find the story,then put it in the background or weave it into the background tapestry? Ah ok,don't resist the thought or the sensations but don't give them any importance as we don't find import in a fridge noise.This is easy said than done when out in the blaring world with so many appearences are happening .Like trying to not think about the controls when playing a video game

If there is no separate self then why does reality appear limited to the confines/ perceptions of the body mind

Constioning.
It does have practical value to behave AS IF that confinement was actual. (communicating in the consensus reality. Avoiding busses when crossing the road. etc) Yes avoiding buses and cars etc.That I would think is part of the primal brain functions to take care of I suppose ,the workings of that body/mind section,for lack of better words.So it seems like after conditioning the thoughts are appearing as if they are coming from the normal survival part of the brain but are coming from conditioning .

I suppose I mean sense of lack by thinking somethings not quite right about this

Ah, you missed my intent here. i was wanting you to see the difference between feeling like there is something missing and there actually being missing.
i do get your response though. ..and good insight seeing that it is thoughts that create the 'sense' of lack.
I wonder if "lack" doesn't also mean "inadequacy"? Yes that is another way of putting it,what is, isn't enough and it must mean I am inadequate so something needs to be done so I feel adequate."I am" not enough but there are several others that appear...so do you think inadaquacy is a root belief?

I don’t mind the onion peeling per say but do we have to put a story on each layer as to who what why the layer is there

No. Absolutely not. Once we reach the point of recognizing that there are always stories somewhere behind all of our responses, it becomes unnecessary to find the actual story to end the unwelcome response to it. Many of those original stories were lost by the time we were 4 or 5 years old.
Certainy the mind would like the imagined satisfaction or exposing them, but in reality mind is never satisfied. Yes I do see how mind is never satisfied always seeking and doubting seeking and doubting

its say but isn’t that continuing the story of “me” which feels like it strengthens the belief in a me me me my trauma my etc etc .

It certainly could do this. There comes a point where (if we are being pedantic) we would say that things happened to this body, rather than things happened to me. At that point identification is weakening significantly. Yes pedantic-ness is required

Ha or the sound of tinnitus

Yes, good one.
So this is a little subtle. (maybe)
If I ask you if the Statue of Liberty is actual for you now, (and you were pedantic - which we are) you would have to say "I don't know."
If I ask if anything that you are currently not aware of exists, you would have to say the same thing.
So, does a self exist if you are not thinking (being aware of) about one. ? There are thoughts and sensations(sight ,sound etc) If the body moves around the thoughts and sensations appear to change.And yes if I was being pedantic I would have to say "I don't know" because the Statue of Liberty is not in my current experience.Body/mind appears in my current experience but who or what is aware of even any current experience.. I don't know.
with love

vince
Thanks and thanks.I think I have the quote thing down
Judi

Good evening Judi, Once you get the quote thing, it's really easy, but getting it isn't.
You are quoting your previous answer. What you need to do is quote my question (?) then click the cursor after that and respond. ..but don't worry about it. What you are doing is fine. (the blue text for your answers) It's all intended to make reading it easier. To see what answers go with what questions.

I have the gift of ADHD.

I really like that you see it as a gift.

Then if a distracting thought has a charge I notice discomfort and start the process of selfness

Is the process of selfness only mental? Are there sensations? If so, what is the relationship between the thoughts and sensations?

It seems there is an underlying thought that thinks any body sensations that feel contracted or tense mean something is wrong

Hmm, this is where a story arrives to explain sensations. Sensation followed by story. i was asking if a story happens that is then verified by sensations (feelings)

"the sound of the refrigerator"? See if you can isolate the story that puts that into the background. ..or rather incorporates it into the background tapestry?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Hmm, yes, I was a bit obscure.. It's probably never been a conscious thought stream (story) but still it exists.
If the motor in the fridge became faulty and started making disturbing sounds, you would notice it immediately and additional stories would happen, about getting it fixed, or will it explode or catch fire etc.
While it sounds normal, the story is "it's just a sound and I don't need to even notice it." So, unless your attention is pointed to it for some reason, it just becomes part of the general sound environment. (along with the clock ticking or sounds of birds or traffic, etc)
Now, just as you don't DO that thing with the fridge sound, you can't DO that with thoughts. ..but it can happen.
The first necessary condition for it to happen is to know that it is possible. It is!
My relationship with (my) thoughts is like that of a really good and close friend.
A friendship where I can tell them to shut up and they don't take offence. (because they know it's about me. Not them.) A friendship where I can be with them but not engaged and they are ok with that.

Ah ok,don't resist the thought or the sensations but don't give them any importance as we don't find import in a fridge noise.

Ah yes. You got it.

This is easy said than done when out in the blaring world with so many appearences are happening

True, I forget how it used to be sometimes. Here, words happen. i don't think about them before they do.
Like the statue of liberty, the thoughts behind the words don't (seem to) exist because they get no attention.
This comes as there is a total lack of concern about how others might perceive me. (I can't control others interpretations)

Like trying to not think about the controls when playing a video game

It does eventually happen. You don't think about doing up buttons on your cloths, do you?

so do you think inadaquacy is a root belief?

I hadn't thought about that, but it is a cultural more. "always try harder" etc.

we would say that things happened to this body, rather than things happened to me.

Yes pedantic-ness is required

Then I would say "things happen." (not to anyone)

Body/mind appears in my current experience

You are saying this because you think it. If you were describing experience, you would say that "body/mind appears in your current experience - then it doesn't - then it does - then it doesn't.

but who or what is aware of even any current experience.. I don't know.

This is a really big one. If there is a who or what, then it remains a mystery.
'you' are a verb. Not a noun.
The only 'you' that can be found is your current experiencing. (excuse the inadequacy of language here)
Everything else is 2nd hand information. Concepts ABOUT mental images.

with love

vince

Good afternoon Vince,
This process is very interesting.I wrote my answers and questions yesterday afternoon.Checked and checked.Hit submit.On my phone later in the evening I checked the forum,my answers weren't there! Thought came up with all kinds of reasons why it wasn't there,even paranoia! Thoughts let go and I was glad the post wasn't sent, as I had more time to ponder your answers and questions.

Is the process of selfness only mental? Are there sensations? If so, what is the relationship between the thoughts and sensations?

At this moment I don't see a direct relationship between thoughts and sensations.There are thoughts appearing,bodily sensations appearing,sounds...etc.They relate in the sense that they all appear in "my" awareness.

I was asking if a story happens that is then verified by sensations (feelings)

This morning someone I love said something that I really wanted to reply to,but the reply contained wanting to change or influence the persons decision.As it was something they would do in the near future ( and not a danger to themselves or another),rather than reply I allowed the thoughts and sensations to be what they were and accepted them.I know longer felt the compelling need to change the persons mind or manipulate the situation.I thought about the Statue of Liberty anology and realized,if a person,place ,thing,event... whatever is not happening in my immediate experience why take immediate action

You don't think about doing up buttons on your cloths, do you?

Only if I'm very tired ha but even then once engaged it doesn't require thinking.There was observation of thoughts this morning as to whether they are actually sounds happening in the moment.Are they sounds?They appear in the mind as sounds but they can't be heard outside the singular mind.Do they really exist at all in reality...in other words,intelligence still exists without thought.Trees don't think about growing,grass doesn't think about growing,they just are what they are in the manifest.

Everything else is 2nd hand information. Concepts ABOUT mental images.

Yes...
thanks and thanks
love


Judi

Is the process of selfness only mental? Are there sensations? If so, what is the relationship between the thoughts and sensations?

They relate in the sense that they all appear in "my" awareness.

Hmmm, this would mean that they relate to 'you'. i was meaning to ask if they had a relationship with each other. ..but I want you to answer this by describing your experience. (memory of experience is ok) So, next time you find yourself 'selfing', firstly look to see if there are sensations involved, then look to thoughts, then see if the sensations and thoughts are interacting.

whatever is not happening in my immediate experience why take immediate action

I like this. Story here is that it is wisdom. That is it a perspective that opens up possibilities greatly.
Although you didn't say it in words, I get the impression that previously there were sensations that you called compulsions, that fed into the thoughts of immediate action.

intelligence still exists without thought.

Yes, a bsolutely. When we say that happenings happen, there is a trust that they happen in according to need. After awakening we sometimes talk about synchronicity.
Somehow things that need to happen, get done. (mostly) Is there some kind of intelligence behind it? That's a mystery.

It looks like you got the quote thing sorted.
You can just quote part of a line if you want to respond to it separately.

with love

vince

Hi Vince,

So, next time you find yourself 'selfing', firstly look to see if there are sensations involved, then look to thoughts, then see if the sensations and thoughts are interacting.

At this moment they appear to be interacting as I am currently having repetitive thoughts regarding a near future expectation.The sensation of tension or nervousness seems to highten during the repetitive expectation thoughts .But the sensation of tension or contractions remain even though there are other thoughts that appear inbetween the repetitive thoughts regarding an expectation.I can't say if they relate as this perspective is from the thought that there is a me.. If I refer to the past..I woke up this morning and immediately had unpleasant sensations and after that,thought said I am sad.I am tired.I had no motivation to get up.I went back to sleep and got up an hour later.Thought said meditate a bit...I then recalled the dream I had of my daughter(who had passed in 2015),she was alive in the dream,but sort of in trouble and evasive..It seems impossible to know which thoughts interact with sensations.I can try to explain this better....Woke up with a sensation that was labeled as sadness,the sensation appeared without recognition of any thought before the sensation. but the dream was recalled a bit later.,that again was labeled as sad.Then some what later contractions and future expectation thoughts start appearing.As if the projecting in the future appears to divert an earlier sensation thought cluster..in other words to not be with the thought/sensation cluster labeled sadness?So to answer you honestly...I don't know.

I get the impression that previously there were sensations that you called compulsions, that fed into the thoughts of immediate action.

Yes they are again appearing today and there is some strain in staying out of the story and not acting.I hear advice and sometimes I am able to follow the advice about trusting but isn't that just another concept?It's difficult to remove the doubt thorn with a trust thorn when both thorns are concepts.

Thanks again

love

Judi

Good evening Judi,

At this moment they appear to be interacting as I am currently having repetitive thoughts regarding a near future expectation. The sensation of tension or nervousness seems to heighten during the repetitive expectation thoughts

Ok, now we are getting close. Does that tension or nervousness seem to confirm the thoughts? Does it push you to action to change the situation? (or escape it?)

.I woke up this morning and immediately had unpleasant sensations and after that,thought said I am sad.I am tired.I had no motivation to get up.

Excellent. A great learning opportunity. ..and good seeing. You saw thought following sensation. ..and also saw how labelling sensation set the scene for a continuance.

.Then some what later contractions and future expectation thoughts start appearing.As if the projecting in the future appears to divert an earlier sensation thought cluster..in other words to not be with the thought/sensation cluster labeled sadness?

Ah, more good seeing. The call to action to escape the unpleasant sensation.
Remember, be relaxed and notice...
Nothing more. Just witness. No trying.

with love

vince

Good Afternoon Vince,

Ok, now we are getting close. Does that tension or nervousness seem to confirm the thoughts? Does it push you to action to change the situation? (or escape it?)

Yes when attaching to thought world,when there is body tension/restlessness sensations thought labels these sensations as bad/not wanted or there is a need of defense.This labeling of sensations then seem to confirm the validity of the first cluster thoughts and more thoughts appear that believe this is a signal that action is required either at that moment or in a future.Thoughts start appearing that are plan thoughts (future projections) or response thoughts(based on past experiences)
I now feel I am at a stage where I question a good many thoughts/actions /plans and the feeling fluculates between feeling stuck and should not take any action based on thought or feelings of relief

Excellent. A great learning opportunity. ..and good seeing. You saw thought following sensation. ..and also saw how labelling sensation set the scene for a continuance.

Yes but I later connected the thoughtless sensations upon waking with the unsettling dream I recalled later in the day.Sort of a delayed sensation reaction to sub-conscious thoughts.in other words,a timeline that appeared true...nightmare thoughts and images,having thoughtless sensations upon waking,then the thought labels,then a recall of unsettling dream that appeared to confirm the labeling thoughts ,after the waking sensations, were true.Thought says this is all concepts at the moment but doubt is lurking.

Remember, be relaxed and notice...Nothing more. Just witness. No trying.

Relax without trying.Do without doing Observe/witness while allowing sensations that are labeled "unrelaxed" to present themslves.Acceptance of sensations and feelings until I identify with a relaxed state.I then am relaxed to witness but there is commentary and appearance of effort/trying.I know not trying works but then there is a desire to maintain the not trying so trying begins again.A bit of a Catch 22,paradox etc.Solving paradox seems to be minds mission in life which appears to not be possible.I'd like to realize for sure that solving a paradox is not required and neither is trying.
Thanks and thanks

love

Judi

hi Judi, it's 12:30am here and i have to get up at 5:30 for the zoom meetup, so I will respond to you tomorrow evening. (hope to see you at the meet up)

love

vince

Hi vince
Yes okay.
Great meeting last night
Thanks

Love judi

Good evening Judi,

Great meeting last night

Yes it was. It's a shame that your internet connection kept breaking up.

Does that tension or nervousness seem to confirm the thoughts? Does it push you to action to change the situation? (or escape it?)

This labeling of sensations then seem to confirm the validity of the first cluster thoughts

Ah, excellent. You not only see that sensation are involved, but you see that it is the labelling of them that shapes behavior.

You know, I get the feeling that I am telling you stuff that you already know...

I now feel I am at a stage where I question a good many thoughts/actions /plans and the feeling fluctuates between feeling stuck and should not take any action based on thought or feelings of relief

So here we can be open to new responses.
The old way was to DO something to escape unpleasant emotions. Now by simply recognizing their presence they will change.
No intention. No choice. No decisions. Just watching (with good humor) is enough.

Thought says this is all concepts at the moment but doubt is lurking.

Language makes "doubt" sound like it is a thing, but what is it really?

Relax without trying.Do without doing Observe/witness while allowing sensations that are labelled "unrelaxed" to present themselves. Acceptance of sensations and feelings until I identify with a relaxed state. I then am relaxed to witness but there is a commentary and the appearance of effort/trying.I know not trying works but then there is a desire to maintain the not trying so trying begins again.A bit of a Catch 22, paradox etc. Solving paradox seems to be mind's mission in life which appears to not be possible. I'd like to realize for sure that solving a paradox is not required and neither is trying.

I get it! Apparent paradox' Don't do doing. This all appears to be goal-oriented, but it isn't.
If we conceptualize this, then these words are meant to stimulate the arising of intention. ..and intention is one of the conditions that might contribute to a happening.
If an intention arises to be a certain way and it happens or doesn't happen, the response is the same. Continue watching.
No opinions about it (unless one happens, then no opinion about that opinion - unless it does, then no opinion about that...)
Nothing is required. We can't control anything so a requirement is frustration material. Even just watching is not a requirement. It's an offering that might or might not be integrated.

much love

vince

Good afternnon!
Great meeting last night

Yes it was. It's a shame that your internet connection kept breaking up.

That's okay.Thought arrived that said it may have been for the best.

Ah, excellent. You not only see that sensation are involved, but you see that it is the labelling of them that shapes behavior.

You know, I get the feeling that I am telling you stuff that you already know...

Yes already know but labrador brain sees a squirrel and chases daydreams,past memories and future solutions so it needs a dog whistle to call it back and focus on finding the duck.S

o here we can be open to new responses.
The old way was to DO something to escape unpleasant emotions. Now by simply recognizing their presence they will change.
No intention. No choice. No decisions. Just watching (with good humor) is enough.