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[PeterMM]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no ‘I’ here looking at an object there. No see-er… Just the seen. The personal I or ego is a mental fabrication. Liberation = seeing through / dropping identification - and the delusive belief / assumption that all is constituted from separate parts.
Have some conceptual understanding of Bahiya sutra, Tsin Tsin Ming, Heart sutra, etc

What are you looking for at LU?
Help to ‘Awaken’ …. First major shift, unhooking from identification with personal ’I’, Kensho, elimination of first Fetter ( and next 2).
Come across different views as to whether this is same as Theravadan First Path / Stream-entry / first cessation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
At this point think I need help…. so …guidance, pointing, intuitive suggestions…..It may be that some things that Im blind to / missing / blocking / avoiding - become noticed and obvious to someone else.

…Expect to focus on the first break through / shift so dealing primarily with identity and identification with thinking….

.. concerning with what is right here right now - can be known empirically. Not with the conceptual - ie pscho-analytically figuring out ‘my' story, or investigating ontological ’truths’ etc etc…

Am overly ‘defensive’…. Habitually seek refuge in head.. Doubt - a big one for me. Scepticism and questioning has served me well at times in life story but also tends to get wielded in a negative and sabotaging way…

Am uncomfortable languaging anything.

Though ungifted at meditation, in the past have slogged away putting plenty of time into trying to sit quietly, often attending to an object of meditation, hoping the ‘practise’ would somehow magic up awakening, - that I would earn ‘progress’. What Ive barely done is to turn this attention 180 degrees around and look for this ‘me’. Had overlooked the quiet background assumption of this 'me' doing the meditation and seeking…or taken notice that the mind stream, the defensiveness, reactivity, opinions and views etc - are all dependently arising from this assumption.

…Little hints / presentiments …. Some recently but mostly when much younger.
There were several occasions when seemed there was a sort of cascade of seeing much that I hear talked about re awakening - Then this would fade, and mysteriously the identity seemed to take over again.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Am 67. Enthralled by Jung’s autobiography when 15, which led to books on Zen etc. Had a series of tastes / glimpses in early twenties, which totally changed trajectory of my life. Since, have met and known an absurd number of well know teachers, done countless retreats in various traditions, but invariably felt like am spinning my wheels ineffectively.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[vegansatori]

Hi Peter!
Sorry for the slow response to your email!

I've got you! :-)

I'm going to respond back to your email via email, and then we'll get started on here. Sound good?

In meantime, here's my usual opening with all the necessary preliminaries and such:

A few things before we get started.

You’ve read this disclaimer, correct? http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Beware that the forum sometimes goes down. I would highly recommend composing your responses in another program and pasting them into the forum. I would have lost many hours of typed messages had I not done this!

We will use a mixture of conversation and direct pointing exercises in order to aid your inquiry. I will not be asking you to believe or accept anything. That said, it’s also not productive to engage in long philosophical discussions. (I learned that the hard way from my own journey to Seeing!) I’ll be asking lots of pointed questions, but the actual work of Looking and accurately reporting what is found (or not found) will be up to you. The pointers work really well, but only if you do them. :-)

Do you find that you're better with written pointers or auditory recorded ones?

To get an idea of exactly where you are right now, can you please answer these questions? One of the biggest hindrances to Seeing no-self is the habit of creating falsely grandiose expectations. We’ll need to address those right away if they are showing up for you. Please answer as honestly and thoroughly as you can.

What is wrong with things as they are now, and in what ways do you expect them to change after “crossing the Gate”?
Do you expect any changes in your personality/relationships/mental states, etc.?
How will being “Awakened” feel?
Is there something missing now that you expect to find?
Do you have any fears, anxiety, or reservations about this process? (Please feel free to be very honest about this if you do.)

If I have written questions in blue text, please try to answer each one as specifically as possible.

Also, for the sake of clarity, please answer questions using the Quote function for each if it’s not too much trouble.
Step one: select the text to quote.
Step two: press the "Quote" button above the text edit field.
Please let me know if you have any problems.

I look forward to getting started on this journey with you!
-Todd

[vegansatori]

Hi Peter!
I changed my mind. After I started responding to your email I decided to just cut out any sensitive specifics from your email and write back here because I think some of it is going to be relevant to moving forward. :-)

Have functioned fine in life so don't want to over play the victim story here, but especially in last few years, become more clear how same patterns repeated over and over. And all seem to have been set in those first few years..

Yes indeed! And even outwardly functioning fine doesn’t mean that there aren’t old assumptions and limiting beliefs and old wounds still waiting to come to the surface to be seen and released.

Tends to show up as defensiveness…

And this was a great list of those limiting beliefs I’d just referenced! ;-)

Am finding much of this glarringly easy pickings re self enquiry at the moment.

Fantastic! That will make our lives much easier. :-)

[/quote]Ha-Ha! Whether on not this is a deliberate bear trap?...[/quote]

Hahahaha! I love seeing your inner mental workings on the page! Super helpful.

…Have always tried not to throw the baby out with the bath water so have a nuanced view of it all.

Yeah, it’s funny because I really got into reading his books in college and found him to be an amazing teacher of the Dharma. I had no idea of his history or scandals back in those days. I agree that there is still a lot of wisdom in what he taught… even if it’s got some pretty crazy caveats now!

Absolutely fine and willing to delve into the darkest places. Feel an urgency about all this - Too old to knowingly hold back / hold on, any more…..Will try to be as open as poss in these exchanges..

Beautiful! Thank you for this!

But curiously, Yes, Think there is some sort of disconnect between head and body. Unclear about this. Rushing around In head, fixing, tuned in on some distant wave length, not connecting?…Mostly the body seems to carry on doing its thing just fine.. And yet love being in the body...

Excellent insights here regarding your love for movement, but also your disconnection from the body in daily life. We’ll work with this.

As far as being told to ignore your visual sense… I think that’s the exact opposite of what I would suggest you do! lol

Using it skillfully is much better than ignoring it. I am going to guess that a large part of your feeling of being a self is wrapped up in your visual field, and those subtle internal images of the body. Does that feel right to you?

Hmm. Not sure. A few things…

"feeling of being of self. ….. wrapped up in visual field"… Need to consider this. Self enquiry and the Kevin Schanilec fetters model - all quite new for me, though came across Greg Good / Sri Atmanda Krishna Menon / Advaita and Buddhist emptiiness teachings / Nagarjunna etc ..a long time ago.

So where exactly do you most feel like a “self” right now?

Heres a wild theory of mine! My guess is that the reason Im able to draw a bit better than most people is partly because I can look at a scene and attend to what is actually seen, without being so distracted by the mentally fabricated over lays. If asked to draw a house most kids will end up with a symbolic version of a house, - square 4 walls, 4 windows, chimney, front door and blue sky. I shifted from symbolic drawing when much younger than usual, - to trying to represent just what was actually seen in front of me…

Yes! This will really help when you get to the Fetter 6 practice! It is easier to see things like this for people who have been artists for a long time. You have a leg up for sure! :-)

When i watch the streaming movie of the minds eyes in meditation, theres no story in it, and no sense of me doing it, of choosing, controlling. Same as when one ‘watches’ any thought or sensation in access concentration, so not 'touching it'.. letting it be….

This is great and super helpful. But how about in daily life?

There was a period for me on one of the Kasina retreats where things became very abstract (- a stage Daniel Ingrams / Mahasi call ‘High Equanimity’ ).It was no longer clearly a case of ‘me’ looking at a visual ‘object’ of meditation…The objects were sort of morphing into being me looking back at ‘me’, so which was the ‘me’?… Approaching a sort of mental event horizon…..

----------------

Again, this sounds like another F6/7 glimpse. Very nice! These peak experiences and insights are great, but for this practice we’re going to put them on the shelf for now. We know they were there, but we’re not going to compare with them or try to recreate or experience them again. This is just coming back to what is here right now, over and over, and exploring what is here with direct experience. Cool?

Also, how in touch with your body are you? I’m guessing there’s a fair amount of disconnect there?

See above..Yes.

Please let me know if I’m wrong on any of this!

Think youve got me already - way better than the therapists Ive seen, ever did….

Hahahaha, lovely! Good to hear! I sense a lot of similarity between us, so that helps!

Okay… I really would like to work with you on this. Since you don’t mind waiting, I would be willing to take you on now, as long as you’re OK with writing back only once a week or so, unless I have more time?

Completely perfect. Am delighted. Thank you so much.

Happy to do it! I’m sorry again that it took so long to respond to this!

As I think I said earlier, feel I need to really dig into spending loads more time actaully doing the practise of self enquiry. Have only just started. Finally have some space from work as few jobs on. So communicating once ever week or two - or when ever suits you - completely ideal for me..

Perfect perfect perfect!

Am blown away by the generosity of you LU ‘guides’.

It’s our pleasure!

I look forward to talk with you soon!
Have a great day!
-Todd

[PeterMM]

Massive thank you. Cant say this enough.

Do you find that you're better with written pointers or auditory recorded ones?

Fine with written. No opinion really.

What is wrong with things as they are now, and in what ways do you expect them to change after “crossing the Gate”?

“..What is wrong with things as they are now..?”..
Slip so easily into being caught up in the me and my story, which is mostly a pain in the arse… At its heart seems to involve efforts to fix the universe. Would be lovely if all this effort and worry were let go of……
“..what ways do you expect to change..?”… Dropping of much fear. And loads of other negative behaviour that comes from a supposedly threatened ‘me’. Clearly seeing thoughts as thoughts and so not being so easily caught up in the story they spin. So more easily resting in the present. ….

Knowing - really knowing right now - that quite impossible for any dust to alight on the mirror. - In fact - not even mirror. All is utterly perfect and could not be any other way. And knowing that love is the very stuff of everything…
..Though much of this is maybe for later. …

Do you expect any changes in your personality/relationships/mental states, etc.?

“Personality and relationships “ No.. Perhaps subtly in the longer term.… But mental states - Yes. Expect them all to come up just as strongly - but with less identification so would expect them to dissipate more quickly…

How will being “Awakened” feel?

Never like I can imagine it !
For first awakening? : However this moment is. Always changing. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. But liberated from that huge waste of energy spent trying to control everything, so more energetic. A veil lifted - so everything in clearer focus, more present, less managed - including emotions, so experienced more fully. More allowing of things to be just the way they are.
Regarding grandiose expectations…May have some subconscious expectations based on my ‘tastes’ that were mostly long ago and remembered as dramatic and often quite wonderful.
A brief taste very recently — Shocked out of semi-sleep. ‘I’ had slipped into no longer being ‘me’. Absolute terror - Jumped right back out of that and took a while to calm down. Profound unfiltered fear. So re ‘how will awakening feel? …Cant say!

Is there something missing now that you expect to find?

The place I never left. ‘Home’.. Just somehow got lost in a fictitious drama.. Seemingly ‘became’ the ‘player on the stage’. “A tale told by an idiot … signifying nothing”
So this seen through….
No longer hanker after big deal experiences. As far as I can know right now from current perspective, am fine with the idea of awakening being a sort of loss.. Not an acquiring.

Do you have any fears, anxiety, or reservations about this process? (Please feel free to be very honest about this if you do.)

Don't really like putting stuff up in public - even though get that there’s a level of anonymity. In some ways rather private. No probs though….
Always a bit cagey about trusting… so may have reservations which arent expressed. Am sovereign and responsible for me… But if it feels right - can and will let go… off the edge…
Really struggle with writing. Not a skill i have. Always feel am missing the mark. Can get bad attacks of ‘papancha’ ( proliferation) …so need editing, but this can get excessive…All becomes rather heady.…

So where exactly do you most feel like a “self” right now?

Around my head…behind my eyes. When I look at what is knowing that, fall into a sort of rucursive spin of not finding ‘me’…with no settleing place… But the me not really seen through.
Day to day, its the secondary thoughts that run and run - where I get entirely lost into the assumption of a ‘me’.. These are not so specifically located but are here’ as opposed to the rest of the world which is ‘there’.
‘I’ am reconstruced faster and more continuously than I seem to be able to see through.. ..so it seems as if there is a me …somewhere…in the center of the universe.. in abstract but visual space.

But how about in daily life?

No sadly !…In daily life am identified - most of the time.. Specially with those run away secondary thoughts mentioned above….Now Ive started this with LU, time to up my vidgelence, make more of an effort not to abandon so much to those run away thought streams.

[vegansatori]

Hey Peter,

Great seeing you in the meeting Sunday!

“..What is wrong with things as they are now..?”.. 

Slip so easily into being caught up in the me and my story, which is mostly a pain in the arse… At its heart seems to involve efforts to fix the universe. Would be lovely if all this effort and worry were let go of…… 

Did you get anything out of our talk about this stuff at the last meeting? About all of the wanting to fix the universe? Again, when things like that come up, notice how it is your way of alleviating from a discomfort that is already inside of you. 
And then you can look at what it is in your experience right now that seems to be needing something to change in order for you to be comfortable.

When you get those sensations that say that you are caught up in your story, or that you need to fix something about the world, immediately turn your attention around and notice what part of your experience is it that feels like it’s identified with that story, or that urge to change things.

In other words, take just one of those things to start with. Say you get caught up in a story about yourself. What kind of issue is it that most often becomes a sticky one for you? Like are you getting caught up in a narrative about your future or past? Are those the sort of concerns that are the stickiest? Or is it something financial, or having to do with enlightenment, or something else? 

Whatever it is that is attractive to you and causes that feeling of identification, notice in the moment when you are actually feeling identified, what the feeling of identification even is! Can you define it to me as closely as you can? Don’t analyze with your thoughts. Go into the feelings in the body, and your awareness of thoughts, to see if there is any way to feel identification with thoughts that is not just a thought commenting on another thought, or maybe a thought connected to some sort of physical sensations in the body.

“..what ways do you expect to change..?”… Dropping of much fear. And loads of other negative behaviour that comes from a supposedly threatened ‘me’. Clearly seeing thoughts as thoughts and so not being so easily caught up in the story they spin. So more easily resting in the present. …. 

As for the seeing thoughts as thoughts and not being caught up in them, it really is as simple as constantly throughout the day, noticing and labeling each one: “thought” or, “thinking”. And then just let that thought go without giving the content of it your attention.  You can’t just disidentify from thought by adding more thought to it. The only way to do it is by noticing it from the more detached perspective over and over and over again.
 
If you find that you are getting caught up in thoughts about having caught thoughts, just label that as “thought” and let it move on.

Knowing - really knowing right now - that quite impossible for any dust to alight on the mirror. - In fact - not even mirror. All is utterly perfect and could not be any other way. And knowing that love is the very stuff of everything…
..Though much of this is maybe for later. …

Yeah, I feel like the "all-encompassing love and perfection" part of the awakening process is a bit later for most people. Some people can experience that in a shift from the first, but don’t count on that as a given. Ultimately this first awakening step is just the dropping of a belief, and gaining the confidence that there is no stable unchanging self to be found in your experience. Any emotional changes that arise from that may or may not happen.

If they do come, they might come later if at all, or they might come, but then be very short-lived. So hold all of that extremely lightly and just come back to what is here right now, and not what we expect might happen in the future.
Can you be OK, really, if you never experience those things?

Do you expect any changes in your personality/relationships/mental states, etc.?

“Personality and relationships “ No.. Perhaps subtly in the longer term.… But mental states - Yes. Expect them all to come up just as strongly - but with less identification so would expect them to dissipate more quickly

Again, I will say this is a little bit later of a development for the most part. Working with 4/5 is where we really deal with a lot of the negative emotional states. It’s amazing how much identification can still exist even after having seen through the self. The inquiry into desire and aversion is all about that more subtle identification with wanting other people to act differently than they do, and for situations to be different than they are.

How will being “Awakened” feel? Never like I can imagine it !

Good answer!!!

For first awakening? : However this moment is. Always changing. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. But liberated from that huge waste of energy spent trying to control everything, so more energetic. A veil lifted - so everything in clearer focus, more present, less managed - including emotions, so experienced more fully. More allowing of things to be just the way they are. 
Regarding grandiose expectations…May have some subconscious expectations based on my ‘tastes’ that were mostly long ago and remembered as dramatic and often quite wonderful. 

So with all of these possible anticipations of what it might feel like, look right now:
Who/what is it that is going to experience these states in the future?
Is there a feeling that there is an entity now who is going to continue progressing a month, or a year, or 10 years into the future, that will experience these different states with different emotions and fewer thoughts?
Where is that assumption pointing?
What exists in your experience right now that seems like it’s going to continue to experience these future states?

Don’t just jump to thought to answer those. Really look in your experience to find something that seems to be stable, and capable of experiencing change.

A brief taste very recently — Shocked out of semi-sleep. ‘I’ had slipped into no longer being ‘me’. Absolute terror - Jumped right back out of that and took a while to calm down. Profound unfiltered fear. So re ‘how will awakening feel? …Cant say!

Fascinating! So In the dream where you were no longer you, were you someone else? Were you nothing at all? And if you were nothing, could you get a sense of what it was that was aware of that no-longer-being you? If there was really no you there, how were you aware of it?

Is there something missing now that you expect to find?

The place I never left. ‘Home’..

I know what you’re saying, but where is that Home?
Is there any place other than right here right now?
If not, how can you ever be apart from that Home at any time?
Are you not Home right now?
What is keeping you from recognizing that right this instant?

Just somehow got lost in a fictitious drama.. Seemingly ‘became’ the ‘player on the stage’. “A tale told by an idiot … signifying nothing”
So this seen through….
No longer hanker after big deal experiences. As far as I can know right now from current perspective, am fine with the idea of awakening being a sort of loss.. Not an acquiring. 

Okay, so Who/What is playing that role?
Does it feel like there is someone who is playing the role?
Or does it feel like there is just talking and thinking and moving?

Do you have any fears, anxiety, or reservations about this process? (Please feel free to be very honest about this if you do.)

Don't really like putting stuff up in public - even though get that there’s a level of anonymity. In some ways rather private. No probs though….

I understand this. If you ever have anything that you want to tell me but don’t want on the public forum, you can feel free to email me privately.

Always a bit cagey about trusting… so may have reservations which arent expressed. 

Please feel free to express any reservations! I really am not going to ask you to trust anything or believe anything. All I’m doing is pointing to your direct experience for you to see for yourself what is true in your experience. Rather than telling or trying to convince you of anything, I'm just going to ask questions for you to investigate, in hope that they'll point your eyes back to where they need to be to see what needs to be seen. I have no claims on any metaphysical truth or any such things. Lol All I know is what I have seen in my direct Experience. And I assume it will be similar to what you experience in yours!  

But the most important thing about this whole process is to trust your experience and not what somebody tells you from outside. Don’t get caught up in those comparisons of what your experience might be compared to somebody else’s (like I used to). Just trust your own being. 

Am sovereign and responsible for me… But if it feels right - can and will let go… off the edge…
Really struggle with writing. Not a skill i have. Always feel am missing the mark. Can get bad attacks of ‘papancha’ ( proliferation) …so need editing, but this can get excessive…All becomes rather heady.…

It’s perfectly OK. I would say to just write whatever seems right in the moment, and don’t worry about re-editing. Because if you start editing it, this is just the mind talking and no longer speaking from your actual experience.
Like I said to Phil in the meeting yesterday, the answers that you give are not what is important for this. They’re helpful for me to gauge where I might need to point you to next. But beyond that, the insight comes from the actual looking on your part. So don’t worry about creating elaborate beautiful prose. The more you translate your experience into thoughts, the more of a distance you get from your actual experience. So keep your answers raw and direct and limited to what is happening right now when you answer.

So where exactly do you most feel like a “self” right now?

 Around my head…behind my eyes. When I look at what is knowing that, fall into a sort of rucursive spin of not finding ‘me’…with no settleing place… But the me not really seen through. 

OK great! Can you describe more about what that recursive spin feels like?
Having no settling place is actually a good thing. This can be the ground dropping out that we talked about in the meeting. When you find that there is nothing stable there, can you just rest in that space of not knowing - that absolute openness?

Day to day, its the secondary thoughts that run and run - where I get entirely lost into the assumption of a ‘me’.. These are not so specifically located but are here’ as opposed to the rest of the world which is ‘there’. 

OK, so some of that “here versus there” is still sixth fetter stuff. Don’t expect that to fall right away. Again like we talked about in the meeting, thoughts will also continue. It’s just the identification with them that’s the problem. So again, what does it feel like to have that complete locked-in assumption of “me”? Don’t just jump to the label of it being a "me”. Get very fine tuned into your internal experience as to what it is that you are labeling “me”.

‘I’ am reconstruced faster and more continuously than I seem to be able to see through.. ..so it seems as if there is a me …somewhere…in the center of the universe.. in abstract but visual space.

OK, really well seen with the visual space. But when you say this, are you talking about the visual appearance of your body, or is it that internal mental image that we all have that refers to something that seems to be our body? Is it that mental thought overlay that is hovering somewhere in your head that you are referring to here? If so, can you just become aware of that every time it shows up? Especially any time that it shows up overlaying, or underlaying your current experience of talking to other people, or having negative thoughts, or really anything else?

But how about in daily life? No sadly !…In daily life am identified - most of the time.. Specially with those run away secondary thoughts mentioned above….Now Ive started this with LU, time to up my vidgelence, make more of an effort not to abandon so much to those run away thought streams.

Excellent! Yes! So again your practices here are: noticing the thoughts, and labeling them as just being thoughts. And then notice if you have that internal body image somewhere in the middle of the head, or wherever else it shows up for you. And also notice if that mental image overlay is reinforcing the sense of being a self. And anytime during the day that you have these thoughts or feelings of being a “me”, check right into your internal physical space and your mental space and see what is appearing right now that seems to be “you”. 

We’ll start there, and then let me know how you’re making out with these. I can add some other inquiry practices for you when needed.
Have a great night!
Todd

[PeterMM]

OK. Such a generous and helpfull reply. Huge amount in it so will take a little while to digest.

Meanwhile .. Found the conversation between you and Phil ( also Vince and Jeff ) at that last meeting, very very helpful indeed. The penny is beginning to drop as to why everyone bangs on and on so much about really taking notice of those physical (and often very subtle ) sensations. …. -Slipping into thought being a way to avoid feeling physical sensations … But they are what is ‘real’ , so can see the futility/absurdity of attempting to fix the universe by disappearing into the make believe world of thinking’.

Will be writing more soon…

[PeterMM]

What kind of issue is it that most often becomes a sticky one for you?

When I feel attacked, challenged, criticised, or fail …( in circumstances that matter to me )

Like are you getting caught up in a narrative about your future or past? Are those the sort of concerns that are the stickiest? Or is it something financial, or having to do with enlightenment, or something else? 

Right now find trying to answer all these questions is .. a little overwhelming…Never comfortable writing.. . Feel trapped as no way I can do a good job of replying to so many questions. .. Feel should spend quite some time sitting quietly with each …letting them sink in deeply…..But am not going to be able to come near doing them justice … ... Cant.. Don't have enough time… Quite aware that a head based answer misses, but thats what I seem mostly to be coming up with in the time I have … So will FAIL. Hate FAILING… PANIC……

So thank you for gifting me the perfect triggering sticky !… He-he !…

Along the lines of “just because Im paranoid doesn't mean they’re not after me”….. Do think I might do better focusing more thoroughly on fewer pointers.. Am slow!…Say more about this at the bottom..
But again must stress how incredibly appreciative I am for your very touching and caring response. You must have spent an age on this.

Back to your questions….
Politics, unfairness, injustice etc - triggers ….but all these can be seen as outwardly projected expressions of issues that really belong in the personal …So anywhere I might be judged, including my work. If my opinions are challenged…Oooh..…Being told Im ‘wrong’. Ooo-Oooh. Obsessional trying to get it right to avoid the risk of all that….
Re the past : Shame, embarrassment, conflicts, regrets. Re the future : addicted to being busy . Always over committed… Planning… Ridiculous unnecessary projects.….

If one sees awakening as a total relaxing into ‘allowing’ things to be just the way they are, then can see how protective ego is busy doing a terrific job - but in a precisely contrary direction … It thinks by controlling, fixing, - every thing will become perfect - and there by, total relaxation will be enabled…
Knew Pamela Wilson well a long time ago, and she would lay a lot of stress on thanking and honouring those defensive mechanisms which act like loyal and devoted guard dogs… and then telling them its fine to stop now, to rest…

On one level one of the blessings of getting older is that it becomes obvious that none of all this really matters that much, …But still the conditioning runs.

Whatever it is that is attractive to you and causes that feeling of identification, notice in the moment when you are actually feeling identified, what the feeling of identification even is! Can you define it to me as closely as you can?

Hmm. In intense feelings of identification, will hold my breath. The holding breath thing is perfect example of this… Not immediately obvious what benefit this brings … but… Suspect it arrests all movement, stops / blocks feeling,. … Years ago sometimes had to do some very accurate illustration work and the only way to keep a steady enough was to hold breath…Perfect control…Became a habit…
Will cut down my field of view and attention to a narrow bandwidth. Will become unaware outside of that range. A conviction of power, control……. Most of these ore mental aspects so in head. For physical aspects - probably a slight adrenaline rush, a surge in abdomen…A feeling of pressure in my head and chest… as if high blood pressure… Tension in chest and abdomen. Translated as anxiety, worry, under pressure… Prickly neck…But the attention is in the thoughts, with no awareness of them being mind objects…. so lost in the story..
Actually .. think in many moments of identification, there is virtually no awareness of anything but the thoughts. Just subliminal intelligence seems to stop me falling down! because there can be zero attention on the outside world. …100% on or rather in the fantasy..

Can you be OK, really, if you never experience those things?

Have thought about this. 
Awakening, as I understand it, is a sort of DEATH ..of absolutely EVERYTHING we know and think we are..(including any expectations / hopes about what awakening is. )- So be odd not to be concerned., including at a visceral. level. Risking all for this…but for what? Yet am inexorably drawn ….
Been very touched by Suzanne Chang’s talks recently. Stresses that there is NO ONE that gets ANYTHING… and at the deepest levels - this entire world - is GONE.. She talks about how devastating the deep realising of this can be. 
Try to be honest - Am I really up for this ?… To some extent can discount obvious ‘doubt’ thoughts as just thoughts - but don't want to be self delusional and avoid facing deeper levels of resistance ..

Who/what is it that is going to experience these states in the future?

On the level we are talking it makes no sense to talk of the future. Can see that “who/what it is that is going to experience these states in the future” has to be conjured up in the minds imagination … but always and only ever know in the present right now. So there is no future.
If we play along with the game that there is a self in the future, that there is time, … then this idea of me in the future has to be conjured up in the imagination, - which clearly can only known in this very moment, so has no real reality.
I worry about a future me - before looking to see this depends on the inference of there being a me in the first place.
Don't quite believe this in my guts though ! .. Weird… So much about the illusion is so glaringly and logically obvious and undeniable..so isn't it strange that it isn't truly ‘seen’.

Is there a feeling that there is an entity now who is going to continue progressing a month, or a year, or 10 years into the future, that will experience these different states with different emotions and fewer thoughts?

Hmm ..Certainly behave as if there is linear time and a future me. Would i care if I also saved with the Silicon Valley Bank? Would I be genuinely equanimous about loosing half my life savings ?… ( Turns out they got all their cash back ! )

Where is that assumption pointing?
What exists in your experience right now that seems like it’s going to continue to experience these future states?

Straw man argument…( Future states are empty mental fabrications so not a meaningful query)
But , just going with this for a moment… if I look to see “what exist in my experience right now”, there seems to be something that has always been there, doesn't come and go, isn't subject to time…

This brings up something that I tried to ask about in a meeting… but didn't express it satisfactorily so had no reply…
Many teachers, such as Angelo and Adyashanti, talk about resting in presents awareness, in that that never comes or goes, that which you always are, that that cant be denied, this knowing living experience right now, the ‘I am’ sense, ‘The Cloud of Unknowing’..…
Get that this is not meant as an ultimate truth ( Nargarjuna, Madhyamika, etc) . But if Ive got this right, notice that LU people don't have any truck with this… See this as cover for notions of self to slip back in?…

So In the dream where you were no longer you, were you someone else?

No. Not someone else.

Were you nothing at all?

Was a completely impersonal no one, entirely not ‘me’. But it ‘was’, so somehow maybe not quite right to say nothing at all because it was knowing… or something..

And if you were nothing, could you get a sense of what it was that was aware of that no-longer-being you? If there was really no you there, how were you aware of it?

Yes - ‘I’ was aware, but it wasn't ‘me’ that was aware. Very spooky - and totally different from other tastes Ive had, which had always been positive.
Regarding the ’sense of what it was that was aware of no-longer being you?’…Thats curious , because on trying to remember the experience, Id say for a time before I ‘thought’ about it, there WAS nothing… Then I became self aware of the way things were, …then it was described, …then there was panic, … then like a flash ‘i’ jumped back into being ‘me’. Between the seeing and the describing was way too short for any ’surrender’ or letting go …
Might bear the fear better with more practise, should this ever happens again.

…but where is that Home?

Hmmm. Not a where. Utterly undefinable. That which is right here-now…Existing flowing this-ness knowing-ness-ing. 
Somehow seen clearly and fully in those moment I remember, and - so not seen unfiltered at this moment……Though never to be quite forgotten.. Pandoras box - opened !…..
Home is that place I tried to describe in the meeting, so not veiled by identification with the Peter story, - no birth, death, time….everything, no-thing., utterly this-ness-ing ..

Is there any place other than right here right now?

Ok. No…. But can be blind to that…though that blindness is not actually a real “place..”, - just an illusion…. But on an ultimate level, even that illusion is actually the here now showing up as illusion. ( Lila )

If not, how can you ever be apart from that Home at any time?

I cant - Am always ‘home’. Anything else not possible.. But in my experience this is somehow not fully seen …. So frustrating as it has been seen - Cant magic my way out of this dream…Wake up…And know a conceptual understanding of this is worthless. The words ‘Waking up, awakening’ are the perfect metaphors.

Are you not Home right now?

Yes, though again speaking conceptually - Couldn't ever be anywhere else but home. But its as if am playing a game of pretend - The identified me thats writing to you believes Im a player on the stage… all the while in some bizarre way its also simultaneously known that this is just a game , the ‘player’ and the ’stage’ are just flickering lights.
And that that knows this - Im calling home.

What is keeping you from recognizing that right this instant?

Nothing.
…Until ‘I’ do something …which at an subconscious level i am almost all the time….
Off on that circular spin again. ‘Me’ is blocking recognition…Any effort the me makes is obscuring that which simply is - So theres nothing ‘I’ can do to remove ‘I’, because that itself will be the ‘I’ which is doing the doing, ad infinitum……
Untrickable, Cant game this one.

Okay, so Who/What is playing that role?
Does it feel like there is someone who is playing the role?

Its a flippin’ mystery! If I look It seems like there a non stop circular reinvention of a me, who is thought to be participating in the story and who then is thought to be observing the story….
Actually there is a knowing of the story, but no watcher who does the knowing can be found..

Does it feel like there is someone who is playing the role?

That someone is an added extra , on top of the knowing…assumed to be the knower ..Where as in actual fact no knower can be found. Just the one seamless whole of knowing and the known.

Or does it feel like there is just talking and thinking and moving?

Actually yes, yes, yes, This is nearly always seen ( though not always felt..NB !) to be the case. I get up, walk across the room, sit down. There was no choosing to do any of this. No doing it. It just happens. After the event I can claim authorship - but thats not actually what is observed. Am clear on this.
See the contradictions in what I previously wrote.
The me is a narrative on top of what is happening… which I buy into … become identified with …
Identified… Funny thing….Who is identifying?

Can you describe more about what that recursive spin feels like?

There may be a deterioration in each iteration… like a clone of a clone of a clone… So after a few the mind tends to have lost its way in treacle…lost..

When you find that there is nothing stable there, can you just rest in that space of not knowing - that absolute openness?

Don't know what that means…Though sometimes I do…Not sure. Problem is as soon as I start to ‘know’ it- its not a space of unknown.. Can over self critical here , when actually am doing just fine……. Mentioned in an early post about sabotaging self with over high standards - Setting bar so high that fail to notice whats just fine right in front.. ..Sort of doubt at play.
All the teachers I currently find most helpful ( Angelo, Adyashanti etc ) all talk about resting in this place… So its been something Ive puzzled about.
One of the reasons I loved those retreat with Daniel was that i was completely clear what I was doing…
If not sure , can float around in a sort of dreamy state - thinking this might be ‘cloud of unknowing’ when in fact its dullness…

So again, what does it feel like to have that complete locked-in assumption of “me”?
But when you say this, are you talking about the visual appearance of your body, or is it that internal mental image that we all have that refers to something that seems to be our body? Is it that mental thought overlay that is hovering somewhere in your head that you are referring to here?

If i didn't look very carefully Id call it an abstract - …Like Phil trying to avoid seeing that a space he’d noticed was either a thought or a sensation but something unique to him..…Some thoughts are really sneaky and brilliantly disguised. For me , what Im ‘thinking’ is sort of cunningly pretending to be behind thoughts, - the container of thoughts … and its a vastness.. But actually in a sort of dreamy visualisation of a vast space which I imagine Im in…ie just another thought. Doesn't bear close inspection. The mind will then do its recursive thing to try to re-establish a landing place… seemingly ad infinitum… Or may be it will eventually run out of steam and come to a blank ( as you described above -’space of not knowing’)… Need to ‘meditate’ on this…

If so, can you just become aware of that every time it shows up? Especially any time that it shows up overlaying, or underlaying your current experience of talking to other people, or having negative thoughts, or really anything else?

Yep.. This is excellent home work…

Interesting week ,… Spent most of available time working on this. Actually found it a bit of a slog. Embarrassed to say its taken all of available time over these 4 or 5 days ……There’s been ‘Ah-Ha !’ moments and its been salutary to follow some things through to their logical ( or illogical ) conclusions.. Attempted to be authentic, rather than smart arse guru, but still found the process of writing this out - very HEAD oriented ….
Missed having the time to sit quietly and dive a bit deeper which I think I need to get to more meaningful insights. 
Am keen to investigating those body sensations, and how they’re linked to thoughts. Also think I need to enquire and see that no self can be found - over and over and over and over … for the habitual assumption patterns to loosen their grip… 

That last paragraph you wrote was most helpful and dead clear..


“noticing the thoughts, and labeling them as just being thoughts. And then notice if you have that internal body image somewhere in the middle of the head, or wherever else it shows up for you. And also notice if that mental image overlay is reinforcing the sense of being a self. And anytime during the day that you have these thoughts or feelings of being a “me”, check right into your internal physical space and your mental space and see what is appearing right now that seems to be “you”. “

Am now slightly astonished that LU usually works with a daily back and forth ..Enough in this to keep me busy for months …
OK.. Enough for now…
XXX

[vegansatori]

Hi Peter!
Sorry, it's been super busy here!

Yeah, not everyone writes as long and detailed of a message each time as I tend to. Sorry about that! ;-) This is why I have to limit the number of people I work with. Have you been working with those same pointers since you wrote?

On that note, absolutely no pressure either way, but I've been getting so many people reaching out for guiding lately that I'm considering starting a small guiding Zoom group. If so, would you be interested? And if so, would you mind having it publicly available on YouTube? I'm trying to get a feel of the room on this, so to speak.

Likewise, would you find it more beneficial to do this guiding by Zoom rather on the forum? I'm reading your answers and wondering if it would be better to dig into them in person. Especially because I can keep bringing you back to the moment and the body, and out of the head when we're actually investigating.

Before I answer all of this, let me know how that sits with you. :-)

Thanks very much, and I'll talk with you/respond soon!
Have a great night!
-Todd

[PeterMM]

Todd
Think I have a reasonable conceptual overview of all this. In previous email feel Ive been - to some extent - laying out my stall. May be wrong , but think the reason I was uncomfortable with the process of writing that last email , was that I was functioning mostly from the level of mind, and knew that was not going to effect any ‘insights’.

Just re-read earlier emails.. Such helpful replies.

With regards to ‘fixing’ the universe…Been considering this. On a personal intimate level have spent a life trying to ’fix’ me - ultimately to make me more lovable…. Can see theres another way to be with the ‘me’ personality story. Tricky this. Part 1) Accepting my weirdness and less than ideal-ness which include inadequacies, shame , embarrassment , insecurity etc , and holding it with a bit of compassion - without trying to change it or fix , and seeing it as a valiant attempt that this ‘conditioning’ and habit forming process came up with - to cope…2) Feeling into the physical sensations that run along - or just in front of the mind behaviours, and bearing them , feeling them. Actually they’re not so bad - but usually rush away from them, in to the mind, to avoid the unpleasantness of them…3) Seeing that non of this is a ‘me’ but just a sequence of conditioned behaviours that arise from nowhere with no doer

Have been paying attention to way the mind stuff and the physical sensation stuff - run together. Get that there is actually no real connection between them. The mind stuff sort of wraps its self around and over and through the physical sensation - as if its an explanation and a voice for them - But in reality it isn't. The thoughts just comes up almost randomly. Identifying with a thought gives it legs - which then will run - and loose all memory of its origins.

xxx