The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the sense of a me who is making decisions and is "stuck" in the body is an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for someone who can point out the beliefs that create the sense of a me. I had two experiences where the me was seen as non-existent but after a short time it came back. So I would like to have someone guide me through the last portion of this process

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think it would be beneficial to have someone point out the beliefs where I get stuck in the me again. My whole spiritual journey was done by myself by reading books and watching videos which was of course helpful and I got a lot from that but after six years since my first awakening experience I hope that a guided conversation can help me to see through the remaining parts of the me faster.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I guess I was always a seeker, I just didn't know what exactly I was seeking for. Six years ago I didn't know where else to look anymore because nothing gave me what I was looking for. I was deeply unsatisfied with life and started to look into Buddhism. I didn't really get the message at that point but I found some videos about Hinduism and I heard the term "oneness" for the first time. In that moment there was an instant recognition that this is what I was searching for. After a few weeks I had my first awakening which was very intense with a lot of crying and laughing. I could see that I was never seperate from anything and everything was always deeply okay. There was still a sense of a subtle me I think. After that I got a little stuck in the new age movement because it seemed at the time that they have the answers that I need. The seeking didn't fully went away but it was so profoundly less than before. After a few years I became disillusioned with these ideas and came across an older video of Lisa Cairns. I was deeply disappointed when I heard the message but something inside resonated so deeply with the message that I was immediately hooked. Since then there's a lot of unlearning and dropping of the beliefs that I took on during my new age phase. I got a little bit into neo-advaita because I enjoy to listen to the message. I'm a regular meditator since six years and enjoy natural meditation as well as the content Angelo Dilullo puts out about self inquiry.
I joined his retreat last week and during one of the meditations I could see very clearly through the me. I realised that what feels like a me is just a bundle of thoughts but there's nothing really there. Thoughts happen but they're not about anyone. Sensations in the body happen but they don't mean anything. I could see that all that is just passing through an empty space (the word empty space doesn't really feels right but it's the best term I can come up with) and there was just a profound enjoyment of existence. Since then the fear of not existing has calmed down a lot and I would like to just take the plundge into the unknown.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Conny,

Nice to meet you, I'm Atmajnani. Welcome to LU!

From your replies it seems to me that you already experienced the dissolution of the first illusion that there was a Self. You said " I could see that all that (thoughts) is just passing through an empty space (the word empty space doesn't really feels right but it's the best term I can come up with) and there was just a profound enjoyment of existence. Since then the fear of not existing has calmed down a lot". After this initial shift, called the gate, basic awakening, kenshó, etc., there is a 'honeymoon' period of variable length where you feel enjoyment, lightness, contentment and little or no reactivity. Then a new 'stage' opens with increased reactivity where your emotional pain comes into your awareness for release. When that time comes, you can inquire into it using Angelo Dillulo's resources or Kevin Schanilec's method (Angelo interviewed him).

If you still have doubt relating to your first awakening experience or beliefs about control, choice and free-will, I would be glad to guide you through it.

Let me know how you feel about it.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

Hello Atmajnani,

thank you for your answer!

I think I had the honeymoon period the first time when I experienced oneness six years ago.
I was suffering with depression and anxiety before that and it was just gone in a blink of an eye. There was only the longing to recreate that experience but other than that I was totally at peace with everything that happened. There was still the sense of a me but I guess more subtle than before. I can't quite remember what my experience was before that. It seems like another lifetime now to be honest.
It stayed that way for ~3 years and then all my reactivity and repressed emotions came back. Since then I've worked through a lot of that and I'm feeling quite stable now but nowhere near where I was after the first shift.
I have absolutely no idea where I am in this process right now :)
At first it felt like that my fear of not existing seemed to have calmed down after the seeing through the me last week but now there's more coming up to be looked at.

Thank you! I was just starting to watch the Interview with Kevin today. I will definitely try his methods.

Yes I would love to have you as my guide.
Once the guided meditation finished so did the seeing through the me. It seems hard to access it right now but I will try some of Angelo's material today. So I guess there's still doubt or some beliefs that are blocking the clear seeing.

Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

As you might know complete honesty and commitment is an essential part of the guiding process.

So I ask you to write regularly, please don't leave out several days without replying. Try to write every day, or every other day. If for some reason that's not possible, then please let me know in advance.

Please also learn how to use the quote function in this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

From your description it seems that you had a very deep awakening 6 years ago. You probably dissolved several beliefs to experience oneness (fetters 1 to 7) and a long 'honeymoon' period of 3 years, just like Eckhart Tolle who was also suffering with severe depression when his shift happened. Sometimes, surrender is enough to cause the shift when the suffering is intense. And there still was a subtle sense of Self which is fetter 8 in the Buddhist fetters model.

The longing (want/desire) you were not able to let go/release was probably responsible for not stabilizing your direct experience of oneness. Fear is the other side of the belief that you have desire & aversion (fetters 4/5). In my perspective, you have to invest your attention in seeing through the belief of desire & aversion (reactivity) and only then you will be ready to see through the subtle layers of Self and oneness and stabilize them.

But in this forum we only guide people through the illusion of a separate Self (the gate) and I request that you answer the following 6 questions with maximum detail to check if some residual beliefs are still in place. Use your direct experience (smell, taste, sound, sensations, color and thoughts arising) to answer, not any conceptual or philosophical theory :-)
After The Gate you can receive additional guiding and resources for reactivity.

1) Is there a separate 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of a 'separate self' is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with a detailed description.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe how decision, intention, free will, choice and control works.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

As you might know complete honesty and commitment is an essential part of the guiding process.

Yes, I'm giving my best to describe only from my current experience as honestly as I can.

So I ask you to write regularly, please don't leave out several days without replying. Try to write every day, or every other day. If for some reason that's not possible, then please let me know in advance.

Okay, I will do that.

From your description it seems that you had a very deep awakening 6 years ago. You probably dissolved several beliefs to experience oneness (fetters 1 to 7) and a long 'honeymoon' period of 3 years, just like Eckhart Tolle who was also suffering with severe depression when his shift happened. Sometimes, surrender is enough to cause the shift when the suffering is intense. And there still was a subtle sense of Self which is fetter 8 in the Buddhist fetters model.

Yes, there was a lot of suffering. I felt cornered by life and there was no way out other than to surrender.

The longing (want/desire) you were not able to let go/release was probably responsible for not stabilizing your direct experience of oneness. Fear is the other side of the belief that you have desire & aversion (fetters 4/5). In my perspective, you have to invest your attention in seeing through the belief of desire & aversion (reactivity) and only then you will be ready to see through the subtle layers of Self and oneness and stabilize them.

I will research the fetters. This is very new to me and I don't think I understand it fully yet. But it makes a lot of sense since this is the theme that comes up time and time again. I didn't see the common theme until now and was jumping from method to method because I didn't know what to do next. But it is very clear now that is what trips me up time and time again.

After The Gate you can receive additional guiding and resources for reactivity.

This is great. Thank you so much!

1) Is there a separate 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is a subtle sense of a me, located behind the eyes. When I close my eyes and look at it it feels spacious, still located behind the eyes but without boundaries. The body is a sensation, not a boundary.
I can not say if there was ever a me. It seems like it is always that way and never changes.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of a 'separate self' is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I can see clearly the thought that is created in the mind of the body in a Room which seems to create the sense of being a me in a body. In daily life it's easy to get distracted by thoughts that there's something to do, to control or decisions to make (I never saw through the illusion of free will or control).
Then the sense of the me gets stronger and reactivity and anxiety increases. Everything feels more contracted and more located within the body.
Sometimes I remember that all of this is just a thought and reactivity decreases until a particular interesting thoughts catches my attention and I'm in the loop of thoughts again.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with a detailed description.

The first time it felt very freeing. There was a lot of joy for existence itself. It felt like a little explosion of joy within the heart area of the body. There was an emotional release happening and a feeling of childlike happiness.
Now it seems to have calmed down. It still feels freeing but more neutral. Peaceful is the best description I would say.
This happened a few days before I started the dialogue and it didn't change since then.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A lot of reactivity, fear, grief and the need to control an outcome. There was a lot of resistence against the present moment. During the guided meditation I was looking at my internal experience and then at my external experience and there was no difference. It was the same. This seems to work very well now. There's no need to meditate. I just need to close my eyes and it feels boundless again.
It doesn't work when my eyes are open or when there's a lot of anxiety.

5) Describe how decision, intention, free will, choice and control works.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Right now there's the feeling that I make things happen. There's a mental understanding that this can't be because I doesn't make logical sense after the me was seen through but the feeling is still there.
Example: My cat isn't doing well right now and nothing seems to really help. So there's a lot of mental chatter and anxiety about that. There's the desire to control the outcome. It feels very contracted in my heart area when thoughts about this come up. It feels like that I need to find a way to fix this and that I'm responsible for the outcome. That by reading more and gathering more data I can find a way to help him. There's a lot of resistence when I think about the fact that I can't control the situation.

6) Anything to add?

No

Thank you!
Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny,

I will research the fetters. This is very new to me and I don't think I understand it fully yet.

You don't need to know the fetters during this inquiry. It's just a model that describes the different 'stages' of awakening in a structured way, and I like it for that. During this inquiry is better that you suspend the reading of spiritual books or spiritual videos/talks because it can distract your mind from the deep looking within. In the end I will give you info where to look about it.

There is a subtle sense of a me, located behind the eyes. When I close my eyes and look at it it feels spacious, still located behind the eyes but without boundaries.

This seems to be your belief of a center of perspective or perception that can be inquired later.
But where is that 'I' that looks at it behind the eyes?
The first question I sent concerns the identification with a self in your mind that was made up of thoughts.
Can you remember 6 years ago how your identity as Conny changed before and after the shift?

I never saw through the illusion of free will or control

We will have a look into this in our dialogues.

It feels very contracted in my heart area when thoughts about this (the cat is sick) come up. It feels like that I need to find a way to fix this and that I'm responsible for the outcome.

It's good that you identified the body sensations that this unpleasant situation causes.
Life will bring pleasant and unpleasant situations for us to deal with, even after deep awakening.
Can you identify the emotion that arises with that body sensation?

Is there a separate self that has control or decides when a cat or person will get sick or die?
Or does it depends of many factors such as age, physical condition, type of sickness, type of treatment, recovery, etc.?

Your cat is sick and you are his/her caretaker. That is reality that you can't deny. You probably need to take him/her to the vet for treatment. If you don't have enough money you can ask donations from relatives, friends or pet associations. It's natural to feel a contraction in the heart because you have affection for your cat.
But is there the need to identify with the mental chatter that creates anxiety?
Can you try to stay just with the unpleasant sensation in the heart and do what you have to do?
Where do those thoughts come from?
Where do they go?
Do the thoughts change the reality that your cat is sick and need treatment?
Do those thoughts belong to anyone?

You also mention in your first message that there is fear arising after the retreat you did.
Can you describe what do you fear?
What is it that you don't want to happen that causes fear?
Which body sensations are associated with it?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

You don't need to know the fetters during this inquiry. It's just a model that describes the different 'stages' of awakening in a structured way, and I like it for that. During this inquiry is better that you suspend the reading of spiritual books or spiritual videos/talks because it can distract your mind from the deep looking within. In the end I will give you info where to look about it

Okay I understand

But where is that 'I' that looks at it behind the eyes?
The first question I sent concerns the identification with a self in your mind that was made up of thoughts

This actually blew my mind. I never questioned this sense of an I. You're totally right, it is a thought.
I've used this yesterday as an Inquiry and looked at it.
I first started to have some tremors in my head. This happens sometimes during this kind of work so I'm not concerned about it.
After that something happened. I'm not quite sure what it actually was. It was just for a brief moment and my mind doesn't seem to understand it so I can't really recall it. I only know that something happened and that it's quite intense.
This is not the first time that this happens. It happens on a regular basis when I'm using guided meditations from Angelo. I just forget it often because the mind is not able to make sense of it.

Can you remember 6 years ago how your identity as Conny changed before and after the shift?

Do you mean the internal experience of the identity?

Can you identify the emotion that arises with that body sensation?

Yes, there's a lot of resistence, guilt, shame and fear.
I was conditioned to believe that death is the most horrible thing that can happen to someone. This is a belief that is for generations in our family and I've picked that up when I was little so that conditioning runs deep in my system. I've done a lot of work around it and it got way better than before but it's still there.
Because I'm his caregiver I see it as my responsibility to prevent death from happening. I know that it logically makes no sense :) but the sensations in the body are different.

Is there a separate self that has control or decides when a cat or person will get sick or die?
Or does it depends of many factors such as age, physical condition, type of sickness, type of treatment, recovery, etc.?

I would say my mind is currently extremly confused about the seperate self. When I look at it I can't find it and then what I described above happens.
But logically no.. even if there's a seperate self there's no way it could control or decide if someone gets sick or dies.

Your cat is sick and you are his/her caretaker. That is reality that you can't deny. You probably need to take him/her to the vet for treatment. If you don't have enough money you can ask donations from relatives, friends or pet associations. It's natural to feel a contraction in the heart because you have affection for your cat.

Yes, I'm a regular at the vet clinic. The treatment just doesn't work like it should. Money is thankfully not an issue in this case because I have a support system that I can rely on.
Yes, I know that. I was always extremly attached to him since he is with me. It got even more intense when I had my oneness experience and he jumped on my bed and our eyes met each other. I could only see "me" looking back at myself through his eyes. This was a very profound bonding experience.
I noticed that it's even harder for me now when he has some health issues.

But is there the need to identify with the mental chatter that creates anxiety?

No, I can sometimes snap out of it. It always depends if I notice that these are thoughts. It's a lot easier when the situation isn't as emotionally charged.
I noticed in general that my thoughts are now mostly about the same things. They all create anxiety which is one of the few things that actually are able to keep me in the loop of thoughts without me noticing it.

Can you try to stay just with the unpleasant sensation in the heart and do what you have to do?

Yes I do stay with the sensations in my body when I'm not completely lost in my thoughts.
Then I can feel the sensations move through the body (heart, throat and sometimes the gut) and then they disappear after a while.
What is harder for me is to stay with them during the day when I'm doing things. I have a habit of dissociation because of childhood trauma. It's not as prevelant anymore and I'm a lot better at staying aware of the body but during an intense experience it can happen again.

Where do those thoughts come from?
Where do they go?

I don't know. They appear from nowhere and disappear. I can't find anything where they come from or where they go.

Do the thoughts change the reality that your cat is sick and need treatment?

No they don't. They make the experience even worse because I can't enjoy the moments that I have with him. When my mind is running like that it clouds my experience of this present moment

Do those thoughts belong to anyone?

No, they just appear and disappear. They don't belong to anyone.

You also mention in your first message that there is fear arising after the retreat you did.
Can you describe what do you fear?

There's fear of the unknown. The fear of loosing control. Which I don't have, I know that logically but I fall back into this pattern a lot.

What is it that you don't want to happen that causes fear?

During the retreat and after what came up a lot was the thought of "I can't let go because otherwise I won't be here anymore". I was very surprised when this came up.
Otherwise it's always death and sickness.
There was also the fear coming up that I can't take care of my life anymore if I continue this path. This is completely new I never had that before

Which body sensations are associated with it?

Fear is for me always a tightness in the chest or in the throat. It also can sometimes move into the gut which is more a feeling of butterflies.

Much love,
Conny

Hi Atmajnani,

I thought I'd give a little update.
Since Inquiring in this way my experience of life starts to change a bit.
I could always remember how life felt during the honeymoon period and it's starting to come to the surface again.
There's a feeling of lightness and freedom.. problems don't seem to be so serious anymore and there's joy without any particular reason coming up.
It is very easy to see thoughts as what they are while being in this state.

Today I woke up like this and just stayed in bed longer to rest in this feeling. Then a thought came up that said: "What if I'm loosing this again"
It was immediately recognized as a thought. It was almost funny to watch my thoughts in this way.
There's no resistance to the moment while this is happening.
Anyway, just wanted to give a little update on that :)

Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny,

So nice to hear that a shift is happening.
Anyway, it's better that we go through the self-inquiry to release any beliefs that is holding back your shift.

First it's important to address your fear.

There's fear of the unknown. The fear of loosing control. ...the thought of "I can't let go because otherwise I won't be here anymore". I was very surprised when this came up. Otherwise it's always death and sickness. There was also the fear coming up that I can't take care of my life anymore if I continue this path. This is completely new I never had that before

Fear is a natural defense mechanism to protect your body from danger. In this case, it is protecting something from being found out that threatens 'YOUR EXISTENCE', so your mind thinks. Sensations are felt in the body and then more thoughts arise that reinforce the 'imagined danger' and increase the intensity of fear. It's a closed loop fed by thoughts!

Take a deep look yourself at what is behind that fear:
Can an insight kill your body?
Can an insight kill the reality of this present moment?
What is real isn't that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it?
If you believed in Santa Claus when you were 5 years old and later discovered that Santa Claus doesn't exist, did the man disguised as Santa Claus died with your discovery?

Fear is an empty room, when you take the courage to look behind the door in spite of the sensations you will find there is nothing in there :-)

After inquiring into the above questions, check again what comes up when I say:
there is not a separate entity called Conny in real life that is the manager in charge or in control of your life.

What comes up, what feelings, thoughts, sensations show up immediately upon letting this idea in?


Warmly,
Atmajnani

Hi Atmajnani,

So nice to hear that a shift is happening.
Anyway, it's better that we go through the self-inquiry to release any beliefs that is holding back your shift.

Absolutely :)

Can an insight kill your body?

No, it can not.

Can an insight kill the reality of this present moment?

No, it doesn't.

What is real isn't that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it?

Yes, that's true.

If you believed in Santa Claus when you were 5 years old and later discovered that Santa Claus doesn't exist, did the man disguised as Santa Claus died with your discovery?

No it didn't. Santa Claus was never real in the first place.

Fear is an empty room, when you take the courage to look behind the door in spite of the sensations you will find there is nothing in there :-)

I have a question about this.
When I'm feeling the fear and the sensations in my body. After a while they just disappear. They do come up later though. Is that how it's supposed to go? That the sensations just disappear? Just want to make sure I'm doing this right :)

I did a guided inquiry last night. It was an inquiry into the mind and there was SO much fear coming up. At one point I felt like I'm going to die, right now. I stayed with it and it disappeared pretty fast. And I'm wondering if I need to work on this fear in layers. Peeling the layers like an onion until theres nothing left?

There was also a point where it hit me that the idea of oneness is another thought as well. It's not my experience in this moment and only a memory so therefore it's just the mind creating an image of what it thinks oneness means. This happened so long ago and memory is not really reliable. I was just clinging to another thought.

What comes up, what feelings, thoughts, sensations show up immediately upon letting this idea in?

At first it is fear, a tightness in the chest but it changed pretty fast into sadness. I can feel it in my throat. It almost feels like a knot. I think I liked the idea of Conny more than I was aware of.

Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny,

Like the belief in Santa Claus, after you positively see in your conscious that the mental construct of Conny is NOT REAL and never was, it will dissolve and will never come back. Other more subtle layers of identity (self-referring beliefs) will remain in place and will be peeled afterwards, one by one like an onion.

When I'm feeling the fear and the sensations in my body. After a while they just disappear. They do come up later though. Is that how it's supposed to go?

Yes, for now just stay with the body sensations of fear and don't identify with the thoughts that arise. This way sensations decrease in intensity and if you repeat this exercise several times fear will become manageable. After seeing there was never a Self, fear will disappear for much longer and then we will take care of it for good in the inquiry of reactivity.

To LOOK for the Self you will use your 5 senses and NOT the content of the thoughts. Example:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple
Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought (label) saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought
saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts content ABOUT something…because that is only just
more thought. Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, touch and thoughts arising.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought (label) ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can the label ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While labels are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is
always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color labelled ‘apple’ is known
Tactile sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is the label apple actually known?

Now do this exercise and reply to the questions:
Mind labelling experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes
about 20 minutes and you will need a pen and paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation, ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a
computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this
time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using
verbs. For example: sitting, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again,
watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Did you notice any differences in the body?
2. Is one truer than the other, and if so, which one?
3. What is here without labels?
4. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?


Warmly,
Atmajnani

Hi Atmajnani,

that was a nice exercise. I really liked it :)

Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body got more calm during the second exercise.
My shoulders released tension and the breathing got deeper. There was more awareness of the breathing and the silence in the room. It got gradually more difficult to describe the current experience because the mind got so calm. It got more and more interesting to be aware of the sensations and the things that happened because the mind stopped labelling so much and then everything was experienced as new. It got so interesting to experience what's happening here, right now. Knowing and labelling didn't matter anymore.
There was more awareness on the sensations happening in the body. Any pain or so called unpleasent sensations in the body where just there and then gone. There was no problem with any of it.

Is one truer than the other, and if so, which one?

The second one is truer.

What is here without labels?

It's just whats happening. Without the mind labelling there's just .. this. It's so hard to describe it because that's just the mind labelling again. It's just.. Life.. ?! :D

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They don't affect the experience at all they just describe it.

Also, yesterday I had a little bit of an emotional release. It was a little aha moment and the acceptance of the fact that the mind can't control life. There was a lot of restlessness and fear before that and as soon as this fact was accepted everything just got very calm.
There's still a little bit of fear coming up during the day but it's way less than the days before and there's just this acceptance of things how they are. Like the mind isn't trying to constantly fix everything and that has an immediate effect on the body.

Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny

It got more and more interesting to be aware of the sensations and the things that happened because the mind stopped labelling so much and then everything was experienced as new. It got so interesting to experience what's happening here, right now. Knowing and labelling didn't matter anymore.

You can do this exercise in your daily life. That is the natural state when the self-referring beliefs disappear. There is no 'I', just simply BEING.

I have another exercise for you to SEE if the mind controls, chooses or decides anything:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller' named Conny of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand - for the exercise?
Can you find Conny or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Hi Atmajnani,

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. It seems to just happen.

Does a thought control it?

No

Can a ‘controller' named Conny of any description be located?

No, I can't find anyone who is controlling the movement.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know. It just happens.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand - for the exercise?

There's a thought that this exercise should be done. But I can't find anyone who is making a decision. It's just a thought that pops up and it is done but the thought doesn't seems to have anything to do with that.

Can you find Conny or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, not at all. It seems to be very clear now that there's no one who is making any decisions. Things just happen. Decisions are made but there's no one here that makes them.

Much love,

Conny

Hi Conny,

Is your mental belief in a self called Conny weakening?

We go on until it drops. When that happens let me know, you will feel particular sensations in the body.

There's a thought that this exercise should be done. But I can't find anyone who is making a decision. It's just a thought that pops up and it is done but the thought doesn't seems to have anything to do with that.

See carefully, there are no thoughts commanding which hand to use or when to turn the palm up and down.

Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, a little water stream which is tumbling down a
hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where,
had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes
to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over
a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.
Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in the
rocks, or the depressions in the ground? Is it even the same entity moment by moment,
or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Conny autonomously intervenes in life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Conny is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Warmly,
Atmajnani