The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The conceptual understanding is supported by science. The self cannot be found in the brain. You could say that the self is energetic impulses going through neural pathways in the brain, the spinal cord and body. Beyond that, it is infinite, unbelievable, unimaginable, indescribable. It is experiential. This goes beyond every concept.

What are you looking for at LU? I have had some good and bad experiences (on drugs) where this seems more like the living truth. I might be in the beginning or in the middle of a journey seeing this more clearly, and I sometimes get very short glimpses of something more real or authentic, or at least different.

I think that my intuition has "known" this for a long time, without being able to define or describe it to anyone. I can remember telling someone that I am going to be the realest version of my self, without knowing exactly what I meant by that. I have for a long time, sensed, maybe hoped for another reality. Another way of living that feels more real and authentic. Several years later, this "dream" I had seems to be more real and accomplishable than I dared to think about.

My behavior has been weird for some time, some might think I am crazy, damaged, although I don't think I am. But I don't really know anything I guess. I have acted out some kind of frustration of not feeling authentic in ways that have drawn attention from people, some toxic people, and some helpful people. I have also had alcohol issues and done some harmful things for myself and others. Maybe to escape this unauthentic, feeling I have had for a long time.

As I mentioned I have had some experience on psychedelic drugs which seemed like a new reality then, but I don't know if I can call that an awakening. There seem to be something that draws me towards that initial awakening, which I think I have not yet had - seeing that there is no real self experientially. Like the ego or self is gone. This is where LU comes in. I am looking for that initial awakening. That shift. I want to come in contact with absolute living truth. See through the dream of separation. I want to see that there is no self. And live from that. In a way I want to die, although I am not choosing suicide. It is like Eckhart Tolle said: The secret to life is to die before you die or something like that. I want liberation. I want realization. I want the end of suffering. I want freedom. Because I have been told that it is possible. I have been told that is my birth right and that it will happen if my intention is drawn towards it and if I really and honestly want it. I am willing to let go of everything. No matter what happens. I don't care about what will happen to me.
The living absolute truth, realization is what I want to come in contact with. I am looking for someone to point to me, and accelerate this process here at LU.

I have not had a clear 1-1 guide/teacher/mentor, or someone I can trust or want to talk about all and nothing to. I want someone that has gone this path before me, and someone I can trust and can talk about all and nothing to, or at least can point me to a direct and effective way home, to realization.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect that the guided conversation will help me see trough "my self", the illusion or dream of separation, see through the ego, or point me to places where I didn't know about. I don't really know what to expect. Angelo DiLullo brought me to this site. He recommends a teacher in his book. Although he says that I have to do the work myself. I feel I am doing a lot of work already, but that a guide might help me concentrate my attention on the "right things". Make this work a habit.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have read, listened to and learned different kinds of meditations and practices, but as described above, I don't think I have had that initial awakening yet.

The story goes like this:
In my 20s: Atheist. Scientific mind. Trust in the scientific community, especially natural sciences. Feeling something need to change with my life. Lots of resistance.

2017: Sam Harris talks about psychedelic experiences in his book and I try LSD for the first time.

2018: More psychedelic experiences. Taking MDMA which really gives me a taste of another reality.
I download the Waking up app by Sam Harris and start doing meditation and listening to talks about training your mind. Seeing through the ego. There is no past or future. Only in your mind.

2019: I go to Burning Man with a group of people. It is an intense experience. It involves lots of psychedelics and some alcohol. I also come in conflict with some personalities in this group of people which I sense is abusive or not being authentic and honest with me. I don't know a clear way to address these issues and my own personal insecurities, and I end up in an emotionally roller-coaster feeling weak with anxiety, shame, anger, confusion, frustration, etc.

2020: I am starting to go more alone, to isolate myself more from people. I am meditating, I start listening to Eckhart Tolle, Jim Newman and learn about Non-Duality. There is a lot of suffering during these times/years.

2021 I quit my job and I learn TM - Transcendental Mediation. After about three months, I come in contact with a voluntary in this community who describes himself as "leading ambassador" for the Jyotish/Astrology organization of Maharishi TM. I end up buying Yagyas and get a Jyotish consultation by Pandits from India. The Yagyas are expensive and are claimed to accelerate your spiritual journey, health and other problems in your life. The leading ambassador asks me to lend him money. I hesitantly agree to lend him big amounts of money, and he gets me hooked with some networking/betting company and alternative advices. During the latter half year I start learning Taiji with a teacher and a group of people, meeting some interesting "alternative" people, reading lots of books and see lots of YouTube-videos on healthy boundaries, self-improvement, non-violent communication, narcissistic abuse, psychopathy, sociopaths, astrology, dark night of the soul, synchronicity, etc., which continues into 2022, trying to learn to not avoid the red flags again.

2022 I end up with a lawyer, financially ruined after the abuse and exploit from the "ambassador". I am lending money from my parents. I stop doing TM and go back to Eckhart Tolle and Non duality, and YouTube personalities. I also get more curious and interested in the Bible and Jesus, which I more or less put down during my later teenage years. I come upon Angelo DiLullo and finish the Taiji-form.

Today I feel more like myself again. I feel that my critical and skeptical self is stronger and more back to normal, although I think am more open and humble than during my 20s. I am now feeling more in control and more freedom, by letting go of resistance. I also feel that I am not in control, but that it is more okey to be in that position. I think there might be more resistance hiding, more work to do. I am doing some inquiries, and currently reading Awake - It's your turn by Angelo DiLullo. I am looking to find some support, guidance or mentor along my path to accelerate the process and to lead me safely back home, to realization. Still, I feel thoughts are the dominating presence during my waking hours. I sometimes catch myself thinking, but I think mostly I am not actually aware of that I am thinking, although it is hard to tell for sure. I am planning to sit 1-2 hours a day with meditation and inquiry each day. I also watch lots of interviews, talks on YouTube and read books, currently Three Pillars of Zen and Angelo's book.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hello KingGong

(Great nickname by the way. Would you like me to call you by another name, or this one?). You can call me Jon.

I read your notes and am offering to guide you, or 'point' to no self. Thank you for the fullness of your story. I could relate to a lot of it including your Burning Man and 'Ambassador' experiences.

Shall we start? We would have a friendly sort of conversation here in which I would ask you questions and it would be for you to look at those. I will not 'teach' anything.

It works best (by far) where we reply to each other daily. Can you do this? Many people tend to slow down rather quickly and many days go by without a reply. Occasionally time may be needed or it may be impossible to reply for some reason. But then it's good to let each other know this, if it's going to happen. Thank you.

Looking forward to working with you

Jon

By the way, I thoroughly recommend the books "Liberation Unleashed" and "Gateless Gatecrashers". Both are available free today on Amazon Kindle. Gateless Gatecrashers is free in that form until Sunday.

Regards

Jon

Hello Jon

Thank you for your compassion and offer to guide and point.

I am pleased to let you guide me and point. You can call me Torgeir.

I am eager to start and ready to look at your questions. I am also willing to check the forum and reply every day, unless something keeps us away from it, which in case I will give you a heads up.

Happy to have found this site and a guide to work with.

I just downloaded "Liberation Unleashed" and "Gateless Gatecrashers" on Kindle and started on Liberation unleashed.


Torgeir

Hi Torgeir

Thanks very much for your reply. Great. We will get started.

Glad you were able to get the Kindle versions of the two books. Illona's book "Liberation Unleashed" has a lot of very good pointers in it.

A very good question to start with is What is your current understanding of what "you" are?

As soon as I hear back from you I'll write again.

Warm regards

Jon

Hi Jon

Something in "me" loves this question, and the answer turned out to be quite long.

A human would be the easy answer I guess. A human consisting of DNA, atoms, particles and energy. But I don't really know exactly what I am because a 'human' is just a concept-box which is based on my own interpretation, which is where I put "me" inside.

I think I am the the thing that makes me sentient, or is sentient, and able to have this experience in the first place: Reading your question, reasoning, looking, noticing and formulating an answer.
I can't find this thing in my experience and label it, it is more of a background intuition or instinct, maybe a feeling in the heart and the breath. Something that moves in the background. Or doesn't move.
I might be repeating things I have been told, but it feels like that sometimes.

Right now it actually feels like I am nothing specific at all. Like God in a very limited way, sitting in front of a computer, looking at the view, feeling the senses and thoughts, although I don't think I am the senses and thoughts,
more like the energy of the senses and thoughts. Yes. I am the energy of the senses, feelings and thoughts.

A very specific composition of atoms, particles and energy, which is sentient. And even those labels are not what I am, because what I am is direct and experiential, and therefore I am life itself.
Atoms, particles and energy are models trying to describe that absolute truth, but I don't know what energy really is other than what is. And that seems to be what I am. Life experiencing itself.


Warmly

Torgeir

Hi Torgeir

. Something in "me" loves this question, and the answer turned out to be quite long.

It's fun. This inquiry can be veri interesting actually. Nobody ever asks this sort of question normally, do they? (,At least not at school).

. A human would be the easy answer I guess. A human consisting of DNA, atoms, particles and energy. But I don't really know exactly what I am because a 'human' is just a concept-box which is based on my own interpretation, which is where I put "me" inside.

Yes! This seems true. "A human" is a concept. As you say, very much down to interpretation. It's a neat label but it seems to remain purely conceptual.

In reality where is the immediate experience of 'DNA" or "atoms" or even "being a human"?

. A very specific composition of atoms, particles and energy, which is sentient. And even those labels are not what I am, because what I am is direct and experiential, and therefore I am life itself.

Very nice :-). Now, reading all that you wrote you seemed to work your way to this conclusion. Reasoning can be helpful and experience can be very revealing. I have one or two exercises to suggest, if you're up for this?

Conventionally it is said that "I see" and it is imagined that it is "eyes" or "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing

So, right here and now this screen is seen. But what is doing the seeing? What is the immediate experience? Is it one of "eyes doing seeing" or of "a body seeing"? Or what?

Cheers

Jon

Hi

It's fun. This inquiry can be veri interesting actually. Nobody ever asks this sort of question normally, do they? (,At least not at school).

That is true. I asked a similar question to a friend this summer. He replied "I am me." spontaneously. I laughed and thought that he was right.

Very nice :-). Now, reading all that you wrote you seemed to work your way to this conclusion. Reasoning can be helpful and experience can be very revealing. I have one or two exercises to suggest, if you're up for this?

Yes. Keep them coming :-)

So, right here and now this screen is seen. But what is doing the seeing? What is the immediate experience? Is it one of "eyes doing seeing" or of "a body seeing"? Or what?

In reality where is the immediate experience of 'DNA" or "atoms" or even "being a human"?

I think you gave a hint to the answer. The immediate experience is the key.
It is tempting for me to say that the eyes and body at least have a part in seeing. If I cover or close the eyes, the seeing gets dark or there is no seeing.
But as I reason again, this is not the immediate experience. Seeing is just seeing. There is no immediate experience of a lag or cause and effect between seeing and using my body/eyes. There is just seeing. There is just colors and texture appearing, and then there is thoughts and sensations/feelings in the body, and the colors and texture change again. Colors and texture appear dark when my hand is in front of the eyes. However, it seems like the hand is the cause of that. I have never done this experiment before, so that is quite interesting to "see".
What is doing it I don't know because I can't find it. It is just prior to interpretation. Seeing is doing the seeing.

Cheers

Torgeir

Ha ha! Wonderful.

"Seeing is just doing the seeing". It does look that way and yes, covering eyes with hands there is still seeing (albeit of darkness).

Ok well, how about hearing? Some people love this one. Sit for a while where you will not be disturbed and just notice whatever is heard. This could be very quiet sound, such as breathing, or electrical hum from somewhere, or louder;. birdsong, voices, cars going by. It doesn't matter if it's a mix of things. No need to focus on one sound it to try to ignore another.

Now, what is doing the hearing? Do ears hear? Is there an experience of ears hearing? It even "brain hearing"? Is there direct experience if a brain doing hearing?

Also, is there any experience of a separation between the sound and the hearing of it? (This question can be applied to seeing too).

Do you notice thoughts appearing too? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do appear, are thoughts doing anything to make hearing happen?

Cheers

Jon

I have listened to the dish washer and surroundings for a while now and the sounds and environment got more intimate.

I thought I might be more patient and listen more, and write back later, but it is fun to write back as well and I thought I would reply when the experience was fresh.

First, the sounds where just sounds, no thoughts or experience about ears or brain. Then it came over me that it is the attention that is doing the hearing. Without attention, I can't hear. I don't know if attention is really doing anything, or if it is more of an allowing the hearing than doing the hearing. It feels a little bit like it is creating the hearing or doing it when I look closely.

I could not find any separation from the sounds. But thoughts interrupting did make the thoughts seem separate from the sounds. I also sensed a distance, or the direction of where the sound was coming from, but I did not feel separate from that distance or direction. I shifted my attention on seeing again, and there was no separation in seeing neither. The hearing got more intimate and now I am feeling more relaxed and more aliveness in seeing and hearing, which feels good.

Thanks!


Torgeir

Hi Torgeir

This is all great. I won't write back at length just now. Have fun playing with seeing and hearing.

Question is, who...or what, is doing the attention?

All best

Jon

Hi

I am not sure what is more precise to say. I don’t experience something behind the attention.
Thoughts that came to my mind was unconditional love, mystery, life and nothing or no one.

Sincerely
Torgeir

Hi,

Yes, I was going to ask if theres a "someone" somewhere, anywhere, that is doing attention?. Its worth looking to find out.

. Thoughts that came to my mind

Yes, thoughts. These do appear, don't they? But is there a 'my mind' that 'thinks' these?

Another way to ask this is, is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try it.

Cheers

Jon

Hi Jon!

I have to admit it is difficult to look for the doer of the attention, if not impossible. It's like trying to put the gear in reverse while driving at 80 km/h or calculating the root of 500 while writing a poem. Sometimes I hear thoughts explain what to focus 'my' attention on, but no one is doing the attention. If anyone is doing it, it is 'me'. When I look for the 'me' or someone, there is no one presenting themselves as 'me' or is someone, just more ordinary experience or nothing at all. But it feels like the head and face is involved which feels familiar and so close and personal that it seems I can't see through the 'me'-ness of the it. It seems like that feeling is also in the background while daydreaming or during/after conversations. A heavy or cloudy feeling. This 'me'-ness feels like it herds the attention. Which is the same as focusing I guess.

I tried to prevent thoughts for a while. They seem impossible to prevent. I don't know what will happen if my body dies or if I lost my head, maybe there would be no more thoughts, although that is just more thoughts. The closest I come to stop thinking is when I rest in presence for a moment or 'herd' my attention on a specific thing.


Cheers


Torgeir

Hi Torgeir

. I have to admit it is difficult to look for the doer of the attention, if not impossible. It's like trying to put the gear in reverse while driving at 80 km/h or calculating the root of 500 while writing a poem. Sometimes I hear thoughts explain what to focus 'my' attention on, but no one is doing the attention. If anyone is doing it, it is 'me'. When I look for the 'me' or someone, there is no one presenting themselves as 'me' or is someone, just more ordinary experience or nothing at all.

Well done for attempting this. I asked you to look for a doer of attention. But can one actually be found? Attention happens, for sure.

I like very much what you say about hearing thoughts explain about "what to focus my attention on". It's interesting to see how thoughts have appeared with word-labels that imply a controller that could "do" this. And yet it's also seen that no-one is doing the attention.

. But it feels like the head and face is involved which feels familiar and so close and personal that it seems I can't see through the 'me'-ness of the it. It seems like that feeling is also in the background while daydreaming or during/after conversations. A heavy or cloudy feeling. This 'me'-ness feels like it herds the attention. Which is the same as focusing I guess.

I understand.

Nobody ever manages to see though "their own me-ness". Or put another way, how is an "I" supposed to see through "I"? This can seem like a terrible catch 22.

There is the popular assumption that "I think" and that it is "me" that "does" this. Look a creator of thoughts. Try creating a thought. What happens ?

Along with that assumption goes the common belief that thinking happens in or around the head or face. We can look into this too.

Imagine a huge iceberg out at sea. Notice where the iceberg is. Is there an image? Does that iceberg fit inside a head? Is a head containing the image of an iceberg?


Also, it would be good to look at this "heavy cloudy feeling" to see if it is actually a feeling it sensation. Is it an association of thoughts about "feeling heavy and clouded"?

Let me know how you get on?

Cheers

Jon