The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That I am not my mind, my body, my thoughts, my feelings.
Some months ago I experienced an awakening where I could sense emptiness of desires, goals, opinions, etc.
It was a strange new perspective for me, and there was no fear, just witnessing.
Emptiness is the better word I can find to describe that there is no 'I'.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to release the remaining beliefs that prevents a full experience of awakening.
I realize that several beliefs and habits have weakened or were released over the years, but I'm still experiencing Reactivity in very specific situations. It's not so much an emotional reaction, but a desire to fix a behavior in other people that I perceive as unconscious and 'wrong'. The following fetters are not completely released either. I have a strong desire to release fetter 10 and end delusion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect an accelerated process of awakening with the help of a guide using the 10 fetters method.
Because I have not used this method before, I need help with the self-inquiry which seems difficult to grasp sometimes.
In addition, I have the required courage and honesty to embark in self-inquiry.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I started a 'spiritual path' about 16 years ago with meditation and yoga practices. I also did selfless service along the years. I was attracted by Indian teachers from the beginning, although I have no boundaries with spiritual schools. I received teachings on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (Yogic path), the Bhagavad Guita (Bhakti path), I did a couple of Vipassana meditation retreats (Buddhist path). I have read teachings of Ramana Maharshi (Jnani path) which points to self-inquiry, but I found it difficult to grasp. I embarked on a bhakti path of following an India guru who claims to be an Avatar and realized she had controlling issues yet to solve. I don't stick to rituals and routines. I am a practitioner of Vortex Healing.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Good morning,

We don't guide Ten Fetters here. Christiane Michelberger does. See www.findingawakening.com as well as her Facebook group and book by the same name.

Another excellent method for dealing with reactivity is The Work of Byron Katie, www.thework.com

It sounds as though you may have already seen there is No Self. That is all we guide here.

I can post our "final"questions to check on that & help with anything we do here: no self, no control no free will, no decisions, etc. but that's about it.

Let me know if you'd like to see those.

Loving,

Stacy

Dear Anastacia42,

Thank you for your clarification.
Yes, I would like to receive the questions as I had an awakening only a few months ago and haven't had the time to read the Gateless Gatecrashers or Christiane's book yet.

Kind regards,
Atmajnani

Okay, we can addressable anything that's not clear.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving

~ Stacy

Please be sure to use the Quote function. I read these on my phone most of the time.

Thanks!

Stacy

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. I realized that the 'true Self' was emptiness and that it was the mind that constructed all that I thought I was and wanted. When the mind gets silenced there's only emptiness, just being.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Since I was born, all the conditioning I received developed a sense of 'I' in the mind that I have mistaken as being my 'true Self'. My desires, goals, plans and emotional reactions were then created out of that identity, that false 'I'. I used to feel a lot of frustration, anger and insecurity (suffering) when life circumstances did not meet 'my' expectations. My typical reaction was to exert control over other people and my life circumstances.
When I experienced the emptiness of true Self (or no-Self), first there was a bewilderment that lasted for weeks accompanied by a deep passivity, contemplation and physical tiredness. I felt peace and contentment, no need to control or change my current life circumstances. I could observe my thoughts and know that they are not my true Self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Presently, 4.5 months after the No-Self awakening event, I live in the present moment with peace and contentment. I avoid making plans and taking decisions with a long time in advance and always check how 'I feel' in the moment in relation to doing an activity. I feel drawn to spend more time in nature, either in the garden, beach or woods. I don't think about the past and don't worry much about the future.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit was pushed/pulled energetically by an awakened teacher. I guess I was ripen.
I didn't use the 10 fetters method. Although in 2010 I had a shift in perspective on the Self after reading the book The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. And other shifts happened along the years with life experience and different practices.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

I avoid taking decisions with a long time in advance and always check how 'I feel' in the moment in relation to doing an activity. If I feel uplifted I go forward, if I feel resistance or discomfort I don't do it. In the past few days, my mind sometimes says I should do this or that in order to change my professional situation (I'm unemployed since February). I still experience resistance to take action in this area, mostly because my interest for a corporate job faded away and I would like to be an independent worker, but it's still not very clear how. On the other hand, when I found the LU website I decided very fast to request a guide and do self-inquiry to fast-forward awakening.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

After the 'no-Self awakening' my intentions and desires dissolved. I realized that most intentions and desires were created by the separate Self. I felt confused for some weeks because I didn't know my true intentions/desires or if there was any at all. But my intention/desire to awaken was not impaired. Presently, I have the intention or desire to create an independent activity for my livelihood. I still lack a detailed vision to move forward.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I have total free will when I am beyond all conditioning of beliefs and habits.
Paradoxically, my desire/intention to release the 10 fetters comes from that free will, in spite of the beliefs and habits still in place.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I still feel 'I' have to make a few choices in life that in reality are conditioned by my fears, attachments, beliefs and habits. In any case, I try to make the wisest choice not from an egoistic perspective, but from an holistic perspective. For instance, last year I chose/decided to sign a contract to buy an apartment still under construction. Eight months later I chose/decided to leave my job and two months ago I chose/decided to sell the rights of that contract with some profit, because I was unemployed and did not know when I would have a regular income or if I would move to work somewhere else. There is a reasoning behind each choice, yet it feels it was the wisest choices I could make in those circumstances.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is a BIG issue for me that is not over yet, although it has weakened over time. It's a pull from the separate Self to be in a Power position, it wants to be right. Nowadays, I don't offer much resistance or exert control in many daily circumstances, but I still have emotional reactions with my parents or with someone else that tries to control me (at work for instance). I'm living with my senior parents for the last 2 years (they are 80 and 81 years old) and sometimes it's tough to be patient, non-judgmental and non-reactive with them and vice-versa.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Life happens in spite of my separate Self. But most things that happen in Life are caused by this separation and resulting dysfunction of thoughts and emotions.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I am responsible for the willingness to release the beliefs and habits that create a separate Self. And until liberation happens, I have to assume responsibility for my conditioned actions, words and thoughts.

6) Anything to add?

Christiane Michelberger is overbooked this year. It seems she did the self-inquiry with Kevin Schanilec and he did it in this website with Sixth Patriarch. Are you sure your website doesn't have a guide beyond the fetters?

Love
AtmaJnani

Hi,

Are you sure your website doesn't have a guide beyond the fetters?

Yes. I am absolutely certain we do not guide the Fetters in this forum. This question has come up repeatedly in my 4 or 5 years here. We only guide to no self. The first 3 Fetters tend to fall together.

Once we clear up your replies to Question #5, I can point you to a recently created study group that is attempting to look into the Fetters, but only after we finish here.

Here's a pointer to look at "control."

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Then we can look into the other items on Question 5.

Loving,

~ Stacy

Here's a pointer to look at "control."
Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

It's not controlled by the separate Self. It starts with an intention and then the automatic nervous system does the rest. I had this insight: how wonderful if every aspect of my everyday life could run in automatic mode in such an easy way! Many things do, but there is still some doubts and beliefs in the way. Where do intentions come from? Is intention different from thought? Do they come from different 'places' within me? Does a person beyond the fetters have no intentions and thoughts?

Does a thought control it?

No, it runs automatically after the initial intention.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, I can't locate it but haven't got rid of it either in certain life situations.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is no decision made or decision point to turn the hand over. The process runs automatically from a single intention of flipping the hand over and over again. I have to meditate on this: what in my life is not running automatically? And why?

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

No one chose. It was the one that required least effort and was available. Great insight to look deep into my everyday life.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. It's an automatic process.

Love,
AtmaJnani

Good morning, AtmaJnani,

It's not controlled by the separate Self. It starts with an intention and then the automatic nervous system does the rest.

WHAT "separate self? ' Is any such thing as a "separate self"? If not, why refer to it doing anything?

LOOK for this intention. Intention is a thought, right?

How does this thought cause anything?

how wonderful if every aspect of my everyday life could run in automatic mode in such an easy way!

What if it is already doing this & only your thinking gets in the way? LOOK and see this. Here is a pointer to help:


Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "AtmaJnani" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'AtmaJnani' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

As always, relax & have fun!

Loving,

~ Stacy

Note: blue font is for Exercise questions I give you. No need for you to use blue.

Quote is for quoting those before your reply. Quote only the question you're answering, not the wholeExercise, please.

Also read this please:

This is how to LOOK for no self, no free will, no intention, no control, etc. in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Loving,

~ Stacy

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Thank you. I think it's clear now.

Good. I skipped too much of the early pointers because you have seen there is no self. I'm going to backtrack some so that you get all of the finer points.

Thanks,
Stacy

Please do read Gateless Gatecrashers. That will help clarify a lot of things.

Much love,
Stacy

Please do read Gateless Gatecrashers. That will help clarify a lot of things.

I will do it in the following days.

Love,
Atmajnani

Good.

Please Quote & reply to everything in blue font that was posted Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:59 am

Thanks,
Stacy