The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Seeing into paradoxical yet so ordinary nature of everyday experience. Actually seeing directly. So looking at the structure of what I consider and belief myself to be. So by using direct pointers to see through my own beliefs and also how my tendencies to hold onto the identity.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for a direct realization of the absence of the separate self, which in daily life in kind of moment to moment experience. To look and discuss with someone who is clear on this topic and can be a friend that will point out things that elude me from ordinary experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect probably a set of questions from which we will start. That is either structured or natural depending probably on my responses. Then the guide will probably see my own holding points, delusions or imperceptions that I was not aware of or did not inspect before.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? My experience includes 10 years of daily meditation exploring mostly buddhism. in Dec 2015 there was a unity experience in which there was no self and no gap with the experience. The I was everywhere, everyone and no-one at the same time beyond. This was a half-day "no-experience". After that the appearance of self returned but not in the same way, it is here but after that experience it is not so serious? I lack my words here. I studied Adyashanti, Gangaji, Rupert Spira, and their techniques talks and satsangs to try to clarify the experience and see into the nature of the separate self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

During our dialog, some rules must be respected :

Come here at least once a day (don't wait expressly for emails, sometimes it does not work). Maintaining the flow of looking is the key and this indicates about your motivation and commitment to this stuff.
Leave aside all books, audios, videos about spirituality
Be honest with yourself when giving answers to my questions : the answer must be given from direct experience not from memory nor from what you read or heard. Direct experience is the clue : looking at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations)

Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Best for you

Warissem

During our dialog, some rules must be respected :

Come here at least once a day (don't wait expressly for emails, sometimes it does not work). Maintaining the flow of looking is the key and this indicates about your motivation and commitment to this stuff.
Leave aside all books, audios, videos about spirituality
Be honest with yourself when giving answers to my questions : the answer must be given from direct experience not from memory nor from what you read or heard. Direct experience is the clue : looking at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations)

Hi,
thank you for the information,
I will do my best

best,
morningtea

Hi

Glad to see you here. First, there is a need to clarify about expectations.

What are your expectations after having seen through the belief of a separate self ?
How will this feel?
How will this change your everyday life ?

Answer separately to each question

Kind regards

Warissem

Hi,

What are your expectations after having seen through the belief of a separate self ?

First thing that occurs to me is that it should be stable that free state. But as it appeared I see that and sadness rolls out because I know its not possible to hold experience still, also relief that I do not have to. I do not have to hold it in place.

How will this feel?

This feels good like freeing, opening to presence. I feel like energy is shifting and easing up. Having looked into that expectaion, and looking even now it was like a weight in my system.

How will this change your everyday life ?

It seems it I might be kinder to myself and the moment, after examining the expectation. Kind of honest kindness and lightness. It almost bring tears to my eyes. I never looked at that this way.

Kindly,
morningtea

Good evening

First thing that occurs to me is that it should be stable that free state. But as it appeared I see that and sadness rolls out because I know its not possible to hold experience still, also relief that I do not have to. I do not have to hold it in place.

Yes all experiences come and go.

This feels good like freeing, opening to presence.

It is already the case, it needs to be recognized.

I feel like energy is shifting and easing up. Having looked into that expectaion, and looking even now it was like a weight in my system.

I don’t understand what you mean here : what is this system ? what is this weight ?

It seems it I might be kinder to myself and the moment, after examining the expectation. Kind of honest kindness and lightness. It almost bring tears to my eyes. I never looked at that this way.

This kindness and lightness are always here, these feelings are welcoming you home. They say, stay open, you are home istself.

Kind regards

Warissem

I don’t understand what you mean here : what is this system ? what is this weight ?

I mean without the expectation, or when the expectation is examined and it kind of drops off, and the difference in that is the lightness feeling in the bodymind system. But when i look at the "bodymind system" i cannot find one,It feels like presence of momentary experience. And that experience is lighter from examining the expectation about no-self

This kindness and lightness are always here, these feelings are welcoming you home. They say, stay open, you are home istself.

this is so beautiful to read, and to feel that actually.

Best,
morningtea

Hi

Thank you for your reactivity.

I mean without the expectation, or when the expectation is examined and it kind of drops off, and the difference in that is the lightness feeling in the bodymind system. But when i look at the "bodymind system" i cannot find one,It feels like presence of momentary experience. And that experience is lighter from examining the expectation about no-self

“There is no one” : is it seen as an actual experience ?

this is so beautiful to read, and to feel that actually.

Yes, beautiful to read that it is felt actually.

You said that the body/mind system feels like presence of momentary experience. Yes and there is an investigation to do.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Kind regards

Warissem

Hi, thank you for the post,
I was practicing it today

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, in the experience there is no reference point and no sense of that information

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Its funny to find this one,sensations do not weight anything,
And the volume is uncertain, i cannot find volume, it appears to be that, but looking closely there is no volume

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, not really, at least nothing i can find. :)

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

In the experience I could not find boundary between the body and clothing, one seamless experience.
Boundary between the body and chair like a border i did not find, just pleasant sensation, same with the body-clothes boundary

Is there an inside or an outside?

What it feels like is both - at the same time, and also neither one of them.
but when I use the word inside, if feels like inside the experience as the experience. And same is with the word outside.
Inside and outside - feels like both in the same experience. Does it make sense?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

When I look, it seems like it is referring to - sensations that are inseparable from experiencing.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

I have a slight sense that these sensations are sensing themselves. And sitting in it, the actual experience of the bodyfeels like sensing. so not like in form or shape but sensing as itself. Just sensing.
Does it make sense?

best,
morningtea

Hi morningtea

You have done good observations.

I have a slight sense that these sensations are sensing themselves.

Do you see how thoughts are playing here ? you are not describing direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations).
Can a color see itself ? Can a sound hear itself ? Can a sensation sense itself ? Look at direct experience.

And sitting in it, the actual experience of the bodyfeels like sensing. so not like in form or shape but sensing as itself. Just sensing.
Does it make sense?

Yes.

Now, there is a similar exercise about an object : bring any object in front of you (a cup, a bottle, an iphone, ...) :

Eyes open, look at the object (let's say a cup for example) and answer to theses questions :
Do you see a cup or are they only colors ?
Do you see a form or are they only colors ?

Then, close your eyes and touch the object and answer to these questions :
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how big the cup is?
Does the cup have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the cup have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the cup and your hand ?

Is the cup inside or outside?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the cup ? eyes open and eyes closed.

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi warissem,

Do you see how thoughts are playing here ? you are not describing direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations).

Reading it it makes so much sense,

Can a color see itself ? Can a sound hear itself ? Can a sensation sense itself ? Look at direct experience.

Such beautiful sentences, going directly to these, looking at direct experience its very clear that no. No color nor sound nor sensation can hear themselves.

Do you see a cup or are they only colors ?

In that experience, only colors, thought tries to go there and name it cup and form, but experience only colors

Can it be known how big the cup is?

In the sensation no, its just sensation

Does the cup have a weight or volume?

Nope just sensation

In the actual experience does the cup have a shape or a form?

Even when thought say yes, in the experience there is no such thing found just sensation

Is there a boundary between the cup and your hand ?

there is not a boundary, in the sensation is not found hand nor cup, and no boundary between the two

What is the ACTUAL experience of the cup ? eyes open and eyes closed.

Open eyes, the actual experience is seeing colors and sensing
and closed eyes its just sensation

Best,
morningtea

Hi

Great observations.

There is an exercise investigating thoughts.

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

Take time to each question : you can give answers to 3 or more questions per day.

Good looking

Warissem

Hi warissem,

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

I cannot find such thing as inherent self outside of thought, all I find is direct experience

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

What a strange question, I love it (and even this was recognized as a thought when writing it down)
thought experience a thought - No it cannot experience thought in direct experience.
And the second part - No thought cannot experience anything, it can think it does but that’s just thought

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Thought does not make contact with other kind of senses, thought never went to other senses, kind of like never touched them. it seems like that.

Best,
morningtea

Good morning

You have clear observations. I am waiting to the other answers.

Thank you

Warissem

Good evening,

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment:
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

yes, it comes up effortlessly in the experience, like a wave in the ocean.
Its just happening, appearing, being, no effort on my part definitely.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

Hmm there is a sense that it is not.
Is it really continuous? - no, it's not really,
Can thoughts touch - as soon as the thought is gone, there is only a rememberance of that though which is another thought, so they cannot really touch. Yeah its just thought that is claiming that there is a continuous story, lol. it is very interesting to look at these investigations. I am very grateful for these

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Can I know the next thought - no, its just is, appearing
Yes it can only be known as it appears. And yes, such claim cannot be made. This looked at in the direct experience is it clear that the spontaneity with which it arises with no effort. It arises from not knowing beforehand what it is. Not knowing What these choices, or impulses will be nor what thoughts will arise. So I cannot claim that. and Investigation before it arises is not possible because it is only known as it arises. hmm interesting. Hope it makes sense

thank you again,

best,

morningtea