The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? the sense of 'self' is an amalgamation of memories, beliefs, emotions, etc. that create an image of "who i am" -- however, nowhere contained in any of these is my experienced sense of self. they come and go, yet i do not.

What are you looking for at LU? a teacher, guide, or advisor. i'm a very good self-learner, but also a teacher, and i appreciate the ability of a teacher to identify unique ways of communicating understanding, and i would like someone who can help me better understand what i'm experiencing and point me in the right direction.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? further pointing, challenging, and exposure to new thoughts (lol) and interpretations. i hope to find someone who can identify with my journey and speak from their own experience to help me uncover subtle truths and identify any misunderstandings.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? christian upbringing, with some experiences with what i would still call "truth" in the sense that i connected with something that was real, personal, and greater than myself, this reality, or anything embodied in any text or tradition. i was turned off by the exclusivity and close-mindedness, so i more or less defected. i studied science in school and informally, ultimately arriving at the conclusion that science is still coming to which is that there's no bottom to the mystery and face-value isn't reality. a brief dabbling in philosophy exposed me to non-duality and i've been reading, watching, and practicing for about 6 months.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Good morning (here in Colorado, USA)

exposure to new thoughts (lol)

Yes, that's ironic, isn't it?

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

~ Stacy

Hi Stacy, you can call me Ryan, and I am in Central timezone (just outside of Houston, TX). I am new at this type of forum so forgive me if things look a little wonky off the bat, but I'll try to stick to the rules. Thanks for your detailed response and I look forward to working with you. I expect complete and direct honesty, I am not here to feel validated or to be right or otherwise, I simply want the truth. If you need to hurt my feelings to accomplish that, by all means go ahead and let me have it.

How will life change?

Life will flow naturally and I will be part of it. I will see the futility of controlling and manipulating reality to what I think I want it to be and find peace in what is.

Challenges and difficulties will still arise, but they will be seen as something to be experienced rather than controlled, changed, or defeated. I will continue to pursue my interests, leverage my strengths, and enjoy the things that bring me joy and allow me to do good in the world, but I will see temporary distractions for what they are and treat them accordingly.

I realize there is a healthy amount of ego written into these responses, but as you suggested, I'm being honest and not overanalyzing too much (that part will be tough for me, but it's important).

How will you change?

I will find joy in the mundane, seeing the beauty in raw existence and the sheer "isness" of it all. I will no longer need to suffer, no longer need to push and pull and try and fail or succeed. I will just be.

I will be more present and unselfish, I will set aside my stories to truly hear those around me, I will connect with love and empathy with no agendas or baggage.

I will be authentic, and live a life of truth without apology. I will continue to be curious and love music. I will see that negative feelings aren't an obstacle, nor really negative at all, but experiences to live.

What will be different?

I've spent much of my life in self doubt, judgement, inadequacy, and anxiety and fear. I wish to be free of all of this, so that I can love myself, be myself, love my life and all those and what is in it without prejudice, fear, or a need to control.

I suspect things like career and such will go on as they do, and perhaps I'll find a new joy in the roles I play or I'll find that life will go a different direction. Any of that is welcome.

I will still be a father, husband (ideally), and friend. But better and fully authentic, without doubt or criticism of myself, responding from the love that is in me rather than reacting in fear or doubt.

What is missing?

I want to say nothing, but that's not true to me. I'm missing some perspective or point of view that will allow me to see truth. I feel like the scene in Apollo 13 where they have to do that awkward controlled burn but the ship's controls operate backwards and they have to nail this little dot to the center of the circle but the struggle between too much of this and not enough of that is always fighting them. They nail it in the end.

I know I push and pull, and I know I need to let go. But I feel like there are so many levers and when I take my eyes off of one I grab another without realizing it. So I guess I feel like that scene in Apollo 13 but with the caveat that the only solution is to do nothing. Or something like that.

I feel like occasionally I position my perspective just so that I align with the view-port and catch a glimpse of the truth before I get distracted, pulled to the side, step in something, or something shifts around me and then I've lost the angle and feel trapped again.

- Ryan

Stacy,

I remembered I had a follow up question:

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

I have been reading and watching youtube videos quite a bit on this subject. I read "Awake" by Angelo DiLullo and watch a lot of his content, I'm reading "Emptiness Dancing" by Adyashanti currently (also watch his videos occasionally), and purchased but haven't gotten into "The 3 Pillars of Zen" by Philip Kapleau. I've also read most of "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. I do this in my spare time and whenever the urge strikes me, frequently while I'm driving I'll have a video playing and I tend to use guided meditation tracks about half the time I'm actively trying to meditate.

I've started to develop a meditation habit but it's not terribly well defined or adhered to. I've purchased a month-long pass to a local float therapy place and have been using their float tanks for meditation as well, went 4 times last week (overkill) and plan to go twice this week and roughly that much each week for the next few weeks.

I say all this because I want to know where to pull back. I respect the wisdom of clarity and focus and while my mind is eagerly trying to "learn" as much as possible, I'm willing to put a pin in whatever I need to. From your direction it sounds as if I should generally stop "seeking knowledge" for now, focus on my practice and this engagement we've kicked off. Am I reading that correctly?

Hi Ryan,

Your expectations aren't too extreme. Just remember that it could take years of back-and-forth to settle in. It's rarely one and done.

I guess I feel like that scene in Apollo 13 but with the caveat that the only solution is to do nothing. Or something like that.

That's pretty much true. Do, but without attachment.

You're not trying to make something happen. You're allowing what already is to be noticed, beyond all the made up stories.

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been & never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

Loving,
Stacy

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been & never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

Conceptually, it makes complete sense. I think I've always had a sense that the "I" that I take myself to be is somehow unique or of a different substance from my experience as a human, as Ryan, and as part of the world. That statement is probably ignorant in its inelegant wording, but somehow I've always known that you and I are the same but just having seen different lives. I remember telling high school students back when I was a teacher that asked what it was like being "old" (paraphrasing): "I don't really feel any different from when I was a teenager, or even a kid, I've just seen more shit" -- that persistent "me" wasn't changing, so how could the construction of a lifetime of experiences in an aging body who identified as a student, then a teacher, then an engineer, then a teacher again actually be "me"?

I say conceptually, because, even though I think I've tasted brief moments of "no-self", I don't regularly experience life this way, even though I can conjure up an idea of it pretty much any time. It's not real though, that's just my learning showing up trying to be no-self.

On a separate note, and forgive me if this is against the rules, but are you open to video chatting? I tend to overthink less and communicate more authentically and from the heart when I'm speaking, plus there's the whole challenge of communicating feeling via text. No worries if not, wanted to ask and see. I so far have been pretty good about keeping my responses authentic and not self-editing, so this very well could work out great.

I'm just thankful to have someone to talk to about this who has been down this path. Thank you for showing up in my journey.

Thank you. All good.

I tend to multi task, maybe with TV on while responding. And I often reply at 3 am if I get up & see your reply. That probably won't work for you. :)

Let's do a few basics & then we can try a video chat. Weekends are best for that, probably. I work about 7:30 am to 3:30 pm half an hour from home.

Keep your answers simple. That will help.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

~ Stacy

As for your question

I read "Awake" by Angelo DiLullo and watch a lot of his content, I'm reading "Emptiness Dancing" by Adyashanti currently (also watch his videos occasionally), and purchased but haven't gotten into "The 3 Pillars of Zen" by Philip Kapleau. I've also read most of "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. I do this in my spare time and whenever the urge strikes me, frequently while I'm driving I'll have a video playing and I tend to use guided meditation tracks about half the time I'm actively trying to meditate.

One thing about this is that we don't know all the teachers out there. Some of them may be complementary to what we do, that others may be way off base and we won't know.

DiLullo & Adyashanti are known to me & in alignment with what we do here. Tolle is fine. I've heard of "The 3 Pillars of Zen" by Philip Kapleau & never read it.

it sounds as if I should generally stop "seeking knowledge" for now, focus on my practice and this engagement we've kicked off. Am I reading that correctly?

Yes. Knowledge isn't what we're after. We want to LOOK & SEE. Literally with the eyes.

Believing thinking is the problem!

So, for now, meditate if you like, but stop trying to stuff more knowledge into an already full cup, ok? We want to look past thinking to Actual Direct Experience. Keep Colored Socks and the list of DE in mind.

If you want something to listen to while driving, call up the Liberation Unleadhed videos on You Tube or the interviews with guides found there.

Loving,

Stacy

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I feel pretty clear about the pointer, but what are you suggesting I do with it? Or better said, how would you recommend I investigate this?

I've noticed when doing self inquiry during meditation or even when doing other things, I pretty easily arrive at a place where I have to shrug my proverbial shoulders and say "yep, there's no nugget of self here, if I discount the memories and plans, all I find is thoughts, senses, sensation, emotion, and this infinitesimally thin and transparent layer of awareness that seems inseparable from the experience itself." But as soon as another person enters the picture or I get caught up in something that distracts me from that fact, it collapses back to mind-identification.

One barrier I've come up against over and over again is I arrive at a place that feels largely devoid of what I would call "gross thought" -- meaning I don't have a story going nor visceral images or memories or thoughts of future -- but then there's a voice saying "yea, here we are, this is it? what if you're doing it wrong?..." and so on, pretty insistently. Whenever I try to ignore that voice, the voice narrates my attempts to ignore it. When I try to stop the voice, it will temporarily silence and then I feel a sort of discomfort that ultimately starts the voice up again describing the discomfort to/for me.

I could use some help with this layer of thought, because it feels way more tightly bound than what I would consider those higher-level, gross thoughts. This voice feels like "me" way more than the rest. It's as if it is the ego speaking to me directly, or more specifically, on my behalf. Which I can sense can't be true because I can see that I'm aware of that, and it's not "me." It just won't shut up.

I will continue to do some investigation and see if I can find a way under it, as I feel eradicating it isn't really the answer or necessary, I just need to disidentify with it. I think, lol.

Hi Ryan,

Okay, as one says in Texas (I was born in Fort Worth and lived there 36 years), "Hold your horses!" Let me give the pointers. ;)

Colored Socks is a preface. As it says, "This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here."

Now that you have read through Colored Socks and understand you are to actually LOOK with your eyes, and report ONLY DIRECT EXPERIENCE (i.e. we do not care one bit about the "content of thought" or "story," that thoughts tell, which are also all lies, here is the next pointer.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. "Exactly" means "Exactly." Same word order. Same form of the verbs. Everything. Do this in at least 2 or 3 different settings and post a list Exactly Like the one above, please, for each one.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy

Okay, as one says in Texas (I was born in Fort Worth and lived there 36 years), "Hold your horses!" Let me give the pointers. ;)

slow claps in teacher appreciation

Ok, you have my attention. Thank you for your candor and honesty. I will do exactly as instructed and report back this afternoon/evening. Thank you.

Ryan

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. "Exactly" means "Exactly." Same word order. Same form of the verbs. Everything. Do this in at least 2 or 3 different settings and post a list Exactly Like the one above, please, for each one.

Tasting diet coke, simply = taste
Feeling the tingling of diet coke, simply = sensation
Hearing the fizziness of the diet coke, simply = sound

Hearing music as I'm mixing, simply = sound
Thoughts about what I'm hearing as I'm mixing, simply = thought
Feeling my computer mouse, simply = sensation
Seeing my DAW and cursor move across the screen, simply = color/image

Feeling myself choking on cereal, simply = sensation
Hearing myself choking on cereal, simply = sound

Looking around the living room, simply = color and images
Hearing the sound in the living room, simply = sound
Feeling standing in the living room, simply = sensation (hands on hips, feet on floor)

Seeing the oak tree in the yard, simply = shape, color
Feeling (touching) the oak tree in the yard, simply = sensation
Thought about the life of the oak and its scars, simply = thought

Seeing my record collection, simply = image
Hearing the music playing, simply = sound
Feeling my body at rest, simply = sensation

This has been interesting. I'll keep a list going and potentially update later, but I wanted to get you a response sooner than later.

Thank you,
Ryan

Good, Ryan.

There's no need to keep any lists going. The only point is to distinguish between Actual Direct Experience (right side) and thought, which is made up labels (left side).

Now this:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

~ Stacy

I am thinking about my messy desk
I am typing
I am hearing the keyboard
I am marveling that i can type
I am trying not to overthink this
I see a frisbee
I see a jar
I am reminded of my thirst
I am also feeling hungry
I am hearing my computer's fan whirring
I am still seeing my messy desk
I am waiting on a friend to come work at home with me
I am wondering if i'm doing this right
I am looking at the clock and remembering that i forgot to set a timer
I set a timer on my phone
I placed it on top of the mess
I am referring to the prompt
I am searching for the next experience
I am wondering if I'm doing my job well
I am recalling a conversation with a coworker earlier
I am considering that even though I doubt it I'm probably doing a good job
I am receiving a message from a coworker
I am deciding to ignore it for now
I am hearing a plane fly over
I am thinking about what it's like outside
I am waiting on my next experience
I am sitting with my ankles crossed
I am running out of things to say
I am hearing a high pitched sound
I am aware of my tinitus
I see a tye-dyed drink koozie
I am rereading my list
I am making the choice to stop rereading
I am seeing a blue cross on my insurance card
I am blinking
I am breathing
I am not moving my lower body
I am sitting rather stiffly
I am seeing a book



relaxing
sitting in a chair
typing
hearing sound
seeing mess
sseeing frisbee
seeing phone
seeing jar
seeing orange bottle
seeing thing my kid made
seeing blue butterfly
hearing quiet
closed eyes
seeing work computer
seeing wire cutters
feeling too "inside"
feeling light headed
feeling present
seeing lake background
moving foot
hearing can in trash
hearing spacebar
noticing it sounds different
feeling the difference
feeling relaxed
seeing guitar pick
seeing book
breathing
haering fan
seeing trees
seeing light
feeling arms
feeling anxiety
seeing metal hooks
seeing pictures
feeling lonely
resting
feeling back pain
feeling weight of arms
feeling contact of arms against body
seeing red light
seeing blue light
seeing ring
breathing

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

- not really. it seems i was more inclined to describe in more detail when using i, but they're equally valid.

2. What is here without labels?

- the experience. this.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

- describe only. cheapen even in some ways, but make describing objects and experiences convenient.

4. **Did you notice any differences in the body?**

- i felt more in tune with my body in the second round. posture, sensation, anxiety/tightness in my stomach. In the first, I was more "doing" than experiencing. i felt more relaxed physically and my posture shifted, before i was quite rigid. i was more aware of the feeling aspects of my body the second time, and i feel like i can't recall whether my body felt the same the first time.

Hi,

Okay, some correct, some need of more attention, etc.

Specific items from the second list for a little more accuracy (beyond the pointer's actual instructions, but good to take a look):

typing would be more accurate as "Sensing fingers touching keyboard"
closed eyes would be more accurate as "Seeing darkness"
moving foot would maybe be more accurate as "Sensing foot moving"

Anything that does not contain one of the Senses or "Thought Arising" could be more accurately described

breathing - what Direct Experience is actually Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelled, Tasted or does Thought Arise?
resting - what Direct Experience is actually Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelled, Tasted or does Thought Arise?

Let's look again at the first question:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
- not really. it seems i was more inclined to describe in more detail when using i, but they're equally valid.

Check your body, particularly your heart or solar plexus (gut) areas.

What is sensed when you read the first list with the lie of "I"?
What is sensed when you read the second list without the lie of "I" the non-existent "self?"

2. What is here without labels?
- the experience. this.

Yes, good.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
- describe only. cheapen even in some ways, but make describing objects and experiences convenient.

Good, yes. "Cheapen" well, maybe, but that, too, is only a thought story that is made up. Yes, labels are only for convenience. You'll notice that I write "I" in my sentences. I can write without that, but it is awkward and puts things in passive voice (my English teachers marked off for that here, but it IS more accurate).

4. **Did you notice any differences in the body?**
- i felt more in tune with my body in the second round. posture, sensation, anxiety/tightness in my stomach. In the first, I was more "doing" than experiencing. i felt more relaxed physically and my posture shifted, before i was quite rigid. i was more aware of the feeling aspects of my body the second time, and i feel like i can't recall whether my body felt the same the first time.

Goodness! That is a lot of words. Keep it VERY SIMPLE. Truth is SIMPLE.

Yes, there is tension when we lie and relaxation in the presence of truth. SIMPLE.


Noticing body Sensations is important. It is a mystery how or why this is, but Sensations can indicate truth or lies.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
[/b]
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?


If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

The Sun rises in the West is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that relaxed Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I."

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?


Loving,

~ Stacy