The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is a reality - or better say truth - I haven't understood yet.

What are you looking for at LU? Some guidance towards understanding. To be able to get closer to this deep mystery about how we perceive all the events happening in our daily life. How is decision making done? How can we live our life without understandig ourselves?

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect to become more clear about the answers to my questions. I would appreciate to have someone who is answering my questions.... who is patient and can understand how stuck a seeker can be, especially as I am a seeker for many years.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Several years of practicing Zen meditation. I went through books, articels, videos from Ken Wilber, Byron Katie, Tony Parsons, David Carse, Claudia Filkov, Göran Backlund, Angelo di Lullo and many more.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Good evening

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to be followed during this dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Come here at least once a day (don't wait expressly for emails, sometimes it does not work)
Leave aside all books, audios, videos about spirituality
Be honest with yourself when giving answers to my questions : the answer must be given from direct experience not from memory nor from what you read or heard. Direct experience is the clue : looking at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations)

Best for you

Warissem

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

Thank you Warissem.

Hi

I want to know where are you at about this stuff. You have read a lot of books and you have done meditation. At the very moment of meditation, look carefully and tell me : what is doing meditation ?

Thank you

Warissem

what is doing meditation ?

Hi Warissem,

Meditation did a lot to me. But not in the sense that people usually tell. I lost weight and I started to refrain completely from alcohol (though I never was addicted). I got so clear about what was good for me and what was not. It was not an intellectual understanding. I just knew. There was no longing anymore. It was in a sense some kind of 'material' clarity.

My thoughts remained like a roundabout. Rethinking, expectations, judgements were always on my mind and still are. I want to know who I am. I am longing for clarity. So to say 'immaterial' clarity.
There is something that is drawing me in this direction. Like the food addict might be longing for emptying the fridge at night I am longing for finding the truth but get the impression as being locked out (like the fridge would be locked for the food addict).

This makes me rebellious. I just can't get the feeling of non doership.

On the other side I can't stay away from everything written and told about nonduality. There must be something.....even if it turns out that there is nothing (which seems the essence to me).

It is difficult to find words for this kind of longing.

Best regards
Hel

Good evening Hel

Meditation did a lot to me. But not in the sense that people usually tell. I lost weight and I started to refrain completely from alcohol (though I never was addicted). I got so clear about what was good for me and what was not. It was not an intellectual understanding. I just knew. There was no longing anymore. It was in a sense some kind of 'material' clarity.

Glad to hear this.

My thoughts remained like a roundabout. Rethinking, expectations, judgements were always on my mind and still are.

Thoughts are coming and going, expectations, judgements are also thoughts : do you see that ?

I want to know who I am. I am longing for clarity. So to say 'immaterial' clarity.

What you are is That which is reading these words, so simple.

There is something that is drawing me in this direction. Like the food addict might be longing for emptying the fridge at night I am longing for finding the truth but get the impression as being locked out (like the fridge would be locked for the food addict).

Great, a burning desire for truth is a half of the job which is done. There is nothing locked out, seeing is happening, hearing is happening and you are aware of all the happenings, aren’t you ?

This makes me rebellious. I just can't get the feeling of non doership.

This will come during this dialog.

On the other side I can't stay away from everything written and told about nonduality. There must be something.....even if it turns out that there is nothing (which seems the essence to me).

Truth is not in the mind nor in the books. Give a full faith to what is going here in this forum.

It is difficult to find words for this kind of longing.

Great.

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi Warissem,

thank you for your immediate answer.

Thoughts are coming and going, expectations, judgements are also thoughts : do you see that?

Yes, but they repeat themselves and they are often representing common knowledge which makes it difficult to label them as mere thoughts. They somehow constitute my reality. They represent past (for example regret or missing something from the past), present (how to act now) and future (what will be the outcome of my actions). My "outside reality " seems to force me into this kind of thinking and I am sure other people would think the same way if they were me. Why are thoughts the most stressful sensation we have? They make everything better or worse depending on their quality of thinking.

Great, a burning desire for truth is a half of the job which is done. There is nothing locked out, seeing is happening, hearing is happening and you are aware of all the happenings, aren’t you ?

Yes. Nothing is locked out and I am aware of my thoughts. But I am also aware that these thoughts and all hearing, seeing and feeling results in a person. Especially the thoughts - not necessarily the body. The body is functioning on itself that's easy to realize. But thoughts have an address.

Truth is not in the mind nor in the books. Give a full faith to what is going here in this forum.

....it is not in the mind..
I can feel this somehow. But I am angry because the mind and my thoughts seem so obvious for me. They define my day, my responsibilities, my past, my presence, my future.
How can I not care about them? Which is of course the next thought. It's really difficult (okay, this again is a thought).

Best whises

The questioning Hel

Good afternoon

As you are speaking about thoughts, I invite you to do this exercise :

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Give answer to each question separately.

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi,

Where are they coming from and going to?

I don't know where they are coming from and going to.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. I tried but it was then just another thought.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. It would have been just another thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No I can't.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No. I would like to, but I can't.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No. Thoughts are just there no matter if I like them.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No. Trying to influence my thoughts ends in new thoughts.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, not at all.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Even if I try to prevent a thought it is just another thought. When I tell myself to think something else, it's a thought.
When I tell myself not to think this thought, this inside telling is again a thought.

All these thoughts relate to me. It doesn't matter if I refuse them or if I want other thoughts. But they remain thoughts, wanted or not wanted.

Best wishes

Hel

Hi Hel

Good observations. Now, I want to be sure that you are familiar with "looking at direct experience".
Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). Thoughts are known but we use them to communicate only.

Example : what is the color of the sky right now ? There are two ways of giving an answer : 1) Guess the answer from the memory of a moment ago when you were out OR 2) Open the window and look at the sky : this is direct experience.

Take an apple or a piece of water melon or another fruit and give answers to these questions through direct experience :

What is seen ? do you see an apple or colors ?
Take the fruit in your hands : is there an apple or only sensations ?

Best wishes

Warissem

Hi Warissem,

What is seen ?

My spontaneous answer would be: I see an apple in my hand.

do you see an apple or colors ?

Difficult to say. Spontaneously I would say an apple. Being aware that the questions comes from you I started to think my first reaction over. Honestly I have to admit that nobody sees colors (biophysically spoken). It is an interpretation of waves.
Okay, and I further have to admit that this interpretation is a thought. But spontaneously it is an apple for me.

Is there an apple or only sensations ?

There is an apple but there are also sensations. I feel the weight of the apple in my hand.

Dear Warissem, is there a past? I of course learned that this thing in my hand is an apple. How can I unlearn that? That would be a future. Or am I completely wrong?

Best whises

Hel

Hi Hel

Yes there is memory and there is an automatic labeling of what is seen, heard, tasted, smelt, felt, etc, ...

Now do the same exercise with eyes closed then give answers to the same questions : do you notice differences ? Please give your comments on this.

Warissem

do you notice differences ?

Yes. There are no sensations. No weight in my hand.
I am somehow "thinking a picture".
I can somehow see a picture of an apple in my mind.
But it is pure imagination.

Best whises
Hel

Good afternoon

Yes. There are no sensations. No weight in my hand.

Sense of touch is not related to the sense of sight : then how can you say “there are no sensations”. When eyes are closed, when something is in your hands, there are sensations : do the experience and confirm for yourself.

I am somehow "thinking a picture".
I can somehow see a picture of an apple in my mind.
But it is pure imagination.

Yes. I invite you to do this exercise about sensations.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best wishes

Warissem

Good afternoon,

ups...I am sorry.

Sense of touch is not related to the sense of sight : then how can you say “there are no sensations”. When eyes are closed, when something is in your hands, there are sensations : do the experience and confirm for yourself.

There was a misunderstanding from my side. I concentrated on closing the eyes and didn't realize that you meant I should also keep the apple in my hand. I did the exercise without an apple in my hand. This was my mistake. I am really sorry. So I will repeat this and tell you together with answering the other questions. I hope this is okay for you.

Best wishes
Hel