The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By this I understand that while thoughts, feelings, objects, beings are all real, the "self" that attaches to or claims ownership of these, the voice in the head, the mental chatter and stories and memories, is just an assumed concept rather than a real entity.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm stuck in a place that seems to be quite common - relentlessly seeking while being sure I've already seen all the answers. I have read/watched/listened to many teachers and at an intellectual/conceptual level I totally "get" the principle of no-self, but it's not a felt experience. I am still bothered by intrusive thoughts, mental dialogue, suffering - it's like I get lost in my head sometimes. When I'm fully engaged in an activity I am mostly able to remain as such, but it's like there's a part of me that is constantly seeking for some kind of distraction. When I don't have an immediate task at hand, I find myself going back over the same teachings and forums as if some words there are going to fix my problems.

What I am looking for is to not just believe and understand non-duality, but to actually FEEL and KNOW it. I want some respite from the noise in my head, I want to stop seeking, I want to stop going round the loop of spiritual content trying to "get it" or attain some kind of "enlightenment". No matter how often I read this, in my head I think I still conceptualise realisation/liberation as some kind of amazing state. I get confused when I see it described as not so, because it's often followed with a description of old patterns falling away, suffering decreasing etc.. and that sounds pretty damn amazing to me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping that by interacting directly with someone who has clearly seen that there is no-self, I can get past the perceived barriers that I'm sure I'm putting in my own way with my analysing and intellectualising of the whole thing. I read the "Gateless Gatecrashers" book and several of the accounts in there sound like they come from exactly my kind of starting position - but somehow just reading other people's accounts doesn't seem to have the effect on me that it clearly has on them.

I probably have some unrealistic expectations left over and I'm very happy to be called out on my bullshit, I suppose I just hope that a direct interaction will help me in a way that watching/reading/listening to teachers and the experiences of others hasn't.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 15 years of on-off meditation practice, after some psychedelic experiences in my early 20s. I flitted between techniques such as mindfulness, choiceless awareness, silence, binaurals, I read, I listened, I watched, etc.. I had the occasional experience of deep relaxation but fundamentally whenever the meditation stopped, the noise in the head came back, the suffering and habits returned.

For the last few months I've been heavily focussed on non-duality, and the desire to meditate has fallen away. It started when listening to a conversation with Rupert Spira - he described "your essential nature is happiness that is veiled" and something physically seemed to "click" with that. I've since explored the teachings of Spira, Sailor Bob, John Wheeler, Angelo Dillulo, as well as more science-based figures like Bernado Kastrup. All of them have said things that feel true, sometimes I even have brief moments of "feeling like I get it" - but otherwise, when I'm not actively consuming the teachings I just go back to my spiralling thoughts. Then I start to judge myself, why haven't I got it yet, what is the thing I need to do to get to what these teachers describe. I know all this is wrong, but I don't know how to correct it.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi Dudeabidin,

Enjoyed reading your answers.
Acknowledging your need for direct conversation and to 'get it' experientially, to bring a calming of the striving/seeking.
Very happy to point you towards the 'gateless gate'?
Sounds like there's readiness and resolve.

I request three things:
1) Your willingness to be honest and courageous in your answering, which you sound like you are.
2) Your focus and commitment to the questioning, despite any discomfort that may arise.
3) Your commitment to keep the momentum going in this exchange and answer within 48 hours of my posting.

I aim to respond within 24 hours of your post, but if circumstances dictate it can be up to 48 hours.

Happy to help.

How should I address you?

Love.

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thank you for your response, I'm very grateful. Yes, I'd be very glad of your help, and I agree happily to your three requests. You can call me Paddy.

Since making my initial post I've been reading a lot of the threads on here and looking at some of the exercises, and I also had a brief conversation with a teacher, and it seems that some of the relentless seeking has diminished, but I'm still not certain that I am fully "through the gate" as it were. While I'm no longer spending as much time consuming non-duality content and striving as much for some kind of "awakening", I still find myself comparing my experiences to those of others and finding it hard to let go of the belief that there's a deeper, or more stable understanding of this to be found. I suppose this is the false self still clinging on for dear life and trying to control things that it never did!

I would very much welcome a conversation and to see where it leads.

Best
Paddy

Hi Paddy,

Pleasure to meet you.

Know that even if I don't address everything you write, it has been seen and will inform how this process unfolds.

Happy to be here.

Let's get the ball rolling.

You mention the compulsion to seek out teachings has slowed down.

To address this point, the invitation here is to realise through your own experience (as you've identified).

So as we lean together into the mystery of this unfolding, the invitation is to bring a focus and avoid any unnecessary distractions, basically to stay intimately with your own experience, get really curious. Love orchestrates this. It's so wonderful.

Please read these (links below) so that we're on the same page.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

We will start with the core belief and identify if there are any expectations here.

Absorb the questions and let them marinate.

I invite you to write your answers from your direct experience, even if there is spiralling thoughts, what are they? pay attention to your emotional experience, what you feel in your body, how your breathing patterns changes or anything else that comes up for you.

Is there a self at all in reality?
What will you lose when this is realised?
What do you want from awakening?
What do you not want it to be?
How will you and your life change?

Hi Marcus,

Good to hear from you. My gratitude to you again for helping me here.

Please read these (links below) so that we're on the same page.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Read and understood, thank you :)

I've tried to answer these questions as much from direct experience as possible. That being said, some of these seem impossible to answer non-intellectually - they all seem to invite thoughts and don't have answers within the senses, so I've written a little of the content of those thoughts too. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding the intent or if the answers aren't what you're looking for.

Is there a self at all in reality?

In direct experience, no. This much is clear. There is a body with its associated feelings and sensations, there is a mind that produces the thoughts/concepts. Within the mind there is a strong concept of a self - but I know it's a concept. It manifests most strongly as an internal voice that seems to spend a lot of its time taking the content of the present and trying to project it into the future or refer back to the past. Thinking about what "I" am going to say, going to do, how to be seen the way I want to be seen, what I may have done wrong in the past, etc. It dominates my attention, to the point that I really have to focus on bodily sensations/feelings as you've asked to be able to answer that part of the question. The predominant feeling while typing this answer is a tensing in the lower gut - my mind tries to label this as fear, uncertainty or anticipation but I'm really not sure what (if anything) it actually means.

What will you lose when this is realised?

I struggle to find an answer to this anywhere but the mind. I can't see/hear/touch etc any future event. I suppose I don't think I can really lose anything if there wasn't anything to lose in the first place, right? If there is something to be lost it would be the identification with that "self" concept. The thoughts, feelings, the inner voice won't be lost but the identification with it goes. Optimistically, perhaps the suffering and the enormous effort that seems to go into trying to control my life might be lost. Still getting that anxious/fearful stomach feeling while answering this question. Breathing is very shallow, but that's quite normal for me.

What do you want from awakening?

Ha. Difficult question. Again, hard to answer from direct experience - the only thing that wants anything is that inner voice in my head. My senses are perfectly happy as they are. They may be experiencing tiredness, pain etc but it's only the mind that wants those things to be different, for instance.
And a lot of the things my "illusory self" wants, I don't think it's going to get - quite a few of them would be on that "Liberation Unleashed is NOT" list.
But what does the mind want from awakening? Obviously it wants to be happy, to be at peace with itself. It wants to feel good and not feel bad. To not suffer, to not feel this wretched gut feeling of unsettledness/fearfulness. It wants to be able to handle whatever the outside world throws at it and not get lost in circular thinking, constantly trying to work out what's going to be said next. Honestly this character in my head just wants to be a happy chilled zen-like dude who never gets bothered by anything. It wants to be free of any problematic or addictive behaviour. But it also knows that isn't what it's going to get, which brings feelings of uncertainty and conflict about what I'm even doing here. Honestly, at this point I don't necessarily care about "what I want", I just want to see "what I get" (or perhaps "what there is") without the identification with a self.
Actually felt quite relaxing to be honest about my egoic desires there. The tension in the stomach eased a little.

While I don't think that what my mind really wants is the realistic aim, I do find it harder not to want what I see others in these threads and other forums expressing - a deeper sense of peace and happiness, a moment of realisation where the illusions fall away, a final end to the seeking.

What do you not want it to be?

Not a question I'd ever really considered before. Again, no answer really in direct experience through the senses, only thoughts. I don't want it to be something that changes the person that my wife loves. I don't want it to be something that doesn't help me. I don't want it to stop my enjoyment of the things I enjoy.
I think there is some fear of a loss of control over my behaviours - I've had on/off issues with overindulgence particularly with food and alcohol, which I have been able to control by exerting willpower. I worry that if I "take my hand off the wheel", I'll just get fat and drunk and fail my family and friends. Outside of these types of behaviours, I think I've always been put a lot of effort into trying to make my personality something that is desireable or likeable to those around me. I behave completely differently with different groups of people. Sometimes, to be honest, I don't even know what my real personality is.
I'd also say there's some fear related to repressed emotions or traumas. I tend to be very conflict-averse and hate arguments, so I do a lot of burying of frustrations or annoyances in order to try and keep my external world more peaceful. I try (but often fail) to avoid revisiting traumatic or uncomfortable memories from my past.

Sorry, rambling a bit here.

How will you and your life change?

Honestly, at this point I don't know. I've read many accounts but I find it hard to imagine that really happening for me. I think life probably goes on just the way it does, but I'll save a lot of energy by not trying to control it and organise it and plan for the future. If there isn't really a me, how can it change, I guess.

Again, I apologise if these answers aren't what I'm meant to be coming up with, I'll happily revisit if so.

Paddy,

Thanks for your responses.

I've tried to answer these questions as much from direct experience as possible. That being said, some of these seem impossible to answer non-intellectually - they all seem to invite thoughts and don't have answers within the senses, so I've written a little of the content of those thoughts too. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding the intent or if the answers aren't what you're looking for.

Thanks for addressing this, the way you define the direct experience and its relationship to thought and its contents is clear and defined.

Is there a self at all in reality?
In direct experience, no. This much is clear. There is a body with its associated feelings and sensations, there is a mind that produces the thoughts/concepts. Within the mind there is a strong concept of a self - but I know it's a concept. It manifests most strongly as an internal voice that seems to spend a lot of its time taking the content of the present and trying to project it into the future or refer back to the past. Thinking about what "I" am going to say, going to do, how to be seen the way I want to be seen, what I may have done wrong in the past, etc. It dominates my attention, to the point that I really have to focus on bodily sensations/feelings as you've asked to be able to answer that part of the question. The predominant feeling while typing this answer is a tensing in the lower gut - my mind tries to label this as fear, uncertainty or anticipation but I'm really not sure what (if anything) it actually means.

Again appreciate the way you write into this, it’s clear and lucid and great awareness on the subtle strings that are seemingly being pulled and how it can so dominate attention, especially if we’re not aware that it isn’t necessarily all that based in reality. How could this not cause a knotted stomach if it is believed. Very stressful way of existing lol.

What will you lose when this is realised?
I struggle to find an answer to this anywhere but the mind. I can't see/hear/touch etc any future event. I suppose I don't think I can really lose anything if there wasn't anything to lose in the first place, right? If there is something to be lost it would be the identification with that "self" concept. The thoughts, feelings, the inner voice won't be lost but the identification with it goes. Optimistically, perhaps the suffering and the enormous effort that seems to go into trying to control my life might be lost. Still getting that anxious/fearful stomach feeling while answering this question. Breathing is very shallow, but that's quite normal for me.

Thank you for speaking into the somatics. Sounds like wouldn’t be huge loss then? Sounds like a good deal lol.

What do you want from awakening?
Ha. Difficult question. Again, hard to answer from direct experience - the only thing that wants anything is that inner voice in my head. My senses are perfectly happy as they are. They may be experiencing tiredness, pain etc but it's only the mind that wants those things to be different, for instance.
And a lot of the things my "illusory self" wants, I don't think it's going to get - quite a few of them would be on that "Liberation Unleashed is NOT" list.
But what does the mind want from awakening? Obviously it wants to be happy, to be at peace with itself. It wants to feel good and not feel bad. To not suffer, to not feel this wretched gut feeling of unsettledness/fearfulness. It wants to be able to handle whatever the outside world throws at it and not get lost in circular thinking, constantly trying to work out what's going to be said next. Honestly this character in my head just wants to be a happy chilled zen-like dude who never gets bothered by anything. It wants to be free of any problematic or addictive behaviour. But it also knows that isn't what it's going to get, which brings feelings of uncertainty and conflict about what I'm even doing here. Honestly, at this point I don't necessarily care about "what I want", I just want to see "what I get" (or perhaps "what there is") without the identification with a self.
Actually felt quite relaxing to be honest about my egoic desires there. The tension in the stomach eased a little.

Honestly, at this point I don't necessarily care about "what I want", I just want to see "what I get" (or perhaps "what there is") Haha, brilliant! Sounds very chilled. Lol.

While I don't think that what my mind really wants is the realistic aim, I do find it harder not to want what I see others in these threads and other forums expressing - a deeper sense of peace and happiness, a moment of realisation where the illusions fall away, a final end to the seeking.

Let’s keep walking.

What do you not want it to be?
Not a question I'd ever really considered before. Again, no answer really in direct experience through the senses, only thoughts. I don't want it to be something that changes the person that my wife loves. I don't want it to be something that doesn't help me. I don't want it to stop my enjoyment of the things I enjoy.
I think there is some fear of a loss of control over my behaviours - I've had on/off issues with overindulgence particularly with food and alcohol, which I have been able to control by exerting willpower. I worry that if I "take my hand off the wheel", I'll just get fat and drunk and fail my family and friends. Outside of these types of behaviours, I think I've always been put a lot of effort into trying to make my personality something that is desireable or likeable to those around me. I behave completely differently with different groups of people. Sometimes, to be honest, I don't even know what my real personality is.
I'd also say there's some fear related to repressed emotions or traumas. I tend to be very conflict-averse and hate arguments, so I do a lot of burying of frustrations or annoyances in order to try and keep my external world more peaceful. I try (but often fail) to avoid revisiting traumatic or uncomfortable memories from my past.

It's beautiful to read your awareness about how these subtle forces influence your behaviour and thoughts patterns. Very perceptive and delightful to read. [/quote]
It's beautiful to read your awareness about how these subtle forces influence your behaviour and thoughts patterns. Very perceptive. Can you trust life to give you what it gives you? Can you allow conflict? emotions? drama? Life's beautiful simple chaos in all its boundless colour?

[/b]

Sorry, rambling a bit here.
How will you and your life change?
Honestly, at this point I don't know. I've read many accounts but I find it hard to imagine that really happening for me. I think life probably goes on just the way it does, but I'll save a lot of energy by not trying to control it and organise it and plan for the future. If there isn't really a me, how can it change, I guess.

It sounds so gloriously disappointing.

Your awareness of the matter at hand is quite established. It doesn't feel recycled and feels like the result of seeing.
I'm really curious if we can bring a little more awareness to the feeling in the body, the knotted stomach, the shallow breathing, not with the intention to prod, but just to respect it and listen, does it have anything more to contribute here?
If not just keep me informed with any somatics/emotions that come up, feel to add any specific pointers that trigger the fear, if it feels relevant?
Keen to hear if anything has shifted.

After your update we can see what's next.

Hi Marcus,

Good to hear from you again. I'm glad you found the responses helpful, I wasn't sure if I'd veered too far off the "direct experience" path.

the way you define the direct experience and its relationship to thought and its contents is clear and defined.

I do certainly feel clear on this - and yet, I still seem to spend a lot more time paying attention to the thoughts and listening to that inner narrator than I do focussing on the contents of direct experience. Yoda would berate me for "never his mind on where he was - what he was doing". I do realise that the purpose of this "path to the gate" isn't to stop the thoughts, but it still seems like they have a lot of pull. It's just that now there's usually a little extra thinking at the end where the mind tries to be a nondual teacher. "Oh, you got distracted. But who got distracted? You're just a thought, so you're not doing anything, so why are you caught up in a thought - who is caught up in the thought? Who says getting caught up in thoughts is bad anyway, who's making the judgement, oh that's just a thought" blah blah blah. Maybe that's just something that has to be tolerated and may go away in time? The idea of thoughts becoming less "sticky" seems to come up a lot from people who've been before me.

... great awareness on the subtle strings that are seemingly being pulled and how it can so dominate attention, especially if we’re not aware that it isn’t necessarily all that based in reality. How could this not cause a knotted stomach if it is believed. Very stressful way of existing lol.

Tell me about it. And without rehashing my last comment, it clearly seems to cause some stress even when I *am* aware that it isn't all that based in reality. Which seems crazy to write.

Sounds like wouldn’t be huge loss then? Sounds like a good deal lol.

Sounds like an absolutely fine deal to me!

It's beautiful to read your awareness about how these subtle forces influence your behaviour and thoughts patterns. Very perceptive. Can you trust life to give you what it gives you? Can you allow conflict? emotions? drama? Life's beautiful simple chaos in all its boundless colour?

I suppose the best answer that comes up here is - it feels like life will give me what it gives me whether I trust it or not. But there is a very strong instinct to try and take that input and do something to turn it into the best possible output. For all that I know of how the self is a concept and control is a wooly concept at best, there is still the feeling that I need to plan and prepare my words and actions to try and influence a future outcome or protect myself from having experiences I judge to be negative.

It sounds so gloriously disappointing.

I think I had a review like this for an album of mine once.. haha.

Your awareness of the matter at hand is quite established. It doesn't feel recycled and feels like the result of seeing.

This is good to hear. Full disclosure, when I first read that the little ego-voice had a micro-moment of congratulating itself for being such an enlightened person. Ridiculous, I know.

I'm really curious if we can bring a little more awareness to the feeling in the body, the knotted stomach, the shallow breathing, not with the intention to prod, but just to respect it and listen, does it have anything more to contribute here?

Fortunately (if that's the word for it) I've had a few opportunities to observe that knotted feeling today and some of the things that cause it (or the things that arise at the same time as it - I'm never quite sure if the thoughts or the feelings come first).
Trying to look at the feeling in the various times it arises, looking at it without the thought - it's very clear that it isn't a single feeling caused by a single emotion or trigger, if that makes sense. Every time it's felt, the intensity may vary but the fundamental quality of the feeling is exactly the same. That sort of tensing, almost cold, clenched ball of something in the stomach. And yet in terms of the thoughts there's never any lack of doubt about what I associate the feeling with. Makes me wonder how - or if - I know.
Anticipation of the future, both things that I am looking forward to and dreading, both seem to have this feeling associated with them. For instance, my baby daughter is currently having big problems with her sleep, she's spent the last few nights barely sleeping at all and crying on and off the entire night, while standing up in her crib seemingly refusing to lie back down. Thoughts of another night of this, and the associated dread, definitely have that feeling attached. But, I also notice that feeling when checking for updates for this thread, and I can assure you I'm not dreading our interaction - quite the opposite.
It also seems to come up when my mind is engaged in its favourite pastime of "running scenarios" - projecting entirely hypothetical futures and anticipating who might say what to me, and what I might say to them in return. This seems to come up a lot with work (eg things I think my boss might ask me to do that I don't want to do) - and relationships (eg things I could say to my wife to stop her doing something that's annoyed me or that I disagree with).

Shallow breathing on the other hand seems to be my default mode. I used to notice when I meditated it became even more so. Deeper breathing seems to mostly only happen as an intentional thing when I'm trying to focus or let go of a thought or emotion.

If not just keep me informed with any somatics/emotions that come up, feel to add any specific pointers that trigger the fear, if it feels relevant?

Interesting. The pointers don't seem to immediately trigger the feeling of fear/anticipation/whatever it is until I think about their implications. It's a bit paradoxical. For instance, if I read a pointer that looks at cause and effect, how much more complex it is than our supposed linear progression, how silly it is to try and control the uncontrollable - the immediate reaction tends to be one of relaxation, "thank goodness, I don't have to worry about that any more", then the fearful feeling comes up as the mind starts to object and say "ah, but if you don't try and control anything then how are you going to (insert any desired outcome here)".

Keen to hear if anything has shifted.

I'm really not sure. I'll keep checking. "Shift" is one of those terms I hear and can't immediately recognise a definition of. There's still a lot of getting tied up in futures and thinking here, and definitely lots of mind stuff coming out as I write my answers - though perhaps the fact it's been a stressful few days is skewing things. I'm curious, if I'm able to ask you a question in return - what is the experience of a stressful day like for someone who's "passed through the gate". Do you just see the stress and not get attached to it? Do you still feel like shit but take some comfort in an instinctive belief that it'll go away later? Do you just not feel the stress as heavily?

Thanks again for your engagement with this conversation Marcus. I hope my answers are of some help.

Best
Paddy

Hi Marcus,

Good to hear from you again. I'm glad you found the responses helpful, I wasn't sure if I'd veered too far off the "direct experience" path.

Feels lucid from my side.

I do certainly feel clear on this - and yet, I still seem to spend a lot more time paying attention to the thoughts and listening to that inner narrator than I do focussing on the contents of direct experience. Yoda would berate me for "never his mind on where he was - what he was doing". I do realise that the purpose of this "path to the gate" isn't to stop the thoughts, but it still seems like they have a lot of pull. It's just that now there's usually a little extra thinking at the end where the mind tries to be a nondual teacher. "Oh, you got distracted. But who got distracted? You're just a thought, so you're not doing anything, so why are you caught up in a thought - who is caught up in the thought? Who says getting caught up in thoughts is bad anyway, who's making the judgement, oh that's just a thought" blah blah blah. Maybe that's just something that has to be tolerated and may go away in time? The idea of thoughts becoming less "sticky" seems to come up a lot from people who've been before me.

Yoda gets it lol. Hahaha non-dual thoughts are the best! Yours sound very entertaining!

If I look into my experience or history with those thoughts, I can remark that they are just less interesting than 'before', before they were like possible truth-bombs and I’ve learned that they aren’t all that true, so they hit the bullshit radar pretty quickly if and when they do come up.

Some thoughts however are genius and full of insight and by no means am I walking around all day in radiant no-mind. The recognition of changes/shifts can also be noticed in my reflections with other people who are very much invested in and animated by the belief in the content of their thoughts. Philosophising is also less fun than it once was, unless it’s the kind of philosophising that is truly in touch in oneness, which in some way all of it is and around the paradox train we go again.

And yes, I don’t like to get into theory so much or make predictions about what might happen but it makes sense that as ‘the field of awareness’ frees and opens into itself, there is typically more balance and freedom in what is being experienced.

Tell me about it. And without rehashing my last comment, it clearly seems to cause some stress even when I *am* aware that it isn't all that based in reality. Which seems crazy to write.
Sounds like wouldn’t be huge loss then? Sounds like a good deal lol.
Sounds like an absolutely fine deal to me!

It’s a deal then. Let’s fall.

I suppose the best answer that comes up here is - it feels like life will give me what it gives me whether I trust it or not. But there is a very strong instinct to try and take that input and do something to turn it into the best possible output. For all that I know of how the self is a concept and control is a wooly concept at best, there is still the feeling that I need to plan and prepare my words and actions to try and influence a future outcome or protect myself from having experiences I judge to be negative.

A question that you don't have to answer but one that has helped me with fears... what would be the worst outcome imaginable? Is it possible to find peace/freedom in that eventuality?

I think I had a review like this for an album of mine once.. haha.

Hahahaha hilarious. I’m sorry for your loss… of kudos.

This is good to hear. Full disclosure, when I first read that the little ego-voice had a micro-moment of congratulating itself for being such an enlightened person. Ridiculous, I know.

Bowing in deep half-sincere reverence to your enlightened person thought thing.

Fortunately (if that's the word for it) I've had a few opportunities to observe that knotted feeling today and some of the things that cause it (or the things that arise at the same time as it - I'm never quite sure if the thoughts or the feelings come first).
Trying to look at the feeling in the various times it arises, looking at it without the thought - it's very clear that it isn't a single feeling caused by a single emotion or trigger, if that makes sense. Every time it's felt, the intensity may vary but the fundamental quality of the feeling is exactly the same. That sort of tensing, almost cold, clenched ball of something in the stomach. And yet in terms of the thoughts there's never any lack of doubt about what I associate the feeling with. Makes me wonder how - or if - I know.
Anticipation of the future, both things that I am looking forward to and dreading, both seem to have this feeling associated with them. For instance, my baby daughter is currently having big problems with her sleep, she's spent the last few nights barely sleeping at all and crying on and off the entire night, while standing up in her crib seemingly refusing to lie back down. Thoughts of another night of this, and the associated dread, definitely have that feeling attached. But, I also notice that feeling when checking for updates for this thread, and I can assure you I'm not dreading our interaction - quite the opposite.
It also seems to come up when my mind is engaged in its favourite pastime of "running scenarios" - projecting entirely hypothetical futures and anticipating who might say what to me, and what I might say to them in return. This seems to come up a lot with work (eg things I think my boss might ask me to do that I don't want to do) - and relationships (eg things I could say to my wife to stop her doing something that's annoyed me or that I disagree with).

I very much relate to this experience, I can share something here as it’s relevant, I was going through the gate a very similar thing was happening for me, knotting and resistance coming up as it always had done. I had a deep abdominal massage and that night I had a dream where I literally fell through all of my existential type fears and trauma type holding/curling energy into eternity. It was quite profound.

Shallow breathing on the other hand seems to be my default mode. I used to notice when I meditated it became even more so. Deeper breathing seems to mostly only happen as an intentional thing when I'm trying to focus or let go of a thought or emotion.

The body can hold a lot of tension huh? It’s not what we’re pointing at or indeed vital but I wonder if you have any body-based practice, it can be ‘supportive’ in the energetic movements as you’re probably aware.

If not just keep me informed with any somatics/emotions that come up, feel to add any specific pointers that trigger the fear, if it feels relevant?
Interesting. The pointers don't seem to immediately trigger the feeling of fear/anticipation/whatever it is until I think about their implications. It's a bit paradoxical. For instance, if I read a pointer that looks at cause and effect, how much more complex it is than our supposed linear progression, how silly it is to try and control the uncontrollable - the immediate reaction tends to be one of relaxation, "thank goodness, I don't have to worry about that any more", then the fearful feeling comes up as the mind starts to object and say "ah, but if you don't try and control anything then how are you going to (insert any desired outcome here)".

Yes well identified, I know this one.

Keen to hear if anything has shifted.
I'm really not sure. I'll keep checking. "Shift" is one of those terms I hear and can't immediately recognise a definition of. There's still a lot of getting tied up in futures and thinking here, and definitely lots of mind stuff coming out as I write my answers - though perhaps the fact it's been a stressful few days is skewing things. I'm curious, if I'm able to ask you a question in return - what is the experience of a stressful day like for someone who's "passed through the gate". Do you just see the stress and not get attached to it? Do you still feel like shit but take some comfort in an instinctive belief that it'll go away later? Do you just not feel the stress as heavily?

Stress, yes it comes up but it doesn’t feel as serious as it used to. As if before it felt threatening somehow. Threatening to someone perhaps. Maybe there’s also something about being more true to what is being experienced. If I’m feeling the beginnings of stress, so if I’m coming towards the end of my time with someone or there's tiredness, or if there are plans that now feel too burdensome, or if there's feelings of being unsupported or under-nourished there a deeper willingness to be true to that compass of being human and knowing the limitations of and being aware of and signals and wisdom in the body. Of course when you’re with a baby it’s a whole other thing and I cannot speak from experience unfortunately. Baby daughter. How beautiful!

Let’s bring awareness to the nature of thought.
Who are these thoughts being generated on behalf of? Are they based in reality?
Where are these thoughts coming from?
And please feel free to reveal any additional insights about what is happening here.

Thank you Paddy

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thanks again for your response, hope you're having a wonderful day.

Hahaha non-dual thoughts are the best! Yours sound very entertaining!

If I look into my experience or history with those thoughts, I can remark that they are just less interesting than 'before', before they were like possible truth-bombs and I’ve learned that they aren’t all that true, so they hit the bullshit radar pretty quickly if and when they do come up.

Interesting. Now that you mention it, I think this may already be happening for me to some extent. Those thoughts still come but.. it's a little hard to put into words, but before, those thoughts would go around in a loop for a while and there would be this distinct sense of not knowing what the answer was, more time was being given to analysing those thoughts to try and reach a conclusion. Now they go around the loop a bit and then I lose interest and get on with something else. I don't really provide an answer to the thought, but rather there's a sense of knowing that there isn't an answer and any answer that I come up with in the mind is going to be as bullshit as the question.

Some thoughts however are genius and full of insight and by no means am I walking around all day in radiant no-mind.

Radiant no-mind sounds lovely, but I guess having it all the time would make one a rather boring character.

The recognition of changes/shifts can also be noticed in my reflections with other people who are very much invested in and animated by the belief in the content of their thoughts. Philosophising is also less fun than it once was, unless it’s the kind of philosophising that is truly in touch in oneness, which in some way all of it is and around the paradox train we go again.

See again, this is interesting, because it seems to chime with something I've noticed recently. I've always been someone who people come to for advice, particularly around relationship problems, struggles with depression, that kind of thing. I'm not sure why, other than that I always try to help people and I can be a good problem-solver. Just recently a very dear friend of mine has gone through a rather nasty breakup and huge life turmoil and has been coming to me to advice. I'm still just as interested in helping, and I still try and provide possible solutions to practical problems when they're presented, but I find that the way I'm considering my responses or focussing on the problem is different. Again, hard to explain, but there's a sense that the underlying cause of the suffering isn't just the immediate problem, or something that reassurance will really help, more that the person is so caught up in thoughts and attachment to thoughts that I really just want to tell them that fixing the immediate problem isn't going to fix the associated suffering. I stop short of trying to steer them into a conversation about non-duality because I don't feel particularly qualified to give that kind of advice, and I notice myself having a concern that I'll just be perceived as spouting off some incomprehensible hippy gibberish that won't really help them. But I do find my advice leaning a lot more towards "let things be as they are, don't try and push away negative feelings, don't judge yourself for having negative feelings" rather than trying to invalidate the suffering by just telling them everything's going to be OK and trying to make them feel better. Not sure if that points to any realisation my end or if I've just watched too many Spira videos.. but it just feels instinctively a truer way to answer.

And yes, I don’t like to get into theory so much or make predictions about what might happen but it makes sense that as ‘the field of awareness’ frees and opens into itself, there is typically more balance and freedom in what is being experienced.

So maybe this expectation of an "aha" moment is a bit misleading in itself, then? Sounds like some people get a gate and others get a tunnel.. maybe some folks walk through it and are welcomed by a great fanfare, and others stumble through it and don't even realise until later.

It’s a deal then. Let’s fall.

Geronimo!

A question that you don't have to answer but one that has helped me with fears... what would be the worst outcome imaginable? Is it possible to find peace/freedom in that eventuality?

I might use this as a thought experiment next time my mind is catastrophising. I tend to think of the worst case scenario and then try and pedal frantically towards the other side of it. Maybe thinking about how I'd still manage to be OK even in the worst case would be less manic.

I very much relate to this experience, I can share something here as it’s relevant, I was going through the gate a very similar thing was happening for me, knotting and resistance coming up as it always had done. I had a deep abdominal massage and that night I had a dream where I literally fell through all of my existential type fears and trauma type holding/curling energy into eternity. It was quite profound.

That sounds awesome. My dreams never seem to be that pleasant, when I remember them. I've never had an abdominal massage, but in general I've not found I'm that great at being massaged - I seem to instinctively tense up against any pressure applied and it just ends up being rather unpleasant. Maybe I need your masseur's number? :)

The body can hold a lot of tension huh? It’s not what we’re pointing at or indeed vital but I wonder if you have any body-based practice, it can be ‘supportive’ in the energetic movements as you’re probably aware.

Mine certainly does. Hours of sitting in front of a laptop or carrying a baby around don't help, mind, but I do find I am very inept at physically relaxing even when I'm not doing those things. Either the brain's running about or the body's tensed up. I don't have any practice like that - the only ones I'm aware of tend to require either space, time, or money - and I'm quite short on all of those. (and the nondual brain helpfully chimed in there to proudly tell me time and space are concepts - smug bastard).

Stress, yes it comes up but it doesn’t feel as serious as it used to. As if before it felt threatening somehow. Threatening to someone perhaps. Maybe there’s also something about being more true to what is being experienced. If I’m feeling the beginnings of stress, so if I’m coming towards the end of my time with someone or there's tiredness, or if there are plans that now feel too burdensome, or if there's feelings of being unsupported or under-nourished there a deeper willingness to be true to that compass of being human and knowing the limitations of and being aware of and signals and wisdom in the body.

Thank you for your answer to this one. I do find it really interesting to hear about the experiences of those who have become more grounded in this understanding. It particularly stands out to me that you don't seem to mention "doing something" about the stress - rather it sounds like your natural inclination is to view it from a different perspective or a wider context. This makes sense. Although I'm not quite there yet, I am finding the experience of stress can bring some learning with it - will come back to this.

Of course when you’re with a baby it’s a whole other thing and I cannot speak from experience unfortunately. Baby daughter. How beautiful!

Babies are a wonderful thing. And they provide endless opportunity to find out where your emotional limits and stress triggers are, and to revisit your conceptions of how much control you have over things... so kind of them!

Let’s bring awareness to the nature of thought.
Who are these thoughts being generated on behalf of?

I would have to say the conceptual self, if you trace the thought to its route. They may seem to be superficially ABOUT something or someone else, but they all seem to track back to that "I". "I" want something to be different. What am "I" going to do to help this person. How should "I" respond to this situation.

Are they based in reality?

Hard to give a definite yes or no to this one. An initial appearance thought may have a basis in reality - such as a situation, an event, a person - but that thought seems to work like the trunk of a tree, that shoots off branches of separate thoughts that really don't have any basis in reality at all, they're just extrapolating, hypothesising, remembering based on perceptions of the first thought. This includes the thought of "I need to find a solution" that quickly comes along when a situation presents itself.

Maybe an example might clarify what I mean here. Apologies in advance if it's a bit waffly. So I mentioned we've been having some challenges getting our baby to sleep - she's gone from putting herself to sleep for the night to standing in her bed and refusing to get down. Previously when she's had sleep issues, we've done "sleep training" - small controlled periods of letting her cry a bit until she learns (remembers) how to calm herself down. When she's had difficulty or this hasn't worked on a particular night, we've picked her up, rocked her, sang to her, and she's then fallen asleep. Increasingly this second option has been difficult physically as she's grown, meaning both my wife and I increasingly struggle with back pain. With this latest onset of sleep problems, neither technique has been working. No amount of leaving her to work things out for herself has worked, and even hours of rocking and singing fails to work.
Last night we tried again to get her to calm herself, after the previous night she'd barely slept at all. We hoped that she'd be tired enough to stop fighting her bed so hard. But no joy at all. I quickly became overwhelmed with stress - almost to the point of anger. It's been a while since I've felt that despairing, to be honest. My mind was racing around trying to find solutions, and every one seemed to be impossible. Either I didn't think they'd work, had tried them and knew they wouldn't work, or didn't want to try them because even if they did work, they'd have negative consequences for my own wellbeing.

After what I can't deny was a good half hour of mind-racing, quiet swearing and emotional upheaval, I calmed down a little and went up to try a different method, one that I hadn't really tried before but had dismissed previously as "it won't work". And you know - it did. It took a while, it required persistence and an attitude of compassion, but when it was done she was sleeping, by herself, without me having to pick her up or carry her about. I'm sure it'll be a while before she's back to normal, but now I have a plan.

The reason I bring all of this up in the context of your question is that I gave some consideration to that whole thought process afterwards. The technique I ended up using I'd read about a few days previously. It had popped into my head again before the overwhelm of stress, anger, despair, resentment even. It had quickly been followed by a second thought - "that won't work". And then of course more thoughts - "why won't anything work" - "what am I going to do" - etc etc etc. It reminded me of the whole pointer around decisions and choices - that they happen, but that the act of attaching ownership and judgement to them and circling round them is a process of the conceptual self that doesn't help. When we eventually make a decision that turns out to be beneficial, we falsely claim that "I" did that.

In other words I actually knew the solution to the problem already, but I was getting in my own way of it and suffering for no good reason. None of those followup thoughts nor the emotional response was remotely helpful in solving the problem.

The initial thought I would class as based in reality - "the baby is not sleeping, it is important that she sleeps, our method is not working and we need an alternative". But instead of just progressing to something we had not yet tried, I got caught up in all the other thoughts of assuming outcomes, judging thoughts, self-recrimination, and lost sight of the decision that had already been made.

Sorry - that really was a lot. I told you babies were good teachers.

Where are these thoughts coming from?

Direct experience answer - they come from nowhere and go nowhere, they are simply appearances in the mind that are latched onto by the sense of self in order to reinforce its own value.
Conceptual answer, albeit based on my newer understanding of things - They're the result of a process in the mind that responds to the conditions of the external world. The mind/brain is essentially a biological computer. If left alone, the mind will produce a solution, but due to some rather unsophisticated coding in the computer of the brain, rather than a solution just appearing on the screen there is a vast blather of spam popups, notifications from other apps, and random pages of wingdings that obscures the message you actually want to see.

And please feel free to reveal any additional insights about what is happening here.

I think all I can add to my previous wall of text - or to summarise it - is that I'm starting to feel like there's quite a lot of understanding making its way to the background of things. I'm not looking at nondual pointers (which a few months ago I was consuming wildly to try and find "answers")- but I'm increasingly seeing things in real life that only seem to validate and confirm what those pointers are indicating. I may not be at the point where I'm reacting immediately from that understanding, but when I look back at situations where the reactivity and thoughts are triggered, it's easier to see what's going on and where the mind is obfuscating the truth. If that makes sense.

Thank you Paddy

No no, thank YOU. I really am finding this useful, and I value your insight.

All the best
Paddy

Paddy,

There’s a lot there, so I will not respond to everything and now shift from our conversational style to something a little more direct. It’s great to read your words getting a grip on how the thought patterns interfere with being in the flow and also getting some deeper insight into the parental challenges. She sounds like a marvellous teacher! Glad this is helpful and am enjoying the dialogue, laughter and delight happening too.

With regards to the body stuff, obviously this thread is not about that per se, so we will trust that what is being offered here is what is needed, but support in this area from someone else might valuable. The abdominal massage was actually self-massage, so if you ever make a trip to Guatemala I can hep you out lol.

This is always a space to process any changes, insights, so you’re welcome to keep on writing to your hearts content, I am enjoying reading it and it’s so helpful to share and process these things especially when deep listening is happening on ‘the other side’.

I’m feeling to create some focus as it’s clear you’ve got a grip on this but I want to invite you to experience what it’s like to go about life free of this belief in separation, which is already happening to some degree.

Some of our conversations have highlighted fear, story, expectation, having a desire to know what ‘realisation’ is like for ‘someone’ else etc. There’s only one way to find out! You’re there in your understanding and awareness of its mechanics and I wonder what is stopping you from living this.

Can ‘you’ now rest into life as it is with this realisation of no-self?

(Sorry about the annoying ‘you’ thing, occasional reminder of the failings of the English language in addressing oneness).

As mentioned in the notes, this is not a self-improvement program that ‘you’ are doing to make things better for ‘yourself’, that approach will perpetuate the issue at hand.

Can you relate to the world, nature, society, cyclists, your baby, your partner seeing ‘who’ you are and what they are? while allowing the fragments of the separate self, stories and strong emotional experiences to rise up and be allowed to be there as you seem to advise your friends?

What is stopping this?

What is stopping you from falling?

Can you be present with reality even despite the way ‘the world’ might remind us and tempt us to flirt with the contents of the mind?

Love and Gratitude

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Yes, there was a lot in that last one wasn't there. This will be a more concise reply, I promise.

You’re there in your understanding and awareness of its mechanics and I wonder what is stopping you from living this.

I'm not sure. Though from what I understand, whatever it is, isn't real. I think you've very concisely pointed to where the focus needs to be now.

Can ‘you’ now rest into life as it is with this realisation of no-self?

Can you relate to the world, nature, society, cyclists, your baby, your partner seeing ‘who’ you are and what they are? while allowing the fragments of the separate self, stories and strong emotional experiences to rise up and be allowed to be there as you seem to advise your friends?

What is stopping this?

What is stopping you from falling?

Can you be present with reality even despite the way ‘the world’ might remind us and tempt us to flirt with the contents of the mind?

For the first time since we started this dialogue, I don't have a clear answer presenting itself to these questions. From which I am intuiting that this is where the focus needs to be. If the understanding is there, and the answers are coming from me rather than recycled words (and it feels like this is the case) - then what is in the way? I don't know, but I know that the only way to find out is to look.

Marcus, the next couple of days I am likely to be very short on time to write further updates as there are responsibilities to be attended to. However I think this may be for the best. The fact I'm sticking on these questions like none that have come before... my intuition is that I need to let them absorb and process while I get on with life (or while life gets on with me?) and see what answers, insights or further questions arise.

At the latest I will respond to you on Monday to let you know what's been seen from the looking. I hope this is OK.

Until then, much love and gratitude to you.
Paddy

That's fine Paddy,

Just try to make sure that the momentum doesn't drop away.

I don't sense any resistance to the process from you, you've been very responsive and thorough with your answers, but just a heads up that old patterns of resistance, avoidance and distraction can come up in this process, hence why it is important to keep momentum and that sense of shared accountability and commitment to the process.

Looking forward to your nicely digested responses.

Love

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for bearing with me. It was a very busy weekend, but I've kept your last post in mind throughout and I don't feel that any momentum has been lost, but I'm still finding this a sticky area.

On one re-read I picked up on this line, before your questions-

I want to invite you to experience what it’s like to go about life free of this belief in separation, which is already happening to some degree.

Perhaps this speaks to where I'm getting stuck. On reflection what I seem to do, any time it feels like I'm ready to fully drop the belief of separation and just get on with life, that what I'm doing instead is trying to hold onto a belief in non-separation. Not dropping a belief but replacing it with another. And beliefs are for the self that is an illusion, so I guess it's no surprise that isn't doing the trick.

Can ‘you’ now rest into life as it is with this realisation of no-self?

Not intentionally, it would seem. Which is not to say it doesn't happen. During this busy weekend there have been several long periods where I've just been getting on with life, not planning, not paying much attention to thought stories, or the inner controller voice. But I only notice this after the fact. If I consciously try to relax or let go, it seems to bring up all the old control stories. "Right, we're relaxing now, is something going to happen, wait you're thinking again" etc.

As mentioned in the notes, this is not a self-improvement program that ‘you’ are doing to make things better for ‘yourself’, that approach will perpetuate the issue at hand.

I think some of that approach is still subtly there, and I totally see why it's wrong. Old habits die hard, I suppose - I've been trying to improve my "self" as long as I can remember.

Can you relate to the world, nature, society, cyclists, your baby, your partner seeing ‘who’ you are and what they are? while allowing the fragments of the separate self, stories and strong emotional experiences to rise up and be allowed to be there as you seem to advise your friends?

That last line really cuts to it. It's exactly the advice I give to other people. Why don't I listen, eh. I would say I'm getting better at this. I still find needless resentments to other people arising, or getting into hypothetical future arguments ahead of time, but I'd say it's happening less and lasting longer. There is still a fair amount of resistance to uncomfortable or difficult situations, though. Still an underlying drive to control my situation and make if more desirable. But, an improving ability to see this when it happens and allow it to drop, rather than push it away.

What is stopping this?
What is stopping you from falling?

That damn separate self and its control stories, I guess. The sense that the falling is something I need to do, the desire to understand what I'm going to land on before I jump. The very looking out for the fall itself - "am I enlightened yet". The analysis of thoughts and actions in of themselves seem to be what's stopping them from being seen clearly.
In other words, I seem to be putting a load of bullshit in my own way because of a need to know and understand. Maybe my original answer to this of "I don't know" was the more liberated response??

Can you be present with reality even despite the way ‘the world’ might remind us and tempt us to flirt with the contents of the mind?

Sometimes, if I'm not thinking too much about it (makes sense!). But I'd be lying if I didn't say I still don't find there are times when I can be sitting in a quiet, peaceful environment, with no present or actual concerns, but utterly distracted by the content of the mind, or blindly responding to an urge to distract myself from... nothing, really.

I really feel like I'm close to something changing. My best guess is that my own desire for that change and to understand it is what is getting in my way. The more I go around this loop the more I start to feel like there's no point trying to understand it, that there's no process I can go through to get myself through this gate, there isn't even a damn gate. All it needs is a relaxing of the controlling urge, but in trying to find a way to do that I'm just perpetuating it.

Sorry Marcus. I think I'm just going in circles with these questions so I'm not sure if my answers are of any use in trying to explain where I'm at. It really does feel like I'm now at my fundamental sticking point, but I don't know where to go from here.

Much love to you
Paddy

Paddy,

Thanks for keeping to your word.

Thanks for bearing with me. It was a very busy weekend, but I've kept your last post in mind throughout and I don't feel that any momentum has been lost, but I'm still finding this a sticky area.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

On one re-read I picked up on this line, before your questions-
‘I want to invite you to experience what it’s like to go about life free of this belief in separation, which is already happening to some degree.’
Perhaps this speaks to where I'm getting stuck. On reflection what I seem to do, any time it feels like I'm ready to fully drop the belief of separation and just get on with life, that what I'm doing instead is trying to hold onto a belief in non-separation. Not dropping a belief but replacing it with another. And beliefs are for the self that is an illusion, so I guess it's no surprise that isn't doing the trick.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

Well spotted. It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

Not intentionally, it would seem. Which is not to say it doesn't happen. During this busy weekend there have been several long periods where I've just been getting on with life, not planning, not paying much attention to thought stories, or the inner controller voice. But I only notice this after the fact. If I consciously try to relax or let go, it seems to bring up all the old control stories. "Right, we're relaxing now, is something going to happen, wait you're thinking again" etc.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

I think some of that approach is still subtly there, and I totally see why it's wrong. Old habits die hard, I suppose - I've been trying to improve my "self" as long as I can remember.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

That last line really cuts to it. It's exactly the advice I give to other people. Why don't I listen, eh. I would say I'm getting better at this. I still find needless resentments to other people arising, or getting into hypothetical future arguments ahead of time, but I'd say it's happening less and lasting longer. There is still a fair amount of resistance to uncomfortable or difficult situations, though. Still an underlying drive to control my situation and make if more desirable. But, an improving ability to see this when it happens and allow it to drop, rather than push it away.

It sounds like shifts happening.

That damn separate self and its control stories, I guess. The sense that the falling is something I need to do, the desire to understand what I'm going to land on before I jump. The very looking out for the fall itself - "am I enlightened yet". The analysis of thoughts and actions in of themselves seem to be what's stopping them from being seen clearly.
In other words, I seem to be putting a load of bullshit in my own way because of a need to know and understand. Maybe my original answer to this of "I don't know" was the more liberated response??

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

I really feel like I'm close to something changing. My best guess is that my own desire for that change and to understand it is what is getting in my way. The more I go around this loop the more I start to feel like there's no point trying to understand it, that there's no process I can go through to get myself through this gate, there isn't even a damn gate. All it needs is a relaxing of the controlling urge, but in trying to find a way to do that I'm just perpetuating it.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

Sorry Marcus. I think I'm just going in circles with these questions so I'm not sure if my answers are of any use in trying to explain where I'm at. It really does feel like I'm now at my fundamental sticking point, but I don't know where to go from here.

Quite the opposite on my end. Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

Love

Marcus

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy