The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It is my understanding that the separate self is and always has been an assumption adopted in early childhood and reassured throughout life by others. The separate self is an illusion that was never questioned. There is no separate self, just sensing, experiencing, openness.

What are you looking for at LU?
Hoping to give back to the LU community and others that are seeking by being a volunteer guide. "I" am also hoping to learn more as I go, from experienced guides, but also from those seeking. Looking for a sense of community with awakened beings. There is a lot of work that I still need to do. Many little programs still running that I am trying to disassemble.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'd be happy to go through a guided conversation to affirm my status . I don't expect anything from LU, but hope to deepen my understanding and also help others pass through the gateless gate. It is such a gift to have this awareness and I want to share this with the world.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was brought up in a Christian family, but starting doubting and eventually left it all behind in college. From there it was more of an atheist belief, but I never fully adopted or practiced anything with that. Always felt like there was something more to life and death, but didn't know what that was and didn't spend too much time on it. Through my husband's seeking, I was exposed to and have read Eckert Tolle's books and listened to several Youtube videos on non-dualism with Eckert Tolle, Rupert Spira, and Mooji, plus others. But I was never fully invested due to a busy work schedule and being stretched too thin with time (plugged into the Matrix). I had a few awakening experiences and eventually found LU.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

I'd be happy to go through a guided conversation to affirm my status

Yes, this is what we usually do. So let's just start with a few questions and we will see where this inquire will take you. Doe this sound good?

Could you please tell a bit about what happened when the illusion of the self was seen through?

What was seen exactly?

What was seen back then, is it still seen now in this moment if you look?

How do you know (what are the signs, proofs) that what happened wasn't an intellectual understanding, but a deeper experiential recognition?

What changed and what hasn't changed as the result of this recognition?

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Love,
Vivien

Hi Vivien

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. Sure this sounds good to me.

I should start off by saying I had a magic mushrooms trip and was shown over and over that the body is not what we truly are and that it is literally a highly advanced meat suit. I felt an identification with consciousness and for a very short time felt like I saw the world with new eyes and had a new lease on life. That started the fire for intense searching. I found Lisa Kahale on Youtube and she mentioned Liberation Unleashed. I went to the website, got and read Ilona's books and did 1 deep looking session with Ilona over Zoom. She recommended that I think about being a volunteer guide.

So in answer to your question,

Could you please tell a bit about what happened when the illusion of the self was seen through?

I officially saw through the illusion of self while reading Liberation Unleashed and going through some of the exercises. When I first understood what Ilona meant by looking that started the process, but it was when she said now close your eyes and look. Where are you? I asked myself "Is there a me running the show? Is there anyone there? Hello?" I heard and saw nothing. There was just open vastness. There was nothing there, but also something alive feeling. My mind was the most quiet it has been in a very long time. That was the big a-huh moment. Honestly, it made me tear up and cry. All my accomplishments, the immense struggle that got me where I was today, the happy things, and all my suffering was a story. "I" was just a story. I was only upset for a few moments, then a sense of relief came over me. I wasn't in charge. This long list of exhausting things to do and make sure where done right, being the best, being good, was out of my hands. I could let life live itself and sit back and enjoy it. For about a week, when I would tell my husband or a close friend, even Ilona on our zoom call, I would still tear up a bit saying the words out loud. "There is no me". "I don't exist". But now I am more comfortable with this status and again feel relief that I'm not running the show.

What was seen exactly?

As described in more detail above, what was seen was nothing. When I looked for a me, there was nothing there. I didn't exist. There was no little me controlling everything.

What was seen back then, is it still seen now in this moment if you look?

Yes. I can't unsee or un-know what I saw and what I experienced.

How do you know (what are the signs, proofs) that what happened wasn't an intellectual understanding, but a deeper experiential recognition?

Great question. I will try to answer this the best way I can.
When looking for the "I" with closed eyes, I saw and heard nothing. There was no response to my questioning and instead an unusually very quiet mind. It clicked! I felt a sinking in my stomach and a pain in my chest. Almost like I had gotten the wind knocked out of me. The thought brought me to tears. Felt like I was mourning the loss of a loved one. But then a new sense of relief and excitement quickly came afterwards within minutes. For about 2 weeks I went in and out of peace and relief paired with anxiety and panic attacks. Felt like the mind didn't want to accept this and was pushing harder to grab my attention. That's when I saw Ilona. Feeling more stable now.

What changed and what hasn't changed as the result of this recognition?

What did change is I am able to catch myself and others in my or their stories a lot easier. I can see it much clearer now. Thoughts are popping in without my control and they disappear on their own. Thought, beliefs and concepts don't stick like they used to. I do have a greater respect for this vessel/the body and wish to take better care of it. I used to push it to it's limits to reach a never ending list of goals.

What hasn't changed, I still get swept up in my story at times. I still suffer at times. There are many issues I need to work through and do "deep looking" with because they are based on an old and untrue belief. Me as a person that went through these situations.. My body, of course has not changed and this body is beat up and has been through a lot.

Thanks again for your time Vivien. And yes I can commit to posting daily to every other day.

Hi plantborn,

Thank you for your replies.

What name would you like me to call you?

"There is no me". "I don't exist". But now I am more comfortable with this status and again feel relief that I'm not running the show.

Yes, there is no me. But I don’t exist? Something exist, doesn’t it?

Can you really say that “I don’t exist”? Or rather “THE I (as a separate entity housed in the body, as a controller and doer) doesn’t exist”?
Or “I don’t exist in a way I thought I was”? But I still exist, but I'm not what I thought I was?


We are not denying life. We are not denying existence.
There is no separate I, yes.
But life IS, existence IS, aliveness IS, beingness IS, amness IS.
Can you see this?

Saying that “I don’t exist” can easily lead to nihilism, when the remnants of the egoic structure are active and start to interpret and intellectualize what has happened.

What hasn't changed, I still get swept up in my story at times. I still suffer at times. There are many issues I need to work through and do "deep looking" with because they are based on an old and untrue belief

Yes. When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

Vivien

Hi

What name would you like me to call you?

You can call me Erin.

Can you really say that “I don’t exist”? Or rather “THE I (as a separate entity housed in the body, as a controller and doer) doesn’t exist”?
Or “I don’t exist in a way I thought I was”? But I still exist, but I'm not what I thought I was?

Yes! Erin as a person does not exist. The body exists, the world exists, life is flowing through everything. But the story of a little Erin inside this body running the show was seen through.

But life IS, existence IS, aliveness IS, beingness IS, amness IS.
Can you see this?

Yes definitely. When I said I saw nothing from looking with my eyes closed, I meant I found no Erin. Erin as a person does not exist. Erin is a concept taken as fact and never questioned. I did however have the feeling of aliveness and I know that this realm exists. Live is flowing through everything including me. All one flow. No separate self.

Yes. When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

Thank you so much for clarifying this. I still have a lot I need to work through, but the awakening has already let some issues drop away. I am so grateful for this insight.

Erin

Hi Erin,

Thank you for your replies.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

I’m asking this since you want to be a guide, further looking into certain topics look could help deepening the seeing which could help later with guiding. These are the general topics that could come up: thinking, thinker, thought content vs noticing the presence of a thought, mental movie (of past or future), control, intention, choice, doer, feeler, sense of I, what I is the body in experience, time, emotions, experiencer. These come up right now. There might be more :)

Vivien

Hi Vivien

I would love to discuss any and all of those things. I feel that I still may have some confusion or need more clarity on these topics since this is all so new to me.

I appreciate you so much for the help and guidance.

Warmly,
Erin

Hi Erin,

Ok, then let’s start with thoughts.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

Can you trace back to the origin of a thought? I mean can you see where it is coming from?
And where is it going?

Is there any control whatsoever over thoughts?

Also, investigate this:
What is your experience of actual? And how do you know what is conceptual?

Vivien

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

I don't do anything to think. Thoughts pop into existence on their own. If asked a direct question, I seem to either spontaneously say the answer, or if it's something a bit more perplexing, I may sit with it for a few seconds or minutes "thinking", but again it just pops into my head.

Can you trace back to the origin of a thought? I mean can you see where it is coming from?
And where is it going?

No. I have no idea where they are coming from and where it goes when it pops out of my head. I used to think it was coming from my brain, but I have no way of knowing that. If I speak from direct experience, they pop in without me seeing an origin and disappear without a trace.

Is there any control whatsoever over thoughts?

No. The best method I have found to attempt to control them, is to look at each one as they come up. Putting awareness on a thought seems to make it disappear. At least for a moment or so. It can and often will pop up again on it's own.

What is your experience of actual? And how do you know what is conceptual?

It can definitely be tricky, but conceptual is my mind trying to calculate or figure out what is said and trying to understand or relate.
The actual, is experienced using the senses, whether it be a feeling, looking, hearing, smelling, tasting. Actual is experienced where conceptual is a thought process.

With gratitude,
Erin

Hi Erin,

You did a nice investigation.

No. The best method I have found to attempt to control them, is to look at each one as they come up. Putting awareness on a thought seems to make it disappear. At least for a moment or so. It can and often will pop up again on it's own.

So can a thought be controlled or not?

Is putting attention on a thought is done intentionally by someone/something? Is there a doer of it?
Or even putting attention on a thought just happening on its own? And only a thought claims “I did that”?

The actual, is experienced using the senses, whether it be a feeling, looking, hearing, smelling, tasting. Actual is experienced where conceptual is a thought process.

Exactly. So when we are looking for the self, or the doer, we are looking for an actual one, not just a conceptual one.

Can anything conceptual be ever be actual?

Like the concept of ‘economy’. Is it actual? Can it ever become actual?

And what about the thought of ‘freedom’?

Can freedom or economy ever be an experience, or they always remain in the realm of concepts, ideas (in mental realm as virtual (fake) reality)?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thank you. These next questions really revealed some of my confusion that I didn't realize I had.

So can a thought be controlled or not?

No thoughts can not be controlled.

Is putting attention on a thought done intentionally by someone/something? Is there a doer of it?
Or even putting attention on a thought just happening on its own? And only a thought claims “I did that”?

Ok wow. I did feel like I was catching myself lost in thought, then putting awareness on it or looking at it. But there is no I. That got unquestioned and overlooked somehow. Looking again now, yes the attention on the thought also does just happen on it's own. And the thought, I caught you, comes in as a follow up thought.

But now I wonder, who or what is doing the looking inward for this guiding? Who/what is seeking an end to suffering for this body-mind? What desires this? If I am honest, I think there might be some lingering identification with consciousness. Meaning, consciousness is suffering within this body-mind, because the body-mind thinks it's a separate person.

Can anything conceptual ever be actual?

Like the concept of ‘economy’. Is it actual? Can it ever become actual?

And what about the thought of ‘freedom’?

Can freedom or economy ever be an experience, or they always remain in the realm of concepts, ideas (in mental realm as virtual (fake) reality)?

Nothing that is a concept can be actual. Concepts are thoughts and ideas. The concept of economy is not actual and can never become actual.

As far as freedom, I never thought of that as a concept, but when looked at, What is freedom? What does freedom feel like?
You can not experience freedom. Freedom is a concept.

Thank you as always for deepening my understanding.

Erin

Hi Erin,

But now I wonder, who or what is doing the looking inward for this guiding? Who/what is seeking an end to suffering for this body-mind? What desires this? If I am honest, I think there might be some lingering identification with consciousness.

Meaning, consciousness is suffering within this body-mind, because the body-mind thinks it's a separate person.
Is consciousness INSIDE the body?

Is consciousness an entity? Or rather consciousness-ing is just happening? (as a verb, instead of being a noun)
For consciousness to suffer within this body-mind, first, consciousness must be an entity (noun), which defined boarders, locked inside the body. But is that so?

Is there really a sufferer? In any shape or form?
Or suffering is just another happening without anything doing it?
And without happening TO anything?

Just notice that the way you perceive consciousness is as a separate entity, which experience is happening TO. But is that so?

I think there might be some lingering identification with consciousness.

And WHO would identify with consciousness? Is there someone apart from the phenomenon of knowing (counscious-ing, aware-ing), identifying with it?

As far as freedom, I never thought of that as a concept, but when looked at, What is freedom? What does freedom feel like?
You can not experience freedom. Freedom is a concept.

Yes, exactly. So we are looking for an actual sufferer, an actual me, an actual person, not just a concept.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Ok seeing things more clearly now.

For consciousness to suffer within this body-mind, first, consciousness must be an entity (noun), with defined boarders, locked inside the body. But is that so?

No.
With further investigating, I WAS seeing consciousness as a noun. Consciousness isn't an entity and can not be confined.
Such as jumping. Jumping doesn't want to jump higher. Jumping doesn't suffer. Jumping can't be confined.

Just notice that the way you perceive consciousness is as a separate entity, which experience is happening TO. But is that so?

No. Consciousness is one flow without boarders and without separation. There is nothing happening to consciousness, since consciousness isn't an entity.

And WHO would identify with consciousness? Is there someone apart from the phenomenon of knowing (counscious-ing, aware-ing), identifying with it?

No. There is no one to identify with consciousness. There is also no one or thing to suffer.
There is a persistent idea of Erin that continues to want to be validated for existing. Sitting with this I found there was a concept, if Erin isn't a person, then maybe Erin is part of consciousness. Part of the big wholeness.
This is a great story, but also not actual. There is not a little piece of consciousness confined to this vessel suffering.

Thank you!
Erin

Hi Erin,
You did a nice inquiry :)

There is a persistent idea of Erin that continues to want to be validated for existing. Sitting with this I found there was a concept, if Erin isn't a person, then maybe Erin is part of consciousness. Part of the big wholeness.
This is a great story, but also not actual. There is not a little piece of consciousness confined to this vessel suffering.

Let’s look at Erin a bit more closely.

Is there any other ‘place’ where Erin exists except ‘in’ thoughts?

Or more precisely, is there anything else to Erin other than a serious of thoughts ABOUT it?

Notice, Erin is like a character in a novel. Just this novel is not read but listened to, it’s an audio book :)

Erin is created thought by thought, sentence by sentence. Do you see that?

If any given moment there is no thought present about Erin, there is nothing to it. Literally nothing.
But when there are thoughts present ABOUT this character, Erin comes online, seemingly.
Erin exist only in virtual reality in thought realm, appearing in the audiobook only by sentences / thoughts and maybe with some mental images (mental movies about the body).
In this narrated book, sometimes the story becomes a bit gloomy, and the character starts to suffer.

But is there really someone in the audiobook suffering?
Or there are only thoughts ABOUT someone suffering?

Please take these as pointers, and deeply investigate them. Let me know how it goes.

Love,
Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thank you. Your analogies were very helpful.

Is there any other ‘place’ where Erin exists except ‘in’ thoughts?

No. There is no other 'place' where Erin exists except in thoughts.

Or more precisely, is there anything else to Erin other than a serious of thoughts ABOUT it?

This question gets a little tricky. Erin is a series of thoughts that can cause emotions to appear in the body. Meaning a sick feeling in the stomach or tension in the shoulders and clinching of jaw. Although, I can listen to an audiobook and get similar reactions to the character in the story. I am seeing it's no different. However, the story of Erin 'feels' more personal.

Erin is created thought by thought, sentence by sentence. Do you see that?

Yes I can see that.

But is there really someone in the audiobook suffering?
Or there are only thoughts ABOUT someone suffering?

There is no person in the audiobook really suffering.
There are only thoughts about the character suffering. If "I" were to be listening to a novel on audiobook---Erin listens to the story intensely and imagines the character is real. She identifies with the character and goes through the emotions as the main character does. The same is happening in the story of Erin. There is a stream of thoughts. Emotions, tensions, contractions, joy, sadness, etc are experienced in the body automatically. It gives the story meaning and makes it more real.

Appreciate you so much.
With love,
Erin