The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When I look for me, I fail to find a "me" there. The sense perceptions are doing their usual things. 'Don't know', its' the best description I can come up with.

What are you looking for at LU?
I believe that I've already seen through it, but since there has been a quite intense search for over 10 years, I would still appreciate an external confirmation, enabling me to put that part of the search to a rest.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Maybe there still are pockets of self-belief somewhere in the body/mind, or I might have some misguided expectations. I am open to anything that I might be missing, I would love to have any doubts cleared out.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Over 10 years of a lot of nondual open-awareness meditations, vipassana, noting practice, mantras, self inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realization, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

I believe that I've already seen through it, but since there has been a quite intense search for over 10 years, I would still appreciate an external confirmation, enabling me to put that part of the search to a rest.

could you please say a bit more about this? What is it that you are searching?
What is missing?
What is not complete?
What should be different?
What is not OK?

or I might have some misguided expectations.

So what do you expect to happen?

Love,
Vivien

Hi Vivien, thank you for being my guide!

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Yes we agree!

could you please say a bit more about this? What is it that you are searching?
What is missing?
What is not complete?
What should be different?
What is not OK?

I've been trying out different methods and techniques (mostly self inquiries and pointers, noting, glimpses, vipassana etc) to see be able to see through the apparent illusion of a separate self. This took many attempts during the past few months, but it now seems apparent that it isn't there. Well for the past 10 years or so, the search has been about a kind of realization/a goal, after which I expected an effortless, obvious, and more or less continuous knowing that the separate self simply isn't there. This goal might be called anatta, advaita, stream entry, natural mind, ground of being etc...What I have wanted to get out of this experience is a somewhat lasting sense of ease and relief.
1. I've been looking for a way to find a lasting sense of ease and calm. An ability to relax fully.
2. I've had the idea that there must be a way to find more contentment with life than what I usually feel.
3. That I should feel better than this.
4. What makes it not OK is probably the resistance that I've had, the feeling that accepting the present moment is in itself a kind of defeat.

So what do you expect to happen?

There aren't any expectations presently, I don't know really.

Best wishes,
Erik

So what do you expect to happen?

Well, there is the kind of idea that I will completely let go of "searching", no need to meditate, practice, acquire "spiritual information", that stuff. Some kind of closure. That I got the joke.

Hi Erik,
Thank you for your replies.

This goal might be called anatta, advaita, stream entry, natural mind, ground of being etc...

Just notice that these ideas all have their own definitions, their own meaning. And the meaning is assigned by you. So you are searching for what these words mean for you. And from your replies it seems that your assigned meaning is peace, the ability to fully relax, ease and relief.

So what you are really after are these qualities. That’s your ultimate goal, isn’t it?

That’s OK, that’s totally normal, we all want peace and the ease of being.

But the question is: on whose behalf these qualities are longed for?
Who want to be at ease? Who wants to fully relax?

Look now… look for yourself who wants all of these. WHERE are you?

It’s very important that you don’t turn to your mind, to thoughts and describe your thoughts and understanding of it, but that you look at your immediate experience directly… and reply from there. You literally have to search for and find the one that is longing for peace.

I've been looking for a way to find a lasting sense of ease and calm. An ability to relax fully.

Investigate this… isn’t relaxation is a state of the body?
Isn’t the body which is either relaxed or contracted?

That I should feel better than this.

So you think that you are other than this…. That ‘this’ is happening TO you and not AS you. That ‘this’ (whatever is happening) is separate from you.

So where is this YOU, WHERE are you, who should feel better?
WHERE is the one longing for peace and ease?

What makes it not OK is probably the resistance that I've had, the feeling that accepting the present moment is in itself a kind of defeat.

Defeat for who? Just notice that you think that you are a separate entity who can be defeated and can have all sorts of experiences. That experiences are happening TO me. Do you see this default assumption?

So, we have to look for and actually find this me…. the one that experience is supposedly happening TO. So where is this ME?

Where is it in your immediate experience? Locate it with precision.

Vivien

Thank you so much for taking the time with me

So what you are really after are these qualities. That’s your ultimate goal, isn’t it?

Yes, reading about all these types of states/awakenings, it has always been wanting to obtain these qualities, like relaxation, peace, relief. That has been the goal, to feel that I passed, or got it.

But the question is: on whose behalf these qualities are longed for?
Who want to be at ease? Who wants to fully relax?

Look now… look for yourself who wants all of these. WHERE are you?

In direct experience, I fail to find a ‘who’ that is wanting these qualities. The stillness is fine as it is, it doesn’t need anything, nor can it obtain anything. It seems that for there to even be a wanting in experience, then there needs to be a thought based story, that is speaking of lacking. Without the story of lacking, there is no lacking to be found.

I fail to find ‘me’. Even the sense of location doesn’t seem to apply. There is a sense of hereness, closeness (around the chest, face area), but where that sense actually is located, it is impossible to pinpoint a location. So the sense of hereness is felt, but it is never known what it feels close to, or what it is that experiences the closeness. The experience of closeness seems to just be that, an experience of closeness.

Investigate this… isn’t relaxation is a state of the body?
Isn’t the body which is either relaxed or contracted?

Yes, relaxation and contraction are felt experiences in the body. It seems that they appear in a "knowing space". The knowing space is fine with both its inherent peace and stillness, as well as any contractions. If there are thoughts of worry or lack, and they are believed to be true, then that might evoke a felt response of contraction in the body.

So where is this YOU, WHERE are you, who should feel better?
WHERE is the one longing for peace and ease?

The one who should feel better could only ever come up as a story, derived from thoughts believed to be true. Without a story, there just isn’t anyone here.

Defeat for who? Just notice that you think that you are a separate entity who can be defeated and can have all sorts of experiences. That experiences are happening TO me. Do you see this default assumption?

Yes, for someone to be defeated, there has to be a story about a separate person and its preferences. A story about a person that has assumptions and beliefs about what should or should not happen to it.

So, we have to look for and actually find this me…. the one that experience is supposedly happening TO. So where is this ME?
Where is it in your immediate experience? Locate it with precision.

I simply cannot find a person, that experiences are happening to. There is observing, or maybe presence or knowing, -it’s hard to find a suitable term, but this presence is not something that is being done by anyone at all. It just is.

I suppose that the wanting to find any subtle remaining identification is itself also just a part of the search story. Looking for a deepening and more complete recognition, getting rid of bad habits etc. I assume that character traits and personality will stick around.

However, there is more and more peace, which I am grateful for.

Thank you!,
Erik

Hi Erik,

Thank you for your replies.

Yes, relaxation and contraction are felt experiences in the body. It seems that they appear in a "knowing space". The knowing space is fine with both its inherent peace and stillness, as well as any contractions. If there are thoughts of worry or lack, and they are believed to be true, then that might evoke a felt response of contraction in the body.

We have to clearly differentiate between understanding (which is a thought based learned knowledge) and experiential seeing…. This is essential.

So, can you experientially see what you wrote in the above quote, or rather it’s just a learned knowledge, and intellectual knowledge?

The one who should feel better could only ever come up as a story, derived from thoughts believed to be true. Without a story, there just isn’t anyone here.

And what about this one? Is this seen experientially, or rather this is just a logical conclusion based on learned knowledge?

I simply cannot find a person, that experiences are happening to. There is observing, or maybe presence or knowing, -it’s hard to find a suitable term, but this presence is not something that is being done by anyone at all. It just is.

Look at this very closely… is this presence an entity?

Does this presence have a physical location? Somehow being linked to the body? Maybe a sensation in the chest? Or in the head?

Does this presence have boundaries or edges?

However, there is more and more peace, which I am grateful for.

That’s good. Although, there might be a longing for peace, actually, the presence or the lack of peace is not the necessary a sign of seeing that there is no separate person.

Since seeing that there is no separate self is NOT a state.
It’s not a different state than what is happening right now.
It’s certainly not a special state.
It’s just a simple, experiential recognition of the fact that there is no entity inside the body, thinking, feeling, deciding, choosing, having a life.
But it doesn’t automatically follow that half of the human emotions (all the unpleasant ones) will be gone, and only the pleasant ones will have left to enjoy. And who would enjoy it anyway?

In order to someone or something to enjoy peace, there has to be something separate from, other than the current experience showing up as peace.

So you say there are more and more peace.
So what is it here, right now, having peace? Or enjoying peace?

Search through the whole body head to toe, and look for the one that peace (or the lack of it) is happening TO.
The one that is having it.
What do you find?

And where is the location where any emotion is felt from?
Where is the location of the feeler?

Please spend a whole day inquiring on these questions. Be thorough. Look again and again repeatedly.

With love,
Vivien

We have to clearly differentiate between understanding (which is a thought based learned knowledge) and experiential seeing…. This is essential.

So, can you experientially see what you wrote in the above quote, or rather it’s just a learned knowledge, and intellectual knowledge?

Yes, it is seen in experience. It appears as black text on white background. Am I doing it right? =) Otherwise, yes experience is felt as empty space, in which body sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, thoughts comes and goes.

And what about this one? Is this seen experientially, or rather this is just a logical conclusion based on learned knowledge?

In experience/presence, there is currently no person here. And it is unclear how a story in presence could make a person appear.

Look at this very closely… is this presence an entity?

Does this presence have a physical location? Somehow being linked to the body? Maybe a sensation in the chest? Or in the head?

Does this presence have boundaries or edges?

1. I am not sure that presence exist. It might be that there's only the content of sight, sound, sensations, taste, smell and thought appearing. Any label (including presence), thought, idea about it can not be what it is.
2. No physical location, if anything, it is physical location itself, and there are no other physical locations to compare it to. Presence is not linked to the body. The body appears in presence. Sensations in the chest or head appears in presence.
3. No boundaries or edges, it doesn't have a definable size. It is as big as it needs to be.

So what is it here, right now, having peace? Or enjoying peace?

Search through the whole body head to toe, and look for the one that peace (or the lack of it) is happening TO.
The one that is having it.
What do you find?

And where is the location where any emotion is felt from?
Where is the location of the feeler?

1. Peace is having peace. Enjoying peace is enjoying peace. I don't know if presence is having anything at all. It seems that the content in presence appear as themselves, to themselves, by themselves.
2. It appears as a feeling of peace, in presence.
3. Conceptually, in the chest and face usually. The feeler hasn't showed up for work in a while, but the job is still being done though =)

With love and gratitude,
/Erik

Hi Erik,

1. I am not sure that presence exist. It might be that there's only the content of sight, sound, sensations, taste, smell and thought appearing. Any label (including presence), thought, idea about it can not be what it is.
2. No physical location, if anything, it is physical location itself, and there are no other physical locations to compare it to. Presence is not linked to the body. The body appears in presence. Sensations in the chest or head appears in presence.
3. No boundaries or edges, it doesn't have a definable size. It is as big as it needs to be.

What we were looking at here if is there any bodily sensation being mistaken for presence / awareness / knowingness / whatever you want to call it. Since this is a quite common misperception… that experience is looked at from, or noticed / known from at a certain place.

So please check it again, just to be totally sure about this.
Is there any place that this current experience is noticed/looked at/watched FROM?
Is there any reference point? Any place to locate?

3. Conceptually, in the chest and face usually. The feeler hasn't showed up for work in a while, but the job is still being done though =)

So, is there a feeler in reality?
Or the feeler is just a mistaken sensation perceived to be not just an ordinary sensation, but an entity, a feeler?

Has there ever been a real feeler, and not just an imagined one?

Is there anything or anyone separate from this experience, having it?
Is there anything standing out, in a distance, watching experience unfolding?

Is there anything here but the knowing of this experience, right now?

Can you separate yourself out of experience?
Are you separate from anything?

Please spend a whole day looking at these questions again and again. Go deep, be thorough.

Love,
Vivien

Is there any place that this current experience is noticed/looked at/watched FROM?
Is there any reference point? Any place to locate?

Experience is self-illumined, self-aware, everywhere watched from itself, by itself. An already present wide awake self-illumined experience, without a head, without anyone or anything doing it. The body feels hollow and merged with visual experience. It is one unified experience, always here.

So, is there a feeler in reality?
Or the feeler is just a mistaken sensation perceived to be not just an ordinary sensation, but an entity, a feeler?

There is experience of empty space, with flickers of energy appearing here and there, coming and going. A self aware experience, itself aware of experience. Space do space, feeling do feeling, sensation do sensation. There is no one/no thing that is doing feeling.

Has there ever been a real feeler, and not just an imagined one?

There has never been a real feeler. The feeler came along with the mistaken identity as a separate self.

Is there anything or anyone separate from this experience, having it?

It is all one, self-illumined, automatically already present and complete experience. No doer, no haver.

Is there anything standing out, in a distance, watching experience unfolding?

Experience itself watches experience unfold. Experience is self-known, self-seen, self-aware, self-appearing.

Is there anything here but the knowing of this experience, right now?

There is one, unified, self knowing experience.

Can you separate yourself out of experience?

Experience can’t be separated out of experience.

Are you separate from anything?

There is always an encompassing, unified completeness.

From the heart,
Erik

Is there any place that this current experience is noticed/looked at/watched FROM?
Is there any reference point? Any place to locate?

To try to clarify, the objects appear where they are, and it is from their location that they are seen, in one whole, unified, field of vision. There is no sense of a "seeing-direction", that I am looking out towards the object. All locations are seen and appear evenly, in this one unified whole seeing experience.

Hi Erik,

Nice :)

Is there any doubt?

Is there something that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Love,
Vivien

Hi Vivien, thank you so much for the help,

Is there any doubt?

Wherever I look, I can't find a separate self. There is no doubt about that.

Is there something that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

I'd appreciate looking a bit at intentions, and how it is that decisions happen. For instance, "Will I lift up the cup or not?", at times it isn't known, other times there is a felt intention that I will do it, and I continue to do so.

Also, if I close my eyelids and move my eyes around, there is a sense of intention to move them, just before the eyes are moved.

With love, have a great day!,
Erik

Hi Erik,

I'd appreciate looking a bit at intentions, and how it is that decisions happen. For instance, "Will I lift up the cup or not?", at times it isn't known, other times there is a felt intention that I will do it, and I continue to do so.

Also, if I close my eyelids and move my eyes around, there is a sense of intention to move them, just before the eyes are moved.

Well, doership belongs to the belief in a separate self. Intention is a doing. intending is belief in thinking. And thinking is also doing.

So as long as there is a sense that I am thinking this or that, I intend to do this or that, the default mode of the separate self is active. So let’s look into this.

Look at this very closely…

In what way or form intention shows up?

Is there anything to intention than a thought saying “I intend to…” , “I want to….”?
Is there anything to intention than a thought? Anything at all?

Please spend a whole day experimenting with it. There are lots of intentions are going on in our daily lives. So use your life as for investigating.

Vivien

In what way or form intention shows up?

A thought-story appears about why an action needs to be taken, if the story is believed in, then it is labeled as intention. There is no inherent intention in reality.

Is there anything to intention than a thought saying “I intend to…” , “I want to….”?

Intentions are only labels, made up of thoughts believed to be true. Thoughts themselves have no impact on what happens, unless they are believed in. The thought “I intend to raise the arm” or “I want to raise the arm”, does not raise the arm. But my neck was itching just now, and my arm was raised to scratch it. This happened automatically and without a label of an intention to scratch the itch.

Is there anything to intention than a thought? Anything at all?

Intentions are thought based stories and ideas believed in, nothing else. The label is never life itself.

These were useful questions, thank you. Are there more similar questions, about habitual beliefs, language, stories and assumptions?