The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The way I understand it i that 'self' is just a word but it does not point to anything real that can be seen. Just like the word 'other' it can be helpful in making distinctions between objects / people for communication purposes, but there is no 'self' or 'other' anywhere to be found. Because we speak of 'self' we are convinced there IS a 'self'.

What are you looking for at LU?
To get clarity, stop the search and simply be content with life as it is. To stop self-monitoring and judgement of where I am 'on the path'. To find equanimity in daily life and not feel like a social misfit.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honesty and help with ending the need to search. I expect that the guide will know to ask the right questions which are needed to break through any nonsense that I carry with me. I have trust in their direct experience and wisdom.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
In the past 5 years the search has been pretty intense. I've explored mindfulness meditation, nondualism, philosophy, psychology and poetry. I think there hasn't been a single day when I wouldn't do any seeking. I've had brief moments of bliss and clarity but I always seem to fall back into a state of feeling disconnected and alone in the search. Lately I came across Liberation Unleashed and watched a lot of talks / videos by Ilona Ciunaite.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Asha

My name is Tim and I'm a guide in the UK. Is Asha the right name for you?

I'd be very happy to be your guide and walk along this apparent path with you for a while. :) I hear what you say about the intensity of the search. You also said you would like:

To get clarity, stop the search and simply be content with life as it is. To stop self-monitoring and judgement of where I am 'on the path'. To find equanimity in daily life and not feel like a social misfit.

I like your expressed wish for simple contentment with life as it is.

I've got some more questions for you to explore...

What if there never was an 'I' in the first place to need things or to judge and monitor? What if there was no 'me' in control?
Tell me what that brings up for you now.
What do you think might change for you if you saw through the illusory separate self?
How might life change?

One or two things also for you to look at below.
1. How to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
2. Frequently asked questions: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
3. LU disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

Once you're happy to get going, please just post a reply on this thread. Just relax and enjoy the process. There are no right or wrong answers here... :)

With love

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thank you so much for doing this. Asha is the right name and I am very happy to start the process :)

Regarding your question below.

What if there never was an 'I' in the first place to need things or to judge and monitor? What if there was no 'me' in control?
Tell me what that brings up for you now.

That would mean that there is just judgement / monitoring happening in the experience of this human being while there is no separate originator who would bring it about. It seems to be that there is intentionality in our actions though. For example, I seemingly chose to come here to seek a guide. I seem to control what I am writing now. I don’t know where the choice or control originates though.

What do you think might change for you if you saw through the illusory separate self?
How might life change?

I think it will be a subtle but significant change in how life is perceived. I think once that happens life might gradually become much more relaxed and free-flowing.

That’s all I’ve found for now.

Thank you for your time and the encouragement in your message :)

With love,
Asha

Hi Asha

Nice to hear from you. :) Just to make understanding our communication easier, what time zone are you in?

I think it will be a subtle but significant change in how life is perceived. I think once that happens life might gradually become much more relaxed and free-flowing.

This reads well. Certainly the change can be very subtle at times or sometimes quite dramatic. Best to leave all expectations behind as they can seemingly interfere with seeing what is happening here and now.

That would mean that there is just judgement / monitoring happening in the experience of this human being while there is no separate originator who would bring it about. It seems to be that there is intentionality in our actions though. For example, I seemingly chose to come here to seek a guide. I seem to control what I am writing now. I don’t know where the choice or control originates though.

Plenty to look at here. From now on the focus will be on using direct experience when responding to questions. An example might be if I asked you what the weather is like today - you could answer from memory or you could look out of the window and see. It's that direct looking that yields best results. We're talking about using all the senses of hearing, seeing, smell, taste, sensation and so on.

Let's have a look at what is

happening in the experience of this human being

right now.
Just sit for 5-10 minutes or so and observe what is coming in and let me know your findings. Don't try to anticipate what I'm getting at, just tell it like it seems to you.

A related question. What is this 'human being' you refer to and how does it relate to the experiences you've recorded?

Go for it! Remember, there are no right or wrong answers here, just be curious and see what you see.

With love

Tim

Hi Tim,

Good to hear from you too :) I am in Poland so I am 1 hour ahead of you.

Just sit for 5-10 minutes or so and observe what is coming in and let me know your findings. Don't try to anticipate what I'm getting at, just tell it like it seems to you.

There are noises coming in from outside - a dog barking, distant voices of children playing. There is the sound of me typing on the keyboard. The sun is coming through the blinds and as I move my head it seems to be moving with me. I can feel where my body makes contact with the bed I am sitting on and the feeling of one foot resting on the other. There is a sense of simply being also and a tingly sensation and warmth felt inside at the moment.

What is this 'human being' you refer to and how does it relate to the experiences you've recorded?

It is the person for whom all these sensations are showing up. The person describing what has been recorded.

With love,
Asha

Hi Asha

Practically a neighbour then. :) I loved your description of experience, I was almost there with you. Let's look more closely now.

There are noises coming in from outside

Can direct experience tell you where sounds are coming from? Close your eyes and focus on a sound. Does it really have a location in direct experience (DE)?

a dog barking, distant voices of children playing.

Where does this information come from to say what made the noises? Does the sound sensation arise at exactly the same time as the 'interpretation/labelling'

the feeling of one foot resting on the other

This is a good one. Try sitting in a similar position, look closely and tell me how many sensations contribute to this conclusion. Don't think it through, just sit still and look at the sensory information.

There is a sense of simply being also and a tingly sensation and warmth felt inside at the moment.

Great that you are aware of this.

It is the person for whom all these sensations are showing up.

So where is this person? How do you know there is a person? Are the sensations owned in some way by this person?

The person describing what has been recorded.

This is a little confusing to me. Was the recording done by a different person?

There is no attempt to catch you out with these questions. It's just trying to get a laser focus on what your experience is and how it all apparently works. You're doing really well. :)

With love

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thank you :)

I am ready to look more closely now.

Can direct experience tell you where sounds are coming from? Close your eyes and focus on a sound. Does it really have a location in direct experience (DE)?

No it clearly cannot tell me where it is coming from. No location.

Where does this information come from to say what made the noises? Does the sound sensation arise at exactly the same time as the 'interpretation/labelling'

The information comes when I start thinking about it. The sound comes before any interpretation.

This is a good one. Try sitting in a similar position, look closely and tell me how many sensations contribute to this conclusion. Don't think it through, just sit still and look at the sensory information.

There is a sense of the sole of my foot resting against something warm. I can see the top of the right foot but only a part of the left foot.

So where is this person? How do you know there is a person? Are the sensations owned in some way by this person?

The sensations simply are. No owner. The question about the person is a bit tricky for me as I am not sure how to look directly here.

The person describing what has been recorded.
This is a little confusing to me. Was the recording done by a different person?

No, the recording was done by the same person. I am not sure myself anymore what I meant there, sorry!

With love,
Asha

Hi Asha

That was quick!

No it clearly cannot tell me where it is coming from. No location.

Good.

The sound comes before any interpretation.

Good.

The sensations simply are. No owner. The question about the person is a bit tricky for me as I am not sure how to look directly here.

Good investigation! Yes, it's tricky looking for a person who owns or claims the experience. Here's an exercise to do that looks at it indirectly.

For 5-10 minutes write down concisely what is happening in experience using your natural language. eg I hear the clock ticking, I feel hungry, I drink some water, I write some words. For the next 10 minutes do the same thing but without using any self referential label (like I, me, my, mine). eg sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock.

Now look at your two lists.
1. Is one truer than the other and if so which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

OK, that's more than enough for one day and I don't want to bore you looking at this too much. However, it's really good to work out how things appear to work a little as we go forward.

Goodnight for now.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Nothing about it is boring to me :) I am really intent on doing whatever is necessary to see through this illusion. I am extremely grateful for every question and for all you do.

This exercise was not as easy to do as I imagined it would be. For some reason a lot of analysis of what the 'right answer' might be was creeping in. Nevertheless I tried putting analysis aside and here are my observations.

Now look at your two lists.
1. Is one truer than the other and if so which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

1. The 2nd list seems truer because it is more direct. There is no doer, just things happening. When writing down the experiences without the referential label more things were noticed which I did not pay attention to during the first part of the exercise (eg. heart beating, sensations inside the body). The first list is more focused on activities than sensations.

2. Everything just is without labels until I add one.

3. Labels add a subject to the experience and create a story. The story feels like an unnecessary layer added to the experience. It creates the sense that I already know this well, there is nothing new about it, I am just recalling what I experienced a million times.

I look forward to digging deeper into this if needed.

With love,
Asha

Hi Asha

Good work again and I'm glad you're finding it interesting. :)

For some reason a lot of analysis of what the 'right answer' might be was creeping in. Nevertheless I tried putting analysis aside and here are my observations.

Well noticed! That pesky mind is always there trying to help. If it seems very persistent, try actually giving it attention, thanking it for its suggestions, giving it some appreciation and then going back to the exercise. You may find this quietens the mind a little rather better than trying to ignore it. :)

The 2nd list seems truer because it is more direct.

Yes, we like directness!

There is no doer, just things happening.

I'm not sure where this came from. Could you please explain what was going on here?

2. Everything just is without labels until I add one.

3. Labels add a subject to the experience and create a story. The story feels like an unnecessary layer added to the experience.

Great! So am I right in saying that you have found that you can have the experience of sensations, sounds etc, without any prior or simultaneous involvement of the person/I?

Can you please continue to look at this during normal day to day activities today and see if that is the case?

With love

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thank you for the suggestions on how to quiet the mind, it does help quite a bit :)

In regards to

There is no doer, just things happening.
I'm not sure where this came from. Could you please explain what was going on here?

I was elaborating on why the 2nd list was more direct - because there is no doer 'I' only the thing happening eg. 'breathing' 'typing' etc. The phrase itself is something I have read / heard in the past and I thought it fit here.

So am I right in saying that you have found that you can have the experience of sensations, sounds etc, without any prior or simultaneous involvement of the person/I?

Can you please continue to look at this during normal day to day activities today and see if that is the case?

This has been frustrating because I wanted to be able to confirm it very much in my experience but I'd have to say I couldn't. Every time a sensation arose, it seems I would analyze if there is a person involved instead of looking. I don't know if I'm trying too hard. I've also had a few short nights of sleep so not feeling my sharpest today. I will continue to look at it and report back if that's okay.

Thank you for your patience.

With love,
Asha

Hi Asha

Thank you for the suggestions on how to quiet the mind, it does help quite a bit :)

That's good. :)

I was elaborating on why the 2nd list was more direct - because there is no doer 'I' only the thing happening eg. 'breathing' 'typing' etc. The phrase itself is something I have read / heard in the past and I thought it fit here.

Thank you for clarifying Asha. Was that your experience that there was no doer or was it more theoretical?

This has been frustrating because I wanted to be able to confirm it very much in my experience but I'd have to say I couldn't. Every time a sensation arose, it seems I would analyze if there is a person involved instead of looking. I don't know if I'm trying too hard. I've also had a few short nights of sleep so not feeling my sharpest today. I will continue to look at it and report back if that's okay.

I think I didn't phrase the question very well. I just wanted you to confirm for yourself a few more times that sensation arises before thought comes along with the label. There is no hurry in this search, we can take as long as is needed. Just have a good rest and try again when you feel recovered.

Wishing you a peaceful night.

Tim

Good Morning Tim,

Thank you for your kindness. Got a good night of sleep and all ready now :) You wrote there is no hurry and thank you for that because it let me realize I have been rushing. Even yesterday when I saw there was a response from you I went immediately to check and wanted to respond but then decided to relax and get rest instead.

Thank you for clarifying Asha. Was that your experience that there was no doer or was it more theoretical?

This was theoretical. And something I said thinking it would be 'the right answer'.

I think I didn't phrase the question very well. I just wanted you to confirm for yourself a few more times that sensation arises before thought comes along with the label. There is no hurry in this search, we can take as long as is needed. Just have a good rest and try again when you feel recovered

.

You phrased it well, I just overcomplicated it. Yes, it is clear to me that sensations arise before any thought / label.

With love,

Asha

Good morning to you too Asha :)

Thanks for your responses again. It's only natural to want to put down the 'right answers' because we're so used to that exam learning type of inquiry. This is completely different and is looking at your lived experience moment to moment so in fact, only you can know what the right answer is! How weird is that?!

OK so lets spend a little time looking at thoughts today. We've seen that sensations arise in awareness and then get labelled by a thought. Then there are those other thoughts to do with 'thinking about things'. Here's a little exercise for you to do.

Sit somewhere quiet, take some deep breaths and get a little centred and calm. Now:

1. Try to deliberately think a thought.
2. Can you control what thought comes up?
3. Can you stop a thought?
4. Can you see where a thought came from?
5. Can you see where a thought goes?
6. Can you control gaps between thoughts?

As well as setting time aside to do this as an exercise, it's the sort of thing you might find yourself looking at during normal life. Just be curious and see what come up.

Love

Tim

Hi Tim,

Good to hear from you on this beautiful day :)

I hear you regarding looking at my lived experience rather than anticipating what the right answer is.

I spent a couple of hours on the exercise while sitting in my garden this morning. Being in nature helps me get centered and calm.

1. Try to deliberately think a thought.
2. Can you control what thought comes up?
3. Can you stop a thought?
4. Can you see where a thought came from?
5. Can you see where a thought goes?
6. Can you control gaps between thoughts?

1. I don't think I can deliberately think a though unless the thought 'Ok I am going to think a thought now' counts as a deliberate thought. As soon as I think that though a completely random thought comes in eg. playing my violin which I did before starting this exercise. I can chose to stay with the subject I thought about and think additional thoughts eg. 'I am going to practice more today' but I have no idea why precisely that thought comes and not another.
2. No, I can never control what thought comes up.
3. No, I cannot stop a thought. I can try to ignore it or redirect my attention to something else but the thought does not go away on demand.
4. It seems to be coming from nowhere.
5. It just fades away, I have no idea where it goes. :)
6. I cannot. I can just see that the more relaxed I get, the longer the gaps.

As well as setting time aside to do this as an exercise, it's the sort of thing you might find yourself looking at during normal life. Just be curious and see what come up.

Yes, I will do it more as I go about my day.

Tomorrow morning I am going to the mountains for 4 nights. I am not sure how good my internet connection will be so I wanted to give you the heads up in case I go silent. I hope to be able to stay in touch though.

Lots of love,

Asha