The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand the "self" as a thought/narrative process that is an illusion and the cause of much needless suffering. Try as I might, despite having a regular meditation practice and understanding/agreeing with the concept of no self, I am struggling to grasp this on an experiential level.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm hoping to experience the truth about who/what I am. I understand this won't solve all my problems or make my life an extended stretch of bliss. That's good, because I don't want to escape from life; I want to move towards the truth, towards experience including discomfort, and towards beauty. I'm motivated to be of service to others, and I hope that this will make me a better, happier person. When I discovered this organization, I had a strong sense that I had finally found just what I needed.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
First of all, I'm extremely appreciative that anyone would spend their time to help me, a complete stranger. Thank you for even considering it. I'm hoping for direct and honest feedback/pointers from someone who has gone through this process. I'm willing to work very hard and take an uncompromising and honest look at things.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have a Zen meditation practice and meditate around an hour a day. I've had some progress seeing through the illusion of self, mostly in meditation, but it is very unstable and feels incomplete somehow. Often, I'll have a sense of vast and expansive awareness, but struggle to maintain it when dealing with others, working, in times of stress, etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Good morning,

First, you're very welcome. Thank you for being patient. We could use more guides, as you can tell by how long you've had to wait.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

You mentioned some expectations & they're mostly pretty reasonable. So...

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

Good morning,

First, you're very welcome. Thank you for being patient. We could use more guides, as you can tell by how long you've had to wait.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

You mentioned some expectations & they're mostly pretty reasonable. So...

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm very excited about this, and I appreciate your help and time!

I have one quick question, and please let me know if this is ok - a while back, I scheduled some time to speak with one of the LU guides via video chat (Ilana), and that's coming up later this week. Bad planning on my part! Is that ok? I feel a little bad rescheduling or cancelling because it's been booked for so long. If it might get too confusing or muddled, I can always wait to initiate with you here until after this video session. I trust your judgement - completely up to you!

Assuming it's ok to move forward, here are some responses to your questions:

How will life change?

I'm hoping for a more flexible, more playful engagement with life without some of the rumination and fretfulness that comes with belief in the self. Less worry and more appreciation for the miracle of existence. A more open embrace of emotions. Perhaps more clarity regarding life and consciousness.

How will you change?

By really seeing through the illusion, I anticipate a more streamlined, efficient existence. More childlike (in a good, enthusiastic way). Less craving and dissatisfaction which is driven by this illusion. Less of a certain unwillingness to fully engage with reality as it is right now.

What will be different?

I feel like I'm hiking with a big heavy backpack. Seeing through the illusion of self, from what I've experienced in a fleeting sense in my meditation practice, is like removing this heavy burden and walking with a lightness. I've also experienced a heightened sense of connection with everything when these artificial boundaries have been removed.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing - I feel like I have the opposite problem of excess referential thinking/wanting.

Reading through these, I realize this is expecting a LOT! There are probably some unrealistic expectations in there! I should also say I'm expecting to be uncomfortable and probably to have to push through resistance, a perceived sense of boredom, fear, and other uncomfortable states.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Steve is good! I'm in the Mountain Daylight time zone. I'm more than willing to post at least daily while we do this. My work schedule is all over the place (days, nights, etc.), so depending on that there might be some variability.

Thanks again for everything,

Steve

Hi Steve!

I work an 8-hour Monday - Friday job. I'll reply sooner when I can, but it's been a bit busy lately.

Definitely keep your appointment with Ilona. She's very clear. She was my guide. She also has some very helpful videos on YouTube that you can watch.

Your expectations are pretty normal and not terribly excessive.

I live north of Boulder, so we're in the same timezone. Where are you?

Let's get started & you can do the session with Ilona and then decide what's next. You may be able to work through faster on video with her. Replies here are slower.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & it is all a made up story, like Santa Claus?


Much love,

Hi Stacy!

Sounds great! Yeah, I'm pumped about speaking with Ilona - she seems amazing. I appreciate you being so flexible!

Where are you?

We're neighbors! I'm in Denver!

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & it is all a made up story, like Santa Claus?

While in the que to interface with a guide, I spent some time reading two of the LU books and pondering this statement. Initially, it brought up tension and anxiety, as well as some excitement. Those sensations and feelings have given way to an almost numb acceptance, but that hasn't yet translated into changes in how I act or feel unless effort is directed towards some acknowledgement of this truth in the present. A lot of thought content and doubt surfaces, which I'll try to explain.

It makes sense from a logical and experiential standpoint. When I'm existing in the present, I can clearly see there's no self, and I can't imagine how there could be a self to locate or what that would feel/look like. I can see there's no ghost driving the machine, as my body and thought streams usually seem to function without prior intention, although not always. Noticing this seems to take some effort, as I mentioned above. It's more of an active than a passive process, and it seems to vanish when interacting with others, working, chasing after my kids, or anything else that could be mildly demanding and not allow for a reassuring self check that comes up empty.

Most deliberately volitional activity still feels very "selfy" if that makes sense. I think this may be part of what is incomplete in my understanding, and it's part of the thought storm that blows in when I read your statement. And I can reason through this to a degree, and I've of course never found any evidence of a self, but it's almost like I don't trust that I'm not just tricking myself into believing that I'm seeing something that I'm very motivated to see.

It reminds me of the sense that I had when I was younger and my parents took me to church (I'm not religious now unless you count my Zen meditation practice). As a kid, I really wanted to believe and accept the amazing things being taught in church (about heaven, etc.), and I could describe what I believed and it would sound convincing to others (and kind of to myself), but on a deeper level I never fully believed of accepted the teachings. I feel like the boy who cried embrace of a spiritual teaching.

So there's a weird irrational mental knot of seeing the truth to your statement in the moment, accepting it logically/philosophically, and then somehow doubting whether I've truly seen, experienced, understood and accepted the statement.

Thanks so much,

Steve

PS: let me know if I'm writing too much, or if focusing more on the present moment more or anything like that would be better - I'm open to feedback!

Hey Stacy!

Before you take a stab at my last post and waste a bunch of time - I think after speaking with Ilona, I'm clear now. Things are good, the illusion of self has been seen through. Thanks again for your willingness to guide me!

Best of luck and take care!

Steve

That's great. I had a feeling that might happen.

Welcome!

Hey,

Did Ilona ask you some "final questions? "

Did she mention inviting you to Facebook groups if you're interested?

Most important, do you have any interest in hiding
guiding others?

Thanks!

Hi Stacy,

Sorry for the delay, for some reason I didn’t get the usual link in my mailbox saying you had responded.

Ilona didn’t ask me the three questions or mention the Facebook group, actually. I’d definitely be interested in guiding others but I’m not completely sure I’m ready or competent enough! What do you think?

- Steve

Hi Steve,

Check to see if you're still subscribed to your thread using the little tool icon. If it says "subscribe," you're not. If it says "unsubscribe," you are.

So, these are the final questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


You can answer those, if you like, and I can submit your thread to other guides to confirm or ask more questions. At that point, once that's complete, an admin will change your name here from green to blue and change the avatar icon.

Guiding is not terribly difficult. You'd want to start out with a mentor to help you learn. There are many pointers in a couple of documents that would be made available to you. We need guides. People are waiting too long.

You know if you have the time and the interest to take it on. Of course, you'd start with just one client and a mentor to help you.

Let me know what you decide.

Thank you!

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your message. Ok, really looking forward to answering some of these questions. Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on any of these - I have a relatively short time window today due to work and some houseguests.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The idea of a "self" that controls and directs life is an illusion. It's a stream of thoughts, bodily sensations and reactions to these phenomena. We are an expression of the universe and are not separate from it. There aren't any decisions or choices we make independently, and we don't exist as separate from this universe.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self for me manifests as a stream of self-referential thoughts and associated tightness/sensations in the body. It's often associated with an impulse to do something or satisfy a craving. It's also subtly expressed alongside thought streams (or a running series of thoughts) when I'm feeling indignant about something or feeling like things could or should be a certain way. It's usually in opposition to the way things are. For example, there were recently some policy changes at my work that I found (and find) somewhat vexing. When I consider how justified I am to be annoyed by these changes, I feel a tension in the back of my head and chest and a stream of thoughts that can sometimes sweep my attention away like a daydream. I might complain about things to a coworker or my wife. This is what it's like for me to go from an awareness of no-self to a more selfy posture (although of course the self still doesn't exist - it's just thoughts and behaviors).

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

All the "selfy" feelings and sensations are still here, although they're more often seen as an illusion and are less frequently indulged/followed. Seeing this, and focusing on the here and now, is associated with a sense of ease and peace. I feel slightly corny saying this, but I feel like an expression of the universe, the same universe that is expressing everything else.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

While waiting to speak to a guide, I had a very powerful glimpse (prompted in my opinion by my own meditation practice as well as reading two of the recommended books from LU), but continued to second guess my experience due to the expectation that I would always be aware of this no-self state. When I was having a difficult day or feeling frustrated, I took this as evidence that maybe I hadn't seen things clearly or that I wasn't able to truly live this experience. After speaking with Ilona, I realized what was happening. I basically just needed to relax and get used to the sense of self still emerging as well as all the other uncomfortable and selfy feelings/sensations/thoughts. A day or two after speaking with Ilona, everything kind of quietly clicked.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Just like the self, decisions are not separate from the rest of the world, causes and conditions. It may seem like that. This morning, I felt like I decided to get coffee from a cafe down the street. In truth, this "decision" could not have been otherwise, and was due to an infinite number of prior conditions.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

I think of intention very similar to decision. Any sense of "me" intending to do anything is an illusion. It's all happening due to a nearly infinite number of causes and conditions. It sometime feels like I consciously intend to eat healthier food, for example, but there's no "me" to deliberately intend - it's the movement of the universe and life and couldn't be any other way.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

To me, this is similar to the above two questions. Free will is the sense that there's a spirit-like presence making decisions and managing life independently of the world. To me, this requires and is enmeshed in the belief in a self. A separate self would have free will (as the self would somehow be separate from the rest of the universe/life), and anything with free will would have a separate self. Today I exercised, and it felt like there was a decision being made to exercise, however in truth it couldn't have happened any other way. This idea used to freak me out, but now that I don't believe in free will, it's actually extremely freeing. It's harder to be arrogant or judgmental when free will is seen as an illusion.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Similar to the above - I'm not free to choose anything. If I decide to select a superhero, and I pick spiderman, there really wasn't a choice. I couldn't have said batman or superman given the state of my being at that moment, which wasn't chosen or selected.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Similar to the above. It may feel like "I'm" in control of various aspects of my life, however, it's just happening and it couldn't end up any other way than it does. There's no control - it's just life happening. In this moment, due to conditions related to the state of my body/mind and the world, this post is being written in what feels like a deliberate manner, however that's an illusion. It's like one of those kinetic movement sculptures where the marble rolls through different structures. Just like the marble lacks control, so do we.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I conceive of the world as similar to a giant marble sculpture of infinite complexity :) The Buddhist teaching of causes and conditions comes to mind - nothing is outside of this, so there's no free will, control, etc., just like a marble couldn't roll up a ramp (without something else going on like a magnet, etc.).

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This is a really good question and I'm not sure how to answer. Although there's no self and everything is just happening, I try to cultivate a posture of kindness, generosity and non-violence in my thoughts and actions. This can only happen in the moment. I understand it's an illusion that "I" can control this, but as an expression of the universe I feel compelled to behave civilly towards all other expressions of the universe, as we're ultimately the same mysterious and fascinating existence.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing other than my heartfelt gratitude for all the amazing work being done here. It's helped me SO much. Of course, if it seems like I'm missing or misunderstanding anything, I'm very open to feedback! And I'd absolutely be honored to guide if it seems like I'm clear enough.

Thanks!

Steve

Good evening,

Your replies are good.

There might be a question about this part:

I understand it's an illusion that "I" can control this, but as an expression of the universe I feel compelled to behave civilly towards all other expressions of the universe, as we're ultimately the same mysterious and fascinating existence.

Where is this "I" that "understands?" or "feels compelled?"

You're welcome. It seems to be the most valuable & helpful thing I can do. At the same time, if no one ever guided another person, we'd all be fine.

Loving,

Hi Stacy,

You know, something about my answer to that question felt a little off. Thanks for picking up on it!

Where is this "I" that "understands?" or "feels compelled?

There is no “I” to feel compelled or understand. I can’t be responsible for anything because there is no I! Feeling responsible is a thought/sensation pattern like many of the other illusory concepts mentioned in the earlier questions.

Thanks again!

Steve

I have shared this thread with other guides & will get back to you within a few days.