The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The solid edifice that I took to be me went unchallenged for much of my lifetime. However this house of cards came tumbling down when a few brief episodes of clear seeing occurred. I was not a separate individual, in fact there was no separation,just Oneness. Unfortunately ,these insights faded away however what was revealed was an undeniable truth

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to have the heavy burden of being a permanent seeker lifted once and for all. I want to live authentically from the perception of non dual awareness.Perhaps these expectations are to high but they are my truthful goals and time will reveal if I am being realistic or otherwise.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone to guide and support me to the realization that there is no self, and that the tenacious mind will no longer drag me back to the illusion of an inherent self that has previously occurred. I have hopes that a guide would know the spiritual terrain that lies ahead and stand with me when difficulties and frustrations occur.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My spiritual practice has been almost entirely in Zen Buddhism spanning many years. So, lots of meditation and many retreats and also koan practice with a teacher. I started looking into non duality without the framework of zen a few years ago. This has meant reading books and visiting websites of non dual teachers and Ilona's book has led me here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Good morning and thank you for being patient for a month!

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

How will life change?

What LU offers though its guides, has the potential to be life changing, but the nature of change is not known at the outset of this process.

How will you change?

Once again this is an unknown area. If clear seeing emerges from our contact, then change is bound to occur but this is not clear at present.

What will be different?

When the self falls away, I assume life will continue as it does. However, there is a confidence that this life would be deeply affected by finally seeing through illusion. There is wonder and not knowing bound together.

What is missing?

Nondual awareness is missing. Seeing things as they are rather than how the self-interprets life. Living a more authentic life free of the burden of a self and engaging with life unfiltered is missing.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Firstly, thank you Stacy for contacting me, it is appreciated. Please call me Mal and the time zone is GMT+10.00 (AEST). I have read the disclaimer as advised.

Good morning (here is 5:20 am), Mal,

Thank you. Knowing that effects are unpredictable is reasonable.

However this house of cards came tumbling down when a few brief episodes of clear seeing occurred. I was not a separate individual, in fact there was no separation,just Oneness. Unfortunately ,these insights faded away however what was revealed was an undeniable truth

Did the certainty that there is no self only oneness ever really leave?

When the self falls away, I assume life will continue as it does.

There is no "self" to fall away.

Life *has* continued as it does, has it not?

We don't live in some permanent state of "aha." It will always fade away more or less.

Each time we've hit an untrue unquestioned belief, we must LOOK again into whatever arises that seemed to knock you out of awareness. This can go on for years, with most people & usually does. It is rare to see once and be totally aware & done. Even those who do have that experience may feel at some point that they "lost it."

The Work of Byron Katie & other questioning methods are great for this.

All of that being said, yes, we can LOOK here with some pointers & clear seeing a bit more.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & nice never will be?


Loving,

Hello Stacy

Did the certainty that there is no self only oneness ever really leave?

This is difficult to explain with words but here goes. There was a shift from duality to non duality and then over time the reverse occurred. There was an acceptance at the time that both events appeared in Oneness ,how could they not? The certainty of Oneness though has gradually ebbed away over time and now appears as if in a dream that is fixed in memory.

Life *has* continued as it does, has it not?

There is a confidence that life will continue to unfold irrespective of awakening or non awakening.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & nice never will be?

A few glimpses into clear seeing some time ago were accompanied by joy, gratitude and humility. If another occurs if may take a different form as encountering Oneness even briefly seems such a wonderful mystery. The proposition that there never was a self when considered carefully brings up regret that a fictional character hurt people.

Good morning, Mal,

Thank you for your answers.

Yes, when we run into any untrue, unquestioned beliefs, or awakening can seem to skip away. The Work of Byron Katie & other questioning methods are great for getting through this.

It's v always a little b different, but joy, gratitude & humility are quite frequently experienced.

fictional character hurt people.

More true that a fictional character *seemed* to hurt another fictional character & everybody believed this lie. So, they may never wake up to see the truth that nothing really happened & no one was really hurt. They could, though, and so can you.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Much love,

Hello Stacy
Firstly, thanks for your comments regarding my reference to a fictional character, it was helpful to read this.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification

.

You have asked me, as I understand the question, to pay attention to Direct or Actual experience through the agency of the senses. You have also asked me if further clarification is required about this particular process. Well, I would like more information about how to engage with this process as the past few hours has demonstrated that focus is difficult to maintain.

Good morning!

Firstly, thanks for your comments regarding my reference to a fictional character, it was helpful to read this.

You're welcome.

I would like more information about how to engage with this process as the past few hours has demonstrated that focus is difficult to maintain.

More information will not help. That's just more content of thought. If that worked, you'd be seeing already. It doesn't work.

Instead, we will do more experiential explorations called "pointers." You can read examples of these in the dowoad "Gateless Gatecrashers" available free under Resources, Books on this site. It's one of very few readings that may help.

Here is a chance to show that you understood about Colored Socks and LOOKING, rather than thinking to answer here.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

Hello Stacy

You have asked me to purposefully notice the following list of senses as I go about daily activities.
Seeing , smelling , feeling , tasting , hearing , thought.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like this one above please.

I am not sure how detailed this description should be but I will provide a broad example as you did mention simple.

Making a sandwich.
Seeing. Seeing the shape and colour of ingredients together with a plate , knife and cutting board.
Smelling. The smell of bread and cheese.
Feeling. Touching the ingredients , feeling the texture and temperature.
Tasting. The taste of bread and cheese in my mouth.
Hearing. Hearing the sounds of preparing a sandwich. Hearing myself chewing.
Thought. The thought of having a cheese sandwich for lunch.

Reading a newspaper.
Seeing. Seeing the paper, seeing the colours and reading the content.
Smelling. Could not identify a smell.
Feeling. Touching the paper, turning the pages, feeling the texture.
Tasting. Did not taste.
Hearing. Hearing the sounds of the pages being turned.
Thought. The thought arose to read the newspaper.

Good morning,

Basically, yes.

But putting your observations in backwards order gives them a different meaning. You're not meant to pick a sense and then go find something that fits it. You are meant to notice what's happening and see which sense is arising.

Can you see how that is a bit different?


Loving,

Can you see how that is a bit different?

Hello Stacy
I am puzzled by your email. You instructed me to list “exactly” the list of senses that you provided presumably in the same order. So I described two activities exactly in the order of the example you gave. I seem to have misinterpreted either your instruction or your intention. I would like to complete this particular exercise properly to gain the most benefit from it, but once again more clarification is required.

Okay, let me try again.

You are meant to notice the Actual Experience in something you are doing and list it exactly like the examples.

You gave it backwards the first time, not exactly like the example. This has the effect of emphasizing the opposite of what we are looking at.

Do you notice how

Brushing my teeth simply = Sensation or Touch

is different from

Touching. Brushing my teeth.

are different?

In the first you are noticing something, then finding out what the Direct Experience is. In the second, you are naming a Direct Experience, then listing something as an example, rather than starting with something you are currently experiencing. The practice is to learn to notice in everyday experience what is DE and what is not.

If you still can't see the difference, let's not belabor it. We can move on to another pointer and look differently.

Much love,

Hello Stacy
Here is another try.

Grinding spices. Smell
Sitting at computer. Glare (seeing)

I would like to take up your suggestion to move on to other pointers if you feel this is appropriate.

Regards Mal

Good morning, Mal,

The point is to notice what is Direct Experience and what is made up.. This next exercise gives 3 ways to look at something.

Fruit Exercise

Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat. For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit…..feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.

Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference. Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.

Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible.

Write about it here.

What was the experience like?

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:

1. Imaginary fruit

2. Real fruit

3. Description


Loving,

Hello Stacy
You asked the following questions.
1 Imaginary Fruit
2 Real Fruit
3 Description

Write about it here.

What was the experience like?

1. Imaginary fruit

It proved difficult to bring a focus to this exercise of imaginary fruit eating. It was elusive and fuzzy and I was unsuccessful in my attempt to replicate an experience of eating fruit with the imagination.

2 Real Fruit

The apple was firm, white and juicy and there was a subtle apple smell when held close to the nose. There was an audible snap accompanying the first bite with juice running down my chin. This was followed by crunchy noises as I masticated the piece of flavoursome apple until it was ready to swallow. This was repeated many times until the apple was reduced to a core held by sticky fingers.

3 Description

As earlier described, the imaginary fruit eating exercise was surprisingly difficult, and I failed to engage the imagination in the various aspects of eating fruit. Really eating fruit was easier to engage in and notice the experience than imagining the experience. There was a stark and compelling difference between the real and imagined. Reality was defined by direct experience where the senses were fully engaged to confirm the reality of the eating real fruit.
Regards
Mal