The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand there is no real self as a personality or an I . But rather an awareness that is seeing itself, that is ever present, unchanging.
An awareness that was /is present in every moment.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would so love to be guided to stay longer in that place of awareness ,the Now.
I feel my life is calling me to do so, as I just fell on my head, broke my right arm...and found myself powerless to do much.
I want to deepen my presence.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really have any expectations , only a feeling of excitement maybe mixed with a slight fear...a curiosity and genuine desire to be more present.
I feel I get stuck sometimes in a mind that tries to understand what Awareness is but know I won't find it in my mind.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a spiritual seeker al my life. Have given intuitive readings for 30 years, led workshops, retreats and courses.
I have been to various masters, stayed in an ashram (1.5 year) , trained in many alternative therapies and spiritual practices. Meditate daily, practice breath work and listen to masters daily.
Done the work of Byron Katie for 23 years and guide others in it too.
At the moment I am also in a soul art school, self inquiring through art.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi Malika (?)

Here is what I expect from you if I am going to guide you:

• You post every day if only to show that you're still in.
• I'm not a (spiritual) teacher. I can only point. You look until it is 100% clear.
• Generally I will put questions. You will look and investigate and answer as honestly as possible from direct experience.
• You answer from simple, direct, natural, honest observation. There are no good or bad answers.
  Extensive analyses, mental gymnastics and philosophical essays will only delay the process.
• Make a fresh start: set aside all accumulated spiritual knowledge during this investigation.
• Don't go to satsangs or even watch them on video. If you practise meditation or yoga: by all means continue.
• Learn to use the quote function

If you acknowledge to agree to the above and accept me as your guide we can start.

Lex

Hi Lex,
Thank you for your reply.
I agree to your conditions and accept you as my guide.
Do we chat here ? Is this the way it works here ? or do people chat live?
Looking forward to your guidance.
Malika

Hi Malika,

Great.
Let's go.

Conventionally we use this forum thread to communicate. There are other ways, email/Facebook/even live chat, but if it is OK with you we stick to this forum.

I see that you have quite a spiritual resumé. This can help, but just as well can hinder progress. The best is to see this process as something that has nothing to do whatever you have been doing before.
Having stated that, I am curious about this process of self-inquiry through art. What exactly is inquired?

Did you notice and read the links in my first response? Especially the link to this article I can highly recommend.

... a feeling of excitement maybe mixed with a slight fear

What is the fear about?

... desire to be more present

How will that manifest? How will you know that you are more present? You are - can you be more present than that?

I would so love to be guided to stay longer in that place of awareness ,the Now.

Have you tried to escape from now, can you ever be anywhere or any time else than now? How do you know you are "in that place of awareness" or not?

I feel I get stuck sometimes in a mind

Yes, that is the only place where you can be found: in a mind. But don't despair, you're not stuck.

...that tries to understand what Awareness is but know I won't find it in my mind.

Good. That saves a lot of work.


Please answer all questions.

Lex

Hi Lex,
Wow , many questions to reflect upon...
Firstly what is self inquiry through art? it is a process where you set an intention to see, heal, create or investigate something. Maybe like - How can I thrive as an artist? you then through a set of steps you receive symbols (pictures in your mind) without questioning those you create something using those symbols. This then becomes an answer to your inquiry...like you might see that you would thrive if you allowed yourself to make choices based in love instead of fear...ect..It kind of exposes layers or filters that taint the more clear or true perception of what is actually here now.. My main interest in it is that in my intuitive readings I 'see' in pictures, it is a bit like a language. I call it the language of my soul...this is it briefly.

And yes, I read the article. I think I might read it a few times more. As I find that some kind of fog enters my mind as it struggles to understand whilst I know that it isn't my mind that understand it.

... a feeling of excitement maybe mixed with a slight fear

What is the fear about? i think a little voice that suggests that I might lose myself..and it will be boring to not be me

... desire to be more present

How will that manifest? How will you know that you are more present? You are - can you be more present than that?
My experience of presence is one of peace, expansion, an experience of the senses as if they are ripples that touch that silence inside ( kind of a bit hard to explain...) an awareness of all that is around me and in me as sensation and the response to that. A pleasurable feeling , i call it home.
I will know if I find myself longer periods in that space and not lost in mental or emotional dramas.
I can't be more present than present just more time in it... now I seem to be in and out of it. But I do know it is always there and not separate from me

I would so love to be guided to stay longer in that place of awareness ,the Now.

Have you tried to escape from now, can you ever be anywhere or any time else than now? How do you know you are "in that place of awareness" or not?
I think I often escape from the now, but not on purpose but rather through following a thought down a rabbit hole..like trying to analyse or understand everything rationally. Or identifying with a negative emotion till I think it is 'me'.
I can't really be somewhere else than the now but the perception of the moment is clouded by other things that i think are the real me. So i don't feel presence..but rather a stressful something...
I know by the peace I experience, like a soft blanket of silence that falls over me. And I feel I expand

I feel I get stuck sometimes in a mind

Yes, that is the only place where you can be found: in a mind. But don't despair, you're not stuck.

well...here i get lost and i think what only in the mind... ? that could be because of me perceiving it as something negative..the mind. But maybe I should separate that and see mind is not the same as ego or identity which I possibly mix up here.

...that tries to understand what Awareness is but know I won't find it in my mind.

Good. That saves a lot of work.

pheeeuwww...

Thank you Lex ! I already can sense some of the next questions as I write the answers.
Thank you, Malika I ( I am sorry , I think I need to again watch that quote function..I didn't get the quots pink like you did )

Hi Malika,

I’ll answer you tomorrow more extensively.
Just one question for now to see if there already is some alignment:

I already can sense some of the next questions as I write the answers.

What do you suppose will be my next questions and what are your answers?

Hi Lex,
Sometimes as I type an answer I can feel that something in there might not be aligned and then I think it might be a next question.
Maybe like : what is that fog that enters your mind when you struggle to understand awareness ?
or : why do you think it will be boring to not be you?
or: who is responding to the sensation around you ? Is it around you ?
or : what layers taint perception?
or : who are you going to lose?

Then here, I think I misread your answer -

you said : Yes, that is the only place where you can be found: in a mind. But don't despair, you're not stuck
I think I read this differently the second time I read it...meaning the you is in your mind.
First I thought you meant awareness was only found in the mind.

Thank you, Malika

Hi Malika.

First I thought you meant awareness was only found in the mind.

In a way it is: The concept of awareness comes from the mind. One needs the mind to be aware of awareness. But without awareness (in the sense of beingness) the mind would not be possible. I don't know if that makes sense to you. If not: Don't bother, it is not essential for this process.

Yes, that is the only place where you can be found: in a mind. But don't despair, you're not stuck

I think I read this differently the second time I read it...meaning the you is in your mind.

Yes, the you is (or more syntactically correct: you are) a product of the mind. A mere volatile thought. It is this realisation that we are looking for. Not as an idea, but as a clear insight beyond any doubt.

Maybe like : what is that fog that enters your mind when you struggle to understand awareness ?
or : why do you think it will be boring to not be you?
or: who is responding to the sensation around you ? Is it around you ?
or : what layers taint perception?
or : who are you going to lose?

All those questions I will not put, and you don't need to answer. These are all questions about who you are. Here we only investigate what you are, if you are.


Now let's get back to the former post:

Firstly what is self inquiry through art?

Interesting and nice exposé, but it was not my question (What exactly is inquired?), so maybe I have to rephrase it: Can you describe this self that is inquired? What is it's nature? What does it consist of? Look and try to keep it simple.

I read the article.
I find that some kind of fog enters my mind as it struggles to understand

Ok, I'll try to explain in my own words:
Observation of direct experience is our main tool in this process. So not analysis, contemplation or meditation, although one could classify this observation of direct experience as a form of meditation. Just that we do it in everyday life, not while sitting in a lotus position. So you observe what is experienced, preferably during simple actions. Then use the mind to describe the experiences as simple and clear as possible.
The article distinguishes between three categories of experiences, just for practical reasons. And it is complete: every experience is one of these three. Everything that exist is only known through experience.

I might lose myself..and it will be boring to not be me

Don't worry. Nothing will change. You will not lose yourself. You might just see that there is no self to lose.

I will know if I find myself longer periods in that space and not lost in mental or emotional dramas.

There is no guarantee. Drama might even become stronger or nothing changes. This peaceful state is not what we are looking for. We are not looking for any state at all, just a simple insight: "There is no you". States come and go. Insight stays, because it modifies your perspective for ever. Once seen it can't be unseen.

I would so love to be guided to stay longer in that place of awareness ,the Now.

Sorry, can't deliver. This is not the right address for that. What could happen is that life gets less complex, because a lot of ideas about yourself will not be taken seriously anymore, which can cause more peace.


To get a better grip on these three aspects of experience from the article:
Take at least 10 minutes to write down experiences and classify them in one of the categories:
thought - sensations / sensory perception - sense of aliveness
Please report.

Hi Lex,

In a way it is: The concept of awareness comes from the mind. One needs the mind to be aware of awareness. But without awareness (in the sense of beingness) the mind would not be possible. I don't know if that makes sense to you. If not: Don't bother, it is not essential for this process.

I think it does make sense to me.

Yes, the you is (or more syntactically correct: you are) a product of the mind. A mere volatile thought. It is this realisation that we are looking for. Not as an idea, but as a clear insight beyond any doubt.

Yes, I get that the you only exists in the mind..yet of course I do sometimes think ( note think) that it is really me.

All those questions I will not put, and you don't need to answer. These are all questions about who you are. Here we only investigate what you are, if you are.

Ok ,that's clear then...about the questions. Although I am not sure what the difference is here between who I am, or what I am

Interesting and nice exposé, but it was not my question (What exactly is inquired?), so maybe I have to rephrase it: Can you describe this self that is inquired? What is it's nature? What does it consist of? Look and try to keep it simple.

Yes, you did ask that...I related to you saying you were curious about the process.
What is inquired is Truth. What is the Truth within a situation I experience, plus clarity of intention as that seems to create the reality I experience.
I think the idea is that we slowly peel away the layers that blind our light, to expose True essence. In this case True essence also relates to who you are in this life as a human. So maybe here I understand better what you say about investigating what we are instead of who we are.

Everything that exist is only known through experience.

Yes, I understand that.

Don't worry. Nothing will change. You will not lose yourself. You might just see that there is no self to lose.

That would be wonderful.

There is no guarantee. Drama might even become stronger or nothing changes. This peaceful state is not what we are looking for. We are not looking for any state at all, just a simple insight: "There is no you". States come and go. Insight stays, because it modifies your perspective for ever. Once seen it can't be unseen.

Ok, I can see what you are saying ,of course states come and go, I didn't think I won't be in dramas or feelings no more. But not identified with them as thinking these were me. So, i need to let go of the idea that it is peaceful state, by not naming it a state at all ?

Sorry, can't deliver. This is not the right address for that. What could happen is that life gets less complex, because a lot of ideas about yourself will not be taken seriously anymore, which can cause more peace.

ok, and yes to more peace.

Not totally sure if I understand what you ask in this exercise, but here follows what I understand from the description:

Thoughts : when I have a thought that tells me there is something 'wrong' in the now, like that person should behave differently or I don't like that tree, ect..I feel a pain,or anger or frustration. When I feel that pain, ect...I start thinking I am an I. Then I get dragged ( or drag myself) into a thought vortex..till I really think I am an I and I seem forgot I am not.

An other experience of thought I have can be one of clarity...a bit of a feeling of a light going on, and insight happens that then changes my perception. This feel like freedom.
Thoughts to me are like pointers, if they feel unpleasant then they point to the fact I am not in Truth in that moment. I feel then I can choose a better thought , one that feels better (resonates with truth) . A 'better' thought feels like expansion. Like there is more space, lightness and peace.
Also relief i experience sometimes in those moments.

Sensations: the experience of losing smell and taste during having Corona brought to my awareness how much that expanded my life. A whole dimension seemed to be lost then...and sight started taking over. I experienced so much joy when I could smell the first thing after weeks of nothing at all..smell actually brings me into presence. or a deep breath.
I mostly experience life through my senses, I am a highly sensitive person too..so it feels intense to me often.
The intensity of my senses can sometimes totally bring me into to presence.
Hearing of some kinds of music moves me to be the dance instead of the dancer. I then experience what I call Home. A feeling of best described as peace, expansion, presence.
Touch I can feel inside my silence (recently discovered) like a ripple that moves space. Meaning here that I feel it outside and inside at once...like I have no body..just an experience. ( not at the dentist though...haha)
Sight has many dimensions in my life, outer as eyes, inner as 'seeing' and seeing the outside while my eyes are closed. Seeing something of beauty , just like with the other senses can bring me into presence. I then experience gratitude, a feeling of wonder.

sense of aliveness - happens when I have no thoughts. Presence is my most alive experience - I feel I burst of joy, in love with life, myself and everything. A sensual place to me, as the senses are even more heightened then. I feel expanded, in the now, separate at the same time from the Ego torments. I am most passionate about presence , it is my path. or if it isn't my path because there is no I with a path,then there is a desire to be in presence.

Thank you , Malika

Hi Malika

I get that the you only exists in the mind..yet of course I do sometimes think ( note think) that it is really me.

Thoughts containing "I" are no problem. But do you believe them?
Can you give examples of thoughts containing the word "I" and whether you believe them or not?

Although I am not sure what the difference is here between who I am, or what I am

I can explain, but I rather first return the question to you: What is the difference between: "Who am I?", "What am I?" and "Am I?"

I related to you saying you were curious about the process.

You are right. I did. Thank you. My curiosity is well satisfied. Good description.


Now let's get back to the essence.

I think the idea is that we slowly peel away the layers that blind our light, to expose True essence.

This process is the opposite: We attempt to reveil the falsehood of the core, the ego, the I-thought, whereupon the layers will automatically fall off or at least become transparent. If those "layers" exist at all.

True essence also relates to who you are in this life as a human.

What do you mean by that? The role you play in this world? The purpose you have in this life?

But not identified with them as thinking these were me.

What is identification? What identifies with what? And how does that work?

So, i need to let go of the idea that it is peaceful state, by not naming it a state at all ?

There is nothing against a peaceful state. It is just not what this process is aimed at.

I am a highly sensitive person.

Can you see here how this thought creates you?

I will give an example of how I meant the exercise:
Unrest in stomach - feeling
Tree - sight
"I should not forget I have an appointment with the dentist this afternoon" - thought
awareness of being - sense of aliveness
inner peace - feeling
someone enters the room - sensory perception

the Ego torments

What are these? How do they emerge? What is tormenting about them?

there is a desire to be in presence

That can exist with or without the I-concept/sense. As I said nothing will change except for maybe a subtle (but essential) shift in perception and in many cases searching comes to an end.


There are mainly two problems with seeing through the illusion of "I":
- Society and upbringing constantly reinforce the idea that you are a separate individual.
- It is very simple to see, so it is also simple to overlook.


Only thing I can guarantee that when you see it, you'll be surprised that you never saw it and how simple it is. The only reason you didn't see it until now is because your attention is never directed to it. In the contrary, everything in society is drawing your attention away from it.

Hi Lex,

Thoughts containing "I" are no problem. But do you believe them?
Can you give examples of thoughts containing the word "I" and whether you believe them or not?

well...I do believe them sometimes (those thoughts)
I find it hard to make decisions ...mmm I think I believe that but there is a part too that knows that there is an I that has this issue and a presence that knows who doesn't have this issue. Yet these feel like 2 separate parts in me.

I am a woman....same here...I believe it as an experience because I have a body...and I know there is a presence that isn't male or female..or anything.

I am a failure...I believe it again in the I part. When negative thoughts occur I see here that I more strongly or persistently
believe them. Because the I then gathers evidence to proove it's point.

I sit here typing a reply...I believe that

I am just human...I don't believe that

I do notice a little shift here...by looking at the thoughts I notice that awareness is there ( a little in the back round though)

I can explain, but I rather first return the question to you: What is the difference between: "Who am I?", "What am I?" and "Am I?"

who am I ? who I am as a body, so I am Malika,woman,ect...what do I do, age, ect...
What am I ? I am awareness having an experience of being a Malika
Am I ? mmm...do I exist ?

This process is the opposite: We attempt to reveil the falsehood of the core, the ego, the I-thought, whereupon the layers will automatically fall off or at least become transparent. If those "layers" exist at all.

Yes, I understand. Just been on the opposite path I think..the one of peeling the layers.

What do you mean by that? The role you play in this world? The purpose you have in this life?

Yes, I mean purpose, your roll, how you serve. Where our passions/interests in this life time come from

What is identification? What identifies with what? And how does that work?

For me identification means my focus shifts to a thought and i start connecting more thoughts to it, gathering evidence that this thought is true, this then becomes a vortex that pulls me deeper into it. And more thoughts follow...and then possibly negative emotion. Then I have become a false self..I am not aware of awareness anymore but more of the lie that I am that I, that this thought defines me.
The emotions then make it all even more real...( I differentiate between emotions and feelings, emotions product of a thought, as feeling being an experience in presence or arising from presence)

I am a highly sensitive person.

Can you see here how this thought creates you?

Find that hard to understand when I get a migraine from hell..because there is low air pressure. Or sleep badly at a full moon...or sense a person and they call me a minute later. So not sure here how to look at that- maybe just that awareness is experiencing itself in a Malika body?
.

I will give an example of how I meant the exercise:

irritation -thought
pain in my broken arm - sensory
joy- feeling
bliss- feeling
stillness- presence
intuition- feeling of awareness ?
my job sucks - thought

What are these? How do they emerge? What is tormenting about them?

Ego torments are thoughts that try and tell you that you are an I. especially mean negative persistent ones that cause pain, fear, frustration. Which seem to disconnect me from noticing awareness.

Thanks again, Malika

Hi Malika,

irritation -thought
pain in my broken arm - sensory
joy- feeling
bliss- feeling
stillness- presence
intuition- feeling of awareness ?
my job sucks - thought

You got it. And "intuition" is indeed a strange one. I would more consider it a label for a direct experience of something intuited. For example "sense a person (and they call me a minute later)" - intuition.
The idea of the exercise is to learn to observe and describe direct experience, which is our primary tool.

who am I ? who I am as a body, so I am Malika,woman,ect...what do I do, age, ect...
What am I ? I am awareness having an experience of being a Malika
Am I ? mmm...do I exist ?

In two cases you explain the questions, which was the intention, but in the case of "What am I?" you supply an answer. Let's look at that idea:
"I am awareness" - You are aware, yes, experiences/perceptions arise, but does that mean that you are awareness? How do you know? Can you really know that? Or is it something you just picked up in your spiritual journey and it resonated, so you incorporated that in your set of ideas? Be honest.
"having an experience of being a Malika" - what kind of experience is that? What does the label "Malika" point to?

For me identification means my focus shifts to a thought and i start connecting more thoughts to it, gathering evidence that this thought is true, this then becomes a vortex that pulls me deeper into it. And more thoughts follow...and then possibly negative emotion. Then I have become a false self..I am not aware of awareness anymore but more of the lie that I am that I, that this thought defines me.
The emotions then make it all even more real...

Wow, well observed and beautifully defined.
Is someone doing this whole process of identification? Is there someone or something that can stop this process or interfere with it? Or does it stop by itself after some time?

I am a highly sensitive person.

Can you see here how this thought creates you?

not sure here how to look at that

Just look at that thought. What do you see? Suppose it is somebodies else's thought. And did you notice you immediately came with proof?

Which seem to disconnect me from noticing awareness.

Is that a problem? Need awareness to be noticed?

Ego torments are thoughts that try and tell you that you are an I

You seem to distinguish between "I"-the ego (not you) and "I"-awareness (the real you). Can you see that both are concepts of the mind?

I think I believe that but there is a part too that knows that there is an I that has this issue and a presence that knows who doesn't have this issue. Yet these feel like 2 separate parts in me.

Do you see how complicated the ego makes it to untangle it? Master of obfuscation.


Love your motivation, you are doing very well,

Hi Lex,

You got it. And "intuition" is indeed a strange one. I would more consider it a label for a direct experience of something intuited. For example "sense a person (and they call me a minute later)" - intuition.

Thanks, I like the simplicity of this , using it as a label.

In two cases you explain the questions, which was the intention, but in the case of "What am I?" you supply an answer. Let's look at that idea:
"I am awareness" - You are aware, yes, experiences/perceptions arise, but does that mean that you are awareness? How do you know? Can you really know that? Or is it something you just picked up in your spiritual journey and it resonated, so you incorporated that in your set of ideas? Be honest.
"having an experience of being a Malika" - what kind of experience is that? What does the label "Malika" point to?

What am I ? I am , might be the only answer I can sense here. As when I add anything to I AM it again defines me and then I am separate again from I Am -Ness.
Do i know I am awareness ? I know there is a well being, a stillness ,a spaciousness...in words I call that presence or awareness. I am that and sometimes I am not noticing I am that. Because I have been in and out of it , but it is there. An eternal now-ness could be an other name. I only know it through experiencing it.

Do I really know that ? mmmm..I know it in a moment I look or listen to the sea and I become the sea...but then I notice that a thought of doubt also creeps in..if I really, really know that.

I do resonate with - I am awareness...on some deep feeling level. Possibly picked it up as an idea too in my spiritual journey.
The experience of being Malika means to me that through my form the perception of lets say a tree might differ than that an other form looking at the same tree. And therefore awareness experiences itself through many many different perceptions at the same time. All a bit different. ( as if with different lenses).
The label Malika points to me that I am a unique form ( a lens) and that I am having a human experience.

Wow, well observed and beautifully defined.
Is someone doing this whole process of identification? Is there someone or something that can stop this process or interfere with it? Or does it stop by itself after some time

Thank you, I notice a thought of happiness here.
It isn't someone doing the process of identification, when I look I can only find it in my mind.
The mind can stop it..by choosing at the first thought that is triggering a negative response, to choose an other thought, a 'beter' thought and feel how that one feels. Or to stop thinking for a moment and return to the silence inside.
It is also possible that it stops by itself after some time, but it could take a while...or a lifetime in some cases.

Just look at that thought. What do you see? Suppose it is somebodies else's thought. And did you notice you immediately came with proof?

When I look at it I see it forms an identity and yes , now you say it I can see that I immediately came with proof which again reinforces the identity that I am an I..( without an am)
And yes I can see now that it then defines me.

Is that a problem? Need awareness to be noticed?

well, it isn't a problem merely a desire. Awareness doesn't need to be noticed as it is there, but not noticing it creates a feeling a disconnection and like something totally essential is missing.

You seem to distinguish between "I"-the ego (not you) and "I"-awareness (the real you). Can you see that both are concepts of the mind?

mmm...i can see that ego is a concept of the mind, and with awareness I find that not so clear. I can see there is thought that says there is real me..and the thought happens in that what I call the real me...I think I shall contemplate this a bit more.

Do you see how complicated the ego makes it to untangle it? Master of obfuscation.

yes, I see. And I do have pretty strong persistent mind who wants to untangle and understand everything.

Love your motivation, you are doing very well,

Thank you again Lex...phhheewwww...

Hi Malika,

Concepts are the stuff the mind is made of. Words points to concepts. If I say:"car" or "cat" or "red", it evokes a concept in your mind.

Do i know I am awareness ?

So look at what the words "I" and "awareness" summon up. What comes to mind?
Answer for both "I" and "awareness", please.

The mind can stop it..
...
It is also possible that it stops by itself

What is the difference? Is there a difference?

Hi Lex,

So look at what the words "I" and "awareness" summon up. What comes to mind?
Answer for both "I" and "awareness", please.

What comes to mind with I - me,self, ego,identity,personality,pride,thoughts, smallness, separation,definition,boundaries, want,claiming,owning

What comes to mind with awareness - knowing, vast like an ocean, timeless, now, presence, black panther, love,experience, endless,alive,peace, silence,bliss, seeing, expansion,freedom, breath

What is the difference? Is there a difference?

The difference is that the first option seems like a conscious choice,so it is active.
of course one wonders then who is making this choice ? It looks Like the mind is guiding the mind to a better/kinder place.
Maybe it is clarity that the thought creates the I and a choice to stay present in the now.

The second option seems passive like one is just watching the thought pass, till it disappears.
and who is the one watching then ? it is awareness experiencing a thought passing in it and not identifying with it.
Which is clarity too.
Then both options lead to not identifying with I as a separate entity.

Hope I understood what you are asking, thanks, Malika