The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The goal is to see through the the person I usually assume is "me" and who seems to be the doer of my life. It appears that there is no inherent "self", only an imagined one, constantly created/supported by the mind.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help and support to be able to completely see though the illusory "me", rather than it being just a concept. I have had short glimpses over the past few months, which have given me a certain confidence to continue the enquiry. I very much resonated with Ilona Ciunaite, when I heard her talk, and I look forward to going deeper into this enquiry.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that I will be gently guided with helpful questions to finally see through the "me" that I have believed all my life to be who I am. I hope that through questioning and feedback, I will be able to pierce through the illusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have followed Christian and Buddhist traditions, and have also been to various non-duality meetings online and in-person for the last few years. The non-duality "path" seems to be more direct, and I have had some small breakthoughs.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi Calvin,

and welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

I very much resonated with Ilona Ciunaite, when I heard her talk, and I look forward to going deeper into this enquiry.

Ilona is not available right now, but I can walk with you and see where the inquiry is taking you if that's ok?

We will simply have a conversation. I will ask you many questions - that's my job here. And yours is to look in your direct experience and write what feels true at this moment as you see it now. Never relay on memory, on what you've been read and listen on this subject. Nothing from these is important and nothing from these is going to give the freshenss and aliveness of your own seeing.

We are looking into the direct experience using our 5 senses + thought. But not what is thought about,i.t we are not interested in a thought content at all.

For the time of this investigation I would suggest that you leave aside all the information regarding this subject, also don't read other threads here in the forum. Rather focus on your own direct immediate experience.

Can we agree on that?


So, reading all above let's start by looking at these questions:

What do you expect from the realisation that there is no separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What you hope to be different?


Take your time and reply each question separately using quote function
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

Thank you for your reply and for agreeing to work with me.

Ilona is not available right now, but I can walk with you and see where the inquiry is taking you if that's ok?

I am delighted that you will be walking with me. Thank you so much.

For the time of this investigation I would suggest that you leave aside all the information regarding this subject, also don't read other threads here in the forum. Rather focus on your own direct immediate experience.

Can we agree on that?

Of course, no problem.

What do you expect from the realisation that there is no separate self?

Well, from the short exeriences I have had with this inquiry, there seems to be a relaxation into just being and relief, so I imagine that this would become my moment by moment experience. Other than that, I don't know, except from what I have heard from others, but I prefer not to imagine others' experiences.

How will life change?

I don't know. I can only imagine :-).

How will you change?

I don't know.

What you hope to be different?

I would hope to have less anxiety around the "me" and it's problems and needs, and to feel more connected to 'others' and stop living in the mind.



With love and appreciation,

Calvin.

Hi Calvin

I am delighted that you will be walking with me. Thank you so much.

Lovely, you are most welcome :-)

Thanks for answering the questions regarding expectatons. It’s important because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss the obvious because is expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.
From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.
Many of us have the impression that seeing through the illusion of a separate self will come with some special pop and will be accompainied with such a qualities like peace, calmness, relax and no painful emotions... But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.

Our main goal with this investigation is that you see experientially (not only on the intellectual level) that the I, me, Calvin do not exist as a separate entity in reality at all. All our efforts will be in this direction. Here (in the forum) you are not going to find "happily ever after” or seeing no self is not going to give you some super power. It is just the simple fact that there is no I, me, self here to be found; no I, me, self will be found, because none on these have ever existed.

Well, from the short exeriences I have had with this inquiry, there seems to be a relaxation into just being and relief, so I imagine that this would become my moment by moment experience. Other than that, I don't know, except from what I have heard from others, but I prefer not to imagine others' experiences.

It's good that you see this with "other's experiences". We all pick something here and there on the road so to speak, but the truth is that no one knows how it will be..
And "relaxation into just being and relief" may or may not happen. No one can say in advance, for each one is different.

Еmotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of further looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of this lifetime. Seeing no - self is the first step, just the begining. And the personality stays almost intact.
We all want to live in peace and with very less painful emotions - that’s natural for us as human beings.
But old traumas, hidden wounds, existential crisis are not going to disappear with a magic stick, just because the self is seen through.
Actually freedom is not from, but WITH.

How will life change?

I don't know. I can only imagine :-).

Yes, The self cannot imagine what would be without a self...it can only imagine what it want for itself.

How will you change?

I don't know.

Does it feels comfortable not to know?
Or you just wrote this without investigating the question?

I would hope to have less anxiety around the "me" and it's problems and needs, and to feel more connected to 'others' and stop living in the mind.

But there is no you even now and still anxiety, problems and needs are happening. Why would these change?
And what if there are no others to connect with?
What if all there is is just this - life living and no separate entity living it?

It will be better to leave all the expectations aside and dive into this inquiry completly fresh.

Please read my comments several times and see your expecrations from a different perspective.

Is there a resistance to any of it?


Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

Thank you for your beautiful response.

How will you change?

I don't know.

Does it feels comfortable not to know?
Or you just wrote this without investigating the question?

I really don't know how I would change, but if there is no "I", then there would be nobody TO change. However, as you said in your reply, the personality doesn't change. But, I am happy with not knowing too.

I would hope to have less anxiety around the "me" and it's problems and needs, and to feel more connected to 'others' and stop living in the mind.

But there is no you even now and still anxiety, problems and needs are happening. Why would these change?
And what if there are no others to connect with?
What if all there is is just this - life living and no separate entity living it?

So, I feel a bit like I've been caught in a trap, as I was asked what changes I hoped for, but in fact there will be no changes, so it seems like it was a trick question :-).
Anyway, it's good to challenge my expectations, and that is what you have done with your reply, thank you. Ultimately, I have been looking for a constant state of peace and happiness, and it's a challenge to see that this will not be the case.

No others to connect with. Again, this is a challenge to imagine that others do not exist. In a way, others reflect back a "me", because there is a need to be liked, appreciated etc.

However, there is a real resonance with the idea of there being no separate entity living life. "Just this" feels true, at least conceptually for the moment.

It will be better to leave all the expectations aside and dive into this inquiry completly fresh.

Yes, that seems sensible. I have no problem with that.

Is there a resistance to any of it?

Yes, there is some resisitance to nothing going to change, and some disappointment I suppose. The wish is that seeing through the "I" will fix everything. But as you say, if there is no "I" already while there is anxiety etc., then logically there is no reason why anything would change on seeing this - just continue to chop wood and carry water, but no "I" doing it I suppose :-).

Thank you so much.

love Calvin.

Hi Calvin,

So, I feel a bit like I've been caught in a trap, as I was asked what changes I hoped for, but in fact there will be no changes, so it seems like it was a trick question :-).
Anyway, it's good to challenge my expectations, and that is what you have done with your reply, thank you. Ultimately, I have been looking for a constant state of peace and happiness, and it's a challenge to see that this will not be the case.

:-) There is no intention here to put you in trap ... only to see the expectations from a different perspective
Constant state of peace is and happiness is a common one, but with no evidence in reality.
Because seeing no self is not a state to abide in. And all states are subject to change. Life/this/exisence/reality - has a room for everything, nothing is excluded. Happiness may arrise, and so sadness. The buffet of life offers everything it's just not you who chooses :-)

However, there is a real resonance with the idea of there being no separate entity living life. "Just this" feels true, at least conceptually for the moment.

I'm glad to read that there is a resonance,,,which means that there is an openness to hear, see and investigate what is here. We will dive deeply into this.

Yes, there is some resisitance to nothing going to change, and some disappointment I suppose. The wish is that seeing through the "I" will fix everything. But as you say, if there is no "I" already while there is anxiety etc., then logically there is no reason why anything would change on seeing this - just continue to chop wood and carry water, but no "I" doing it I suppose :-).

Thank you for sharing this with me. Resistance is a normal defending reaction, Something resists to something. We will search to find what precisely and is there anything at all? If stronger resistance shows up again, or fear - just share with me.

And yes, chop wood and carry water goes on. Paradoxically nothing is changed, but everything feels different.

Let's start investigating the thought, and thinking process.

Sit for a while, 5-10 min are ok. Just sit and observe the thoughts.

There may be various type of thoughts - we are not interesting in their content. Just observing how thoughts are passing and investigate these questions:


Tell me what do you do precisely in order to think?

How do you make a thought into existence?

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?


The questions are simple, don't approach them intellectually. Take your time.
Investigate questions many times during the day, not just once or twice. Look with curiosity.

Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

Happiness may arrise, and so sadness. The buffet of life offers everything it's just not you who chooses :-)

I love this. It takes the pressure off trying to create positive states.

I'm glad to read that there is a resonance,,,which means that there is an openness to hear, see and investigate what is here. We will dive deeply into this.

Yes, there is, and I'm looking forward to diving deep :-).

Tell me what do you do precisely in order to think?

There's nothing I need to do to think. It happens automatically, and most of the time I'm not really aware that it's happening.

How do you make a thought into existence?

Thoughts arise seemingly out of nowhere. Thoughts cannot be brought into existence, only followed.

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

As far as I can tell, there is no destination for thoughts, they just seem to simply disappear.

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

No, thoughts appear spontaneously from nowhere. I cannot trace their source.


Thank you :-)

Love Calvin

Hi Calvin,

I love this. It takes the pressure off trying to create positive states.

I am smiling :-)

There's nothing I need to do to think. It happens automatically, and most of the time I'm not really aware that it's happening.

You did a good looking.
Let's see this:

Does "it happen automatically" means that no one is doing it?
If yes -
Who or what can be aware if no one doing the thinking?

Thoughts arise seemingly out of nowhere. Thoughts cannot be brought into existence, only followed.

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

As far as I can tell, there is no destination for thoughts, they just seem to simply disappear.

There is a contraduction in your reply, so let me ask again.


Does "As far" and "seem" mean that there is a possibility to follow a thought?
And how "following a thought" is experienced exactly?
As a sound, as an image, as a sensation?
Or as imagination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

No, thoughts appear spontaneously from nowhere. I cannot trace their source.

:-) Another good looking.

Let's check this

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

Thank you :-)

You are most welcome.

Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

Does "it happen automatically" means that no one is doing it?
If yes -
Who or what can be aware if no one doing the thinking?

I don't know what or who is aware, but there is awareness of thoughts and thinking doing their own thing, without a doer, a bit like breathing. It's just happening. I could say "I" am aware of thoughts, but that would just be another thought. It's like there is an experiencing of thoughts, like the experiencing of hearing. Thinking is happening, hearing is happening, and there is an awareness of these senses.

Does "As far" and "seem" mean that there is a possibility to follow a thought?
And how "following a thought" is experienced exactly?
As a sound, as an image, as a sensation?
Or as imagination?

Very good question. There appears to be an interest in certain thoughts, and not in others. And the thoughts that get that interest appear to come back more frequently. There is a mechanism of some sort. But I don't know who or what follows thoughts. Again, I could say "I" follow thoughts, but that doesn't make any sense, because when I look, this process happens automtically and is seen. Who would be interested and why? I would say that maybe conditioning and memories of past experiences might play a role in following certain thoughts, such as an addiction to certain anxious or pleasurable thoughts.

So when a thought arises, depending on its nature, there may be contraction or relaxation in the body; there may be feelings of joy or of fear. Then, there may be a belief in the thought or resistance to it, in which case the feelings and sensations are continued until there is distraction, or a focus on something else. With belief or resistance, there can be imagining of a terrible or beautiful future (or past regrets). There may be fantasy or fear being imagined.

But what drives this process I don't know. It's a mystery. It appears that at times thoughts can be paused, and the focus can be moved. At other times, it seems impossible to move away from a strong thought.

I would like to uncover this mystery because mind appears to drive life and decisions.

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

I have looked into this a bit before, and I can see that thoughts don't have any power of their own, so a thought definately cannot think. A thought is just energy arising. In fact, as I write, it seems that thinking is not really a process, but just a series of related thoughts arising, a bit like the old cinema film reels, that when viewed in series, they make a story.

I am always very excited to see your replies. I really appreciate your guidance, thank you.

With love and appreciation,

Calvin.

Hi Calvin,

I don't know what or who is aware, but there is awareness of thoughts and thinking doing their own thing, without a doer, a bit like breathing. It's just happening. I could say "I" am aware of thoughts, but that would just be another thought. It's like there is an experiencing of thoughts, like the experiencing of hearing. Thinking is happening, hearing is happening, and there is an awareness of these senses.

Look at how language creates a story of someone who is breathing. who is aware, who is experiencing...
Look also - Is there an "it" which rains?

So when a thought arises, depending on its nature, there may be contraction or relaxation in the body; there may be feelings of joy or of fear. Then, there may be a belief in the thought or resistance to it, in which case the feelings and sensations are continued until there is distraction, or a focus on something else. With belief or resistance, there can be imagining of a terrible or beautiful future (or past regrets). There may be fantasy or fear being imagined.

But what drives this process I don't know. It's a mystery. It appears that at times thoughts can be paused, and the focus can be moved. At other times, it seems impossible to move away from a strong thought.

Yes, all this is a common belief.

But notice - can a thought be touched? Be seen, tasted, smelled, heard?
Can someting which cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled, heard to do anything at all?
What happens to the story with imagining future or past regrets?

I would like to uncover this mystery because mind appears to drive life and decisions.

What is mind when you observe it here now?
How mind shows up at experience?

I am always very excited to see your replies. I really appreciate your guidance, thank you.

You are most welcome. There is a joy here as well :- )

Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

Look at how language creates a story of someone who is breathing. who is aware, who is experiencing...
Look also - Is there an "it" which rains?

Yes, the "I" is added on top of what is already happening. Raining just happens; there is no "it" to rain, it's just a way of talking as our language insists on the use of pronouns - IT is sunny, IT is cold, I am digesting my food. But of course, when examined, there is no "it" or "I" that do could these things, they just happen naturally.

But notice - can a thought be touched? Be seen, tasted, smelled, heard?
Can someting which cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled, heard to do anything at all?

When I look at this, I see that thoughts cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelt or heard. Thoughts have no real characteristics to speak of. They arise as images and words, as a kind of narrative. There may be a reaction in the body by way of feelings and emotions. But the thoughts themselves do not have any power to do anything. They are just energy arising randomly.

What happens to the story with imagining future or past regrets?

Do you mean the story of Calvin? When imagining future or past regrets, the story of "me" feels real and the sense of "I" can be strong - what "I" did or didn't do, or what "I" should or shouldn't have done, or what will happen to "me" if this or that happens in the future. The story of Calvin becomes embellished by imagining past or future.

What is mind when you observe it here now?
How mind shows up at experience?

To me, mind is just a word to describe a space that thoughts appear in, so when there are no thoughts appearing, you could say that there is no mind. There can be triggers in daily life that provoke certain thoughts to arise, such as anger or sadness. For example, if I see injustice on the TV (not that I have one) then anger may arise, and thoughts about how bad the world is, and a story is created, apparently, in the mind. But in reality, there are just thoughts appearing.


Yesterday there was a period where I was thought-less, not much going on, except the senses experiencing, and there was just peace with no sense of time, just being. There was some clarity about the sense of a "me", and how it is just a big fat story with no substance. And then last night and this morning, I felt/feel a kind of mourning for the Calvin character, with a lot of compassion for all the struggle he has had trying to be happy. There are tears coming as a write. All the efforts that he made to be liked, to be successful, to be secure, have come to this; just being here now. There is nothing that he did that made him happy for very long. And it was all for this ficticious charater. There is sadness and relief at the same time. I am just going to sit in this for a while and if anything else comes up today I may post again.

Thank you so much for supporting me on this journey.

Much love and apprceiation.

Calvin.

Dear Luchana,

I hope you are well. While waiting for your response, I decided to look more into thinking. From the LU book, oage 243:

The thinking process

If I am waiting for thoughts, they don’t tend to come so easily. It’s like the mind finds an opportunity when I am occupied to sneak in. And because I am busy doing something, the narrative plays in the background. It’s a bit like when mother is preparing dinner, and the children take advantage by doing naughty things while they are out of sight. In general, thoughts are on the negative side, especially this morning. Un-checked, thoughts can escalate into a full-blown story, causing bodily sensations. This can lead to more thoughts about the sensations, and resistance to all of it.

Is there a thinker?

If I look, there is no thinker, but there is awareness of the thoughts, including the thought of a thinker.

Is there a reader?

There is reading, but a reader cannot be found.

To what do these thoughts arise?

There is just awareness of the thoughts. The problem is when the thoughts include a thinker, which gives the impression of the thoughts being thought, identification with a thinker. When there is no identifcation with a thinker, thoughts appear in indescribable space.

I look forward to your reply.

love Calvin.

Hi Calvin,

sorry for the delay - I was driving these two days and it was difficult to write.
Your willingness to inquire is great! You also did a very good looking at thoughts.

I am not going to reply to all of your answers - hope that is ok. Will focus on some from your first message and than the second :-)

the story of "me" feels real and the sense of "I" can be strong

How exactly is the real story of "me" experienced?
Where is seen, heard, smelled, sensed, tasted the sense of "I" ?
In the head?
In the body?
In the fridge?

To me, mind is just a word to describe a space that thoughts appear in, so when there are no thoughts appearing, you could say that there is no mind. There can be triggers in daily life that provoke certain thoughts to arise, such as anger or sadness. For example, if I see injustice on the TV (not that I have one) then anger may arise, and thoughts about how bad the world is, and a story is created, apparently, in the mind. But in reality, there are just thoughts appearing.

Can the space where thoughts appear in be seen?

Would you go to the wardrobe. I mean literally.
Go to the wardrobe, open it and observe for a while clothes that are in there.
Touch them with your hands, feel the different textures, look at the colours...

Can it be seen "thoughts appear in a space called mind" in the same way?

Yesterday there was a period where I was thought-less, not much going on, except the senses experiencing, and there was just peace with no sense of time, just being. There was some clarity about the sense of a "me", and how it is just a big fat story with no substance. And then last night and this morning, I felt/feel a kind of mourning for the Calvin character, with a lot of compassion for all the struggle he has had trying to be happy. There are tears coming as a write. All the efforts that he made to be liked, to be successful, to be secure, have come to this; just being here now. There is nothing that he did that made him happy for very long. And it was all for this ficticious charater. There is sadness and relief at the same time. I am just going to sit in this for a while and if anything else comes up today I may post again.

Oh, thiis is beautiful, including the sadness and the tears. Yea it's sad when a child realise that there is no Santa...there is a seeming loss. But nothing is lost realy. There never was a Santa exactly like there never was Calvin.
Just look how beautifully meaningless is everything. This heavy baggage called "my life" can be dropped.

And a relief is a good sign :-)

Much love
Luchana

Dear Luchana,

sorry for the delay - I was driving these two days and it was difficult to write.

No problem at all. I'm just so happy that you reply so often, thank you :-).

Your willingness to inquire is great! You also did a very good looking at thoughts.

Thank you. Still a way to go I think.

the story of "me" feels real and the sense of "I" can be strong

"How exactly is the real story of "me" experienced?"

Good question. The real story of me? Well, when there is belief in it, there is pain and suffering and stress. No story, then no pain, just ease.

Where is seen, heard, smelled, sensed, tasted the sense of "I" ?
In the head?
In the body?
In the fridge?

Haha, yes, mostly in the fridge and a bit in the cooker, lol. Seriously, when "I" thoughts arise, then contractions are sensed in the body (head and back), and "I" is added to everything - I am stressed, I feel tired etc. When the "I" is looked for, it is not seen, heard or sensed.

Can the space where thoughts appear in be seen?

The last time I looked it was in the fridge with the "I" :-). No, not at all. Space is probably the wrong word. It's more like mind is the name for a collection of thoughts, with no physical appearance or space needed.

Would you go to the wardrobe. I mean literally.
Go to the wardrobe, open it and observe for a while clothes that are in there.
Touch them with your hands, feel the different textures, look at the colours...

Can it be seen "thoughts appear in a space called mind" in the same way?

Very curious. Thoughts are a mixture of images and words. They appear in and around my upper-body area it seems, but this is very vague.

Just look how beautifully meaningless is everything. This heavy baggage called "my life" can be dropped.

And a relief is a good sign :-)

OMG I love your words "beautifully meaningless", "dropping the baggage of 'my life'". This is music to my ears. Just reading these words and feeling the resonance brings much relief, thank you. No need to fight with life.


Have a wonderful evening / day.

love Calvin.

Hi Calvin,

Thank you. Still a way to go I think.

Yep, we go deeply into looking what is here, instead of thinking. There is a difference, a huge one :-)
Thinking about this is a dead end.

Haha, yes, mostly in the fridge and a bit in the cooker, lol. Seriously, when "I" thoughts arise, then contractions are sensed in the body (head and back), and "I" is added to everything - I am stressed, I feel tired etc. When the "I" is looked for, it is not seen, heard or sensed.

You did a good observation.
Let's check this also:

Does the contraction in the body (in the head or in the back) says "Hi, I am the sense of I?
Does the contraction suggest in any way that it is the sense of an I?
What is it that says " This is the sense of an I"?
When you observe the sensation (contraction) without referring to what thought is saying about it - what is it?
Isn't is just a sensation in the body?

Very curious. Thoughts are a mixture of images and words. They appear in and around my upper-body area it seems, but this is very vague.

Let's make a simple exersice and explore how it is at experience , just follow the steps and do each one literally.

Can you close your eyes for a while and think about a spoon.
Imagine that you are holding a spoon in your hand.
Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Look and feel at ​the imaginary spoon for a while.Then open your eyes .

What happened to the spoon?

is there a spoon here, in real life?

Now go to the kitchen and take a REAL spoon. Hold it in your hand and experience it fully - its form, its size, its weight, its temperature.

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?

Does a THOUGHT of a spoon makes the spoon REAL?

OMG I love your words "beautifully meaningless", "dropping the baggage of 'my life'". This is music to my ears. Just reading these words and feeling the resonance brings much relief, thank you. No need to fight with life.


Have a wonderful evening / day.

This brings joy :-)
Have a beautiful day too.

Much love
Luchana