The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that person that we think of as ourselves is actually a construct of the mind. It is made up of thoughts, constructed with memory – past actions, learnings, assumptions, etc. We associate ourselves with these strings of events, feelings, assumptions that we experienced over time. LU helps guide one beyond intellectual understanding.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for help. I understand that intellectual understanding is not true knowledge. Something else has to happen – I’ve heard it be referred to as “seeing” or “looking” or “experiencing that knowledge.” I’m looking for a guide who can help me experience my true nature – to see beyond the construct of mind created “self.”

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Through these conversations, I am hoping I will get insight in how to look into myself to uncover the untruth of the “self.” Perhaps a set of exercises, or ways to look into oneself, and conversations that will help see the falsehood of the mind created self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been studying and assimilating non-dual philosophy close to 3 years now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for the reply! And thank you for assisting me with my inquiry. My name is Chinni.

Can we agree on these?

Yes, most certainly.

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?

I thought a lot about this question… I don’t think I have an idea of what the realisation will look like. In fact, I am not sure who will realise. I understand that the person, “self”, that is seeking realisation right now is not true. So, when realisation does happen, I’m not sure to whom it happens and how/what it will look like.

What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?

I hope to find a sense of “coming home.” A sense of deep peace – brought about by the falling away/cessation of the incessant thoughts that are concerned with the self. A sense of being able to interact with this world without being tainted by self’s biases, ideas, assumptions and selfishness.

What would stay the same?

I don’t know this for sure, but I expect that my life will continue to play out as it is meant to and expected to play out. I will continue with my obligations towards family and work. Life will unfold as it was always meant to unfold, events will happen, experiences felt. But these experiences will be more authentic, the interaction with life and others in it will be more authentic.

What you do not want to happen?

This is another question I spent a lot of time on… When I think about what I do not want to happen, I find that it is all the things the “self” is afraid of letting go… Fear of “will I still be motivated and find meaning in my work?”, “will I still want to take care of the self?”

But a part of me understands that this fear is unfolded and that whatever it is that has let the universe and me flourish will continue to do that with or without me. So, I should have no expectation of what will and what will not happen and trust that what needs to will happen and that I should leave my self’s fears out of it.

So, to answer your question, there are things rooted in my self’s fear of loss of control that I do not want to happen…but it is a fear that I’m working to overcome.

I look forward to your reply.

Many thanks!
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

Thank you for the reply! And thank you for assisting me with my inquiry. My name is Chinni.

You are welcome Chinni :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I hope to find a sense of “coming home.”

But who or what would come home if there is no entity coming home? :)

A sense of deep peace – brought about by the falling away/cessation of the incessant thoughts that are concerned with the self.

This is a pretty big expectation. It’s highly unlikely that thoughts about the self or even thoughts about concerns about the self will stop appearing.

Seeing that there is no separate self is not about not having thoughts about the self. It’s about seeing that those thoughts are about a fictitious character… so there is no real self behind those thoughts.

But just because this is discovered, why would the thoughts about the self stop? There has never ever been a self behind those thoughts, and yet, those thoughts have been there all along.

Freedom is not about getting rid of certain thoughts.
Freedom is to see that those thoughts are just thoughts about a mythical character. There is no real entity behind them.

A sense of deep peace –

Realisation of ‘no inherent self’ does not automatically bring about constant peace and contentment, or a change in the seeming person. This exploration has got nothing to do with that. It is simply about realising that the self who suffers and believes they are in control of life, doesn’t exist. Decades of beliefs and conditioning that goes with those years, won’t disappear overnight. Realisation of 'no self' may happen, but then the undoing of the compilation of the self that seemingly suffers starts to happen, and this undoing takes time. What this means is that peace and contentment will be sporadic…they will come and go, as will clarity. It takes time for shifts to integrate.

There will be times of clarity and many times of uncertainty, confusion and doubt. This is all normal, but constant peace and contentment when realisation happens…does not happen. It will take time, and no one knows how long that is, it is different for everyone.

When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.

A sense of being able to interact with this world without being tainted by self’s biases, ideas, assumptions and selfishness.

This also a pretty big one. Seeing that there is no separate self won’t eradicate a life-long conditionings, beliefs and biases. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
When I think about what I do not want to happen, I find that it is all the things the “self” is afraid of letting go… Fear of

“will I still be motivated and find meaning in my work?”, “will I still want to take care of the self?”

The self doesn’t need to be taken care of, since there is no self. But you might have meant the body here.
There is already no self, and yet the body is taken care of.
There is already no self, and yet motivation and finding meaning in work have happened all along.

Why would these change? It’s not that currently there is a real self and this self will be annihilated… not at all. There has never ever been a self in the first place, so there is nothing to cease to exist.

So, to answer your question, there are things rooted in my self’s fear of loss of control that I do not want to happen…but it is a fear that I’m working to overcome.

But who would lose control? You see this is based on the belief that there is an inherent self currently, and this self has control, and this self could lose control. But what if there has never been a self in control, ever?
What if this control has been just an illusion all along?

It’s not about losing control. It’s about discovering that there has never been a self to be in control, ever.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I'm trying to see the best way to arrange my reply so it's easy to follow. Hopefully the following works - arranging by order of your questions:

Q: Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Yes, most decidedly, yes!


Q: Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

It’s important, because every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now.

Yes, I see this. Thank you for this insight. I will work on dropping my expectations.

Seeing that there is no separate self is not about not having thoughts about the self. It’s about seeing that those thoughts are about a fictitious character… so there is no real self behind those thoughts.

Then who creates these thoughts, if it’s not the self?

But just because this is discovered, why would the thoughts about the self stop? There has never ever been a self behind those thoughts, and yet, those thoughts have been there all along.

But isn’t the self a driving force behind the thoughts? I/self have desires… and I/self think about all the ways I can achieve those desires… I/self make plans to execute to try to fulfill those desires… So, doesn’t the self create the thoughts?

But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.
Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

I see.

There is already no self, and yet motivation and finding meaning in work have happened all along.

Could you please help me with understanding this? I understand that the self is not real; however it was the idea I had about myself, about my interests, and what I wanted to do in life that drove me to pursue a career in a particular field – even if those ideas were based on something imaginary and unreal, weren’t these career goals born from that unreal self? And if that is invalidated, doesn’t it invalidate the interests and desires that appeared to come from it?

But what if there has never been a self in control, ever?
What if this control has been just an illusion all along?

Wow!...Please help me experience this! :)

Q: Is there any resistance to any of it?
I do not have any resistance. I’m open to wherever this discovery may take me and to correct my incorrect knowledge.

Q: Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Yes, please!

Thank you!
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

Then who creates these thoughts, if it’s not the self?

This is a good question, and we will investigate this deeply.

But isn’t the self a driving force behind the thoughts? I/self have desires… and I/self think about all the ways I can achieve those desires… I/self make plans to execute to try to fulfill those desires… So, doesn’t the self create the thoughts?

How could an illusion create anything? It’s like saying that the mirage in the desert could create water. :) we will look at this. For now, just notice that your question actually is a statement. You are stating that there is a creator of thoughts. So the question is based on a belief/assumption.

It’s very common that our questions are based on beliefs… and instead of checking our questions for beliefs, we are too busy to try to find answers. We are going to do the opposite.

Could you please help me with understanding this? I understand that the self is not real; however it was the idea I had about myself, about my interests, and what I wanted to do in life that drove me to pursue a career in a particular field – even if those ideas were based on something imaginary and unreal, weren’t these career goals born from that unreal self? And if that is invalidated, doesn’t it invalidate the interests and desires that appeared to come from it?

This question also based on an assumption :) which is that when the self seen to be an illusion, all the story, all the thoughts about the self will disappear. It won’t. Just as the mirage in the desert won’t disappear when you discover that it’s just a mirage and not an oasis.

Wow!...Please help me experience this! :)

Yes :) But it’s important to mention that I can only give you pointers and questions to look at, but you are the one who has to do the work. You have to investigate your immediate experience. The more time and effort you put into this, the greater the chances to see through the self illusion.

All right, let’s start it then :)

We are only ever going to look at our immediate experience.
So we are going to look at what is here now.


Let’s look at what looking is.

1. Looking can only ever happen here and now. Right now, in this very moment. It’s never about a remembered memory. It’s never a just thinking, but looking at directly what is actually (literally) here now.

2. Looking is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation in the present moment, right now.


3. Also, we can notice the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Just simply noticing thoughts as phenomena as they appear. This is how we look at thoughts.

4. However, focusing on what thought is saying, what it’s about, what the content is, is NOT looking. Although, this is what we are the most familiar with. We are predominantly focusing on the thought content, the story it tells, instead of noticing it just as an appearing phenomenon.


5. The content of a thought is an IMAGINED EXPERIENCE. It’s not a real experience, it’s just a mental representation of it.

6. Any theory, interpretation, speculation, theory, philosophy are contents of thoughts, in short, just intellectualization. Intellectualization can only ever result in gaining more theoretical knowledge, but it cannot lead to a first-hand experiential recognition.


7. Looking is a shift from focusing on thoughts to noticing the direct experience of the 5 senses and the arising of thoughts in this very moment.

Make sure that this is very clear, since this will the bases of our inquiry. If you have any doubts or questions about this, just let me know.

Sit for about 10-15 minutes and just notice:
What is actually here?

1. Colours and shapes
2. Sounds
3. Tastes
4. Smells
5. Sensations (coming from touching something, or noticing the bodily sensations or feelings that are present in the body).
6. Thoughts. A thought can appear as a pictorial/visual thought, like imagining an apple. It can appear as an auditory / verbal thought, like the word ‘apple’. Auditory thoughts can appear as a voice or a tune of a music, or an imagined sound of a car or a person.
Most of the time, thoughts tell a story, often accompanied by a ‘mental movie’ with a ‘soundtrack’ of the story :)

Could you please give examples of each of these points?

Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?

Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?


Please be very thorough with this, since this is the base of our investigation to see what is here now, and what is just a thought content, a story.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.

For now, just notice that your question actually is a statement. You are stating that there is a creator of thoughts. So the question is based on a belief/assumption.

Yes, I see what you are saying here… I am making an underlying assumption here…I see that now..

Just as the mirage in the desert won’t disappear when you discover that it’s just a mirage and not an oasis.

That is a very good point…

Could you please give examples of each of these points?

I tried this a few times today… and I am writing about the one that I found most interesting..

I sat down on my sofa and looked directly ahead of me.. I could see the room in front of me. I noticed:

1. Sights: the brown colour dining table and 4 chairs around it, the pale yellow coloured wall in front of me, the window in front of me, the green leaves on a tree beyond that, brown branches, bluish sky visible through the gaps in the leaves and branches, the tan carpet in the room, the light fixture above the table

2. Sounds: The surrounding was mostly quiet, with some occasional chirping of birds and sound of car moving outside, the ticking of a wall clock

3. Tastes: There wasn’t much in this area… perhaps what one would describe as a neutral taste.

4. Smells: There was some faint aroma from breakfast earlier in the day, I could detect a faint scent of the detergent used on my clothes

5. Sensations: I could feel the areas of contact my body was making with the sofa, I could feel some strain on my facial muscles, I could feel my breathing, the feel of clothes on my skin, the feel of tongue in my mouth, I could feel my throat muscles anytime I swallowed, I could feel some strain in my neck.

6. Thoughts: Anytime I became aware of a sensory input, the word or concept describing that sensory input would come into mind – table, chair, window, detergent, clock, etc. And in many cases, those concepts would feed other thoughts – perception of scent of detergent fed into a remembered visual about loading the washing machine.

In some cases, I could just observe the thought appearing, in other cases, I would get caught up in their story…but I would catch myself and return to observing the thoughts. I started to notice that many of these thoughts appeared random… in other words, I was not sure why those thoughts arose. This time, when I was doing the exercise, I briefly drifted off to sleep (just few minutes)… but I was still aware of the thoughts. And when I woke up, it felt as though the thoughts continued flowing from when I was awake into when I drifted out to sleep and back to wakefulness. But what was different, was that the randomness of the thoughts increased in the brief moment I was asleep and something that would judge the thoughts as “valid” and “invalid” was absent in that period….

Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?
Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?

There is a sense of being alive, being sentient, being able to understand what the thoughts/concepts mean.

Looking forward to your reply.

Thank you,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,
You did a really nice investigation :)

Thoughts: Anytime I became aware of a sensory input, the word or concept describing that sensory input would come into mind – table, chair, window, detergent, clock, etc. And in many cases, those concepts would feed other thoughts – perception of scent of detergent fed into a remembered visual about loading the washing machine.

This is an excellent observation. So there is the raw experience, and thoughts jump in and interpret, label, judge and tell a story ABOUT the experience. Can you see this clearly?

There is a sense of being alive, being sentient, being able to understand what the thoughts/concepts mean.

So, we can say that there are these 6 aspects (colour, sound, taste, smell, sensation + thought) and these are all known, there is the knowing or awareness of them, right?

Now, we have to look at the difference between experience and the thought narration ABOUT experience. Seeing this clearly is essential.

Generally speaking, we can say that there are two distinct world or realms:
- the realm of direct experience,
- and the world of thoughts and ideas ABOUT experience.

But we, most of the time, are confused by the two, unknowingly mixing them, imagining that experience is what we THINK it is.

Mistaking conceptual rendering of reality FOR reality is the source of human suffering, and also the source of the belief in being a separate self.

So let’s start to looking into this.

Sit somewhere alone for about 15-30 minutes and just simply feel into the experience what we call ‘breathing’.

Just notice all that is present; the incredibly rich array of experience that constitutes what we call ‘the breath’.

Now, notice whatever concepts, thoughts, interpretations are generated in the mind ABOUT the experience of breathing (what it is, what are its qualities, how it works, what it’s for, etc. – all the description and explanation about it).

Notice all the labels and categories applied to it (like cold, warm, shallow, superficial, depth, quick, slow, stressful, peaceful, etc.) – including the names we give to the experience (like the name/label ‘breathing’).

What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?

And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?

As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?

Just notice, the rich array of experience appears independently of its thought based description, just as the description doesn’t interfere with the experience itself.

Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?

The experience and the thought story ABOUT it existing parallel, side by side, without meddling with each other.

Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?

Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?

Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?

Please experiment with this several times before replying. From now on, please spend a whole day with each post, looking at the same thing again and again. It’s all about repeated investigation of your experience in any given moment.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for the reply. I will spend time experimenting with this exercise and will reply in a day.

Best Regards,
Chinni

Great :) please be thorough, but playful

Hello Vivien,

Hope you have been well.

So there is the raw experience, and thoughts jump in and interpret, label, judge and tell a story ABOUT the experience. Can you see this clearly?

Yes. I’m starting to see that.

So, we can say that there are these 6 aspects (colour, sound, taste, smell, sensation + thought) and these are all known, there is the knowing or awareness of them, right?

Yes, there is the knowing of perceptions and knowing of thoughts

What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?

Because you had mentioned some of the concepts involved in breathing, every time I would start this exercise, those concepts would first come up. Then, when I would settle in and focus on my breathing, the labels – “slow”, “quiet”, “diaphragm breathing” would come to mind.

And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?

I could feel the stomach expanding and contracting with each breath, I could feel the breath moving into my nostrils – I could feel one of them more active than the other, I could feel a feeling of relaxation – thoughts slowing down, rate of breathing slowing down,

As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?

Yes, this is the first time I’ve noticed that – or even become aware that such a thing is actually possible. I tried to apply this many times throughout the day and I could see that the thoughts were arising through some catalyst brought about by some perception, but that the thoughts themselves appeared to be independent of the experience itself. The experience would have happened whether the thought arose or did not arise. Thoughts can create emotions which are then experienced, but thought themselves are separate from the experience. Thoughts appear to put the experience into contextual terms.

Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?

Yes, true.

Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?

True… the thoughts are learned concepts to describe the experience.

Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?

Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?

True. Thoughts are a simplified representation of an experience


It's been a really interesting exercise and it made me pause and see somethings that I hadn't noticed before. Thank you for that pointing! I look forward to your next reply and pointing!

Best Regards,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

You did a nice investigation :)

Thoughts appear to put the experience into contextual terms.

Exactly! This is an important discovery. Since most of the time we are not ‘dealing with’ experience directly, but our conceptual interpretation or abstraction of them. We are lost in fluffy, concepts lala-land :)

We looked at that our experience comprises of those 6 aspects (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation + the knowing the presence of a thought).

Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

Please spend a whole day investigating this.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thanks for the reply. I think I’m having trouble with this one…

Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

So, in my day-to-day activities, it’s hard to have the discernment of thought vs. experience. I operate from a sense of “I” that is within me. In the sense that, “I” need to prepare for the day, “I” need to do this, do that, call this person, fix this thing, etc. Everything seems to be centered around an “I”. It feels like the “I” is real and is in control…

Best Regards,
Chinni

Hi Chinni,

Everything seems to be centered around an “I”. It feels like the “I” is real and is in control…

OK. So where is this I that is real and is in control?
Where exactly?
Please tell me the exact location of it.

Spend a whole day looking for this I. Make sure that you don’t just say that it’s the body or it is in the body. Rather find the exact physical location of it.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

OK. So where is this I that is real and is in control?
Where exactly?
Please tell me the exact location of it.

When I close my eyes and look for it, I have no point of reference… so, there is no exact physical location for it… but it seems like the sense of I is diffused in my entire awareness…

Best Regards,
Chinni