LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is just one consciousness shaping itself into apparent separate entities. My thoughts are not ‘mine’ and I’m a fictional character immersed in this illusion. I see the One being, life or source as an author writing all the script for all thoughts and conversations, and ‘I’ is the character experiencing the apparent one role.
What are you looking for at LU?
Deeper practical and lasting understanding of the no self. Community of others dedicated to the same path. Being fearless in ‘my’ expression and not letting my mind control my actions. My main intention is to go beyond feelings of powerlessness, superiority/inferiority and not not being good enough. I’m also looking for friends I can speak to within the oneness/no time and space paradigm.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Space of deeper looking, deeper than I’d do by myself. I’d like the guidance helped me to see beyond my mind interference. And I’d like to experience a lasting paradigm shift in the way I see the world. I’d like to know how to remember who I am and who I am not.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I did meditation for 20 years, studied transpersonal psychology, 20 years self development and self undevelopment, some psychedelics, and all that jazz. Then I did an Iboga ceremony and saw for the first time there was no past and no future, it lead me to work with Katie Byron. Since ‘I created’ some inquiries and had miraculous moments of seeing beyond my self images and stories.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11
Liv Unbound
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi,
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.
This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.
I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.
I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?
When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?
Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.
Vivien
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.
This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.
I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.
I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?
When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?
Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Vivien,
Thank you so much for your message! I’m feeling so grateful for your willingness to support me in this! Yes, I agree on posting daily or at least every other day or letting you know that I won’t be able to.
My expectation about no-self realization:
There will be ‘nobody’ who can get hurt. So the character Olivia will be fearless and kind despite of some situations that would previously threaten her identity of a good person. I imagine it would feel like watching a movie with ‘me’ in it, still having emotions but enjoying them rather than feeling ashamed of them and make them mean that I’m somehow not good enough. I also expect that if the personal self is not present, it would put an end on pleasing people, trying to get their love, approval and security. And there would be no ‘mind movies or images or internal voices’ reminding me of the past hurts or predicting the future of how stuck and alone I will be if I don’t manipulate a situation by acting like a victim or a superior. I won’t believe any of those, so I will be able to see things and people as they are without putting a story on top of them. I will be free to ask for anything.
What benefits I expect:
I would be fearless and say what I want to say without feeling inappropriate. I would stop avoiding painful situations so I’d be freer to experience more of life. I would connect with others from the space of love rather then needing their love or likes. The inaudible voice would stop telling me I’m powerless or not good enough, so I’d stop comparing to others and fully accept this character as she is. I would loose judgments about people and situations, so I’d experience love and joy most of the time. I also expect to stop smoking weed as a tool for anxiety.
What would stay the same?
The character Olivia would still continue being in her story, she would still experience life through ‘her’ senses and awareness, she would still experience emotions to some degree but wouldn’t take it personally. (So I imagine it would feel like watching a movie and enjoying all the emotions because it’s not really about me).
What you do not want to happen?
I don’t want to be disappointed if this won’t be possible for me.
Thank you so much for your message! I’m feeling so grateful for your willingness to support me in this! Yes, I agree on posting daily or at least every other day or letting you know that I won’t be able to.
My expectation about no-self realization:
There will be ‘nobody’ who can get hurt. So the character Olivia will be fearless and kind despite of some situations that would previously threaten her identity of a good person. I imagine it would feel like watching a movie with ‘me’ in it, still having emotions but enjoying them rather than feeling ashamed of them and make them mean that I’m somehow not good enough. I also expect that if the personal self is not present, it would put an end on pleasing people, trying to get their love, approval and security. And there would be no ‘mind movies or images or internal voices’ reminding me of the past hurts or predicting the future of how stuck and alone I will be if I don’t manipulate a situation by acting like a victim or a superior. I won’t believe any of those, so I will be able to see things and people as they are without putting a story on top of them. I will be free to ask for anything.
What benefits I expect:
I would be fearless and say what I want to say without feeling inappropriate. I would stop avoiding painful situations so I’d be freer to experience more of life. I would connect with others from the space of love rather then needing their love or likes. The inaudible voice would stop telling me I’m powerless or not good enough, so I’d stop comparing to others and fully accept this character as she is. I would loose judgments about people and situations, so I’d experience love and joy most of the time. I also expect to stop smoking weed as a tool for anxiety.
What would stay the same?
The character Olivia would still continue being in her story, she would still experience life through ‘her’ senses and awareness, she would still experience emotions to some degree but wouldn’t take it personally. (So I imagine it would feel like watching a movie and enjoying all the emotions because it’s not really about me).
What you do not want to happen?
I don’t want to be disappointed if this won’t be possible for me.
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
What name would you like me to call you? Olivia? Or something else?
I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.
Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
You have some pretty big expectations. Almost all of them are about changing the character, wanting to become a different person. So in essence, most of your expectations are about self-improvement.
But this inquiry is not about changing your personality, becoming a better or a different person. It’s about seeing if there is a person, a separate entity at the core of these expectations and desires.
If there is actually someone done desiring for all these changes.
When there is fear, unpleasant emotions, or any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.
The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.
Feelings of shame is the result of emotional wounds… and not simply because it’s believed that there is a separate self. These things won’t dissolve overnight. Looking at and feeling into the emotional wounds can happen AFTER the self is seen through… and that takes time. Often years.
Pleasing people happens NOT because there is a personal self present now. Pleasing others is a habitual pattern stemming from an emotional wound, probably from childhood.
The self is not something that is present now, and it can be annihilated by this inquiry. No.
This inquiry is the discovery that there has never ever been a self at the core.
So there is nothing to cease to exist; rather it’s the recognition of the fact that there has never been a separate self in reality.
There is nothing wrong with the mind movie or the narrative. It’s only seem to be problematic when it’s believed that the mind movie is about a real person, a real Olivia… and not just a simple movie.
I won’t believe any of those, so I will be able to see things and people as they are without putting a story on top of them.
This is also very unlikely. Your comments are full of wishes and desires on behalf of the imaginary character, called Olivia. It’s like wishing for a character in a cartoon to have a different life, different feelings, different personality. But it’s not about trying to change the mirage in the desert to become a different mirage.
A mirage is a mirage. It’s not real.
There is no point it trying to make the mirage into a different mirage. In any case there is no water or oasis there. No matter how much you try to change it.
Please look at this with full honestly. What is it that you really want? Do you want to become a different person, or would you like to see that you are just trying to adjust and approve an illusion, a mirage only?
The character Olivia would still continue being in her story, she would still experience life through ‘her’ senses and awareness, she would still experience emotions to some degree but wouldn’t take it personally.
Olivia is not real. She is the mirage. A mirage cannot experience anything. A mirage cannot take things personally. It might seem that she can, but that is just part of the illusion/mirage.
What I can help you with is to discover this for yourself.
This guiding is about deconstructing the idea of a ‘me’ in order to see what you are not, as what you are is not definable or findable. It is to notice what is actually here, what is actuality of experience as opposed to what thought says and describes as being here. You have to be willing to disregard everything you think you already know and be here with a curious, willing and open mind.
This exploration is a beginning and not an ending. Generations of misperceptions, learned knowledge, and a life time of accumulated beliefs and conditioning do not fall away overnight when realisation happens. What begins is the undoing of these misperceptions that keep us yo-yoing between clarity and confusion. How long this undoing takes is different for everyone. Expectations of overnight change when realisation happens can be problematic as the shift in perception can be quite subtle, and can be missed as there are expectations of what should happen, how it should look, feel and be.
Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Vivien
What name would you like me to call you? Olivia? Or something else?
You are welcome :)Thank you so much for your message! I’m feeling so grateful for your willingness to support me in this!
I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.
Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
You have some pretty big expectations. Almost all of them are about changing the character, wanting to become a different person. So in essence, most of your expectations are about self-improvement.
But this inquiry is not about changing your personality, becoming a better or a different person. It’s about seeing if there is a person, a separate entity at the core of these expectations and desires.
If there is actually someone done desiring for all these changes.
Dear Olivia, there is already nobody there to get hurt. And never have been. The one that is seemingly can get hurt is just the fiction of imagination. Just an illusion, like a mirage in the desert.There will be ‘nobody’ who can get hurt.
Just because it’s seen that there is no real self at the core, it doesn’t automatically follow that the fictional character called Olivia will drastically change.So the character Olivia will be fearless and kind despite of some situations that would previously threaten her identity of a good person.
When there is fear, unpleasant emotions, or any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.
The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.
OK… it’s might not clear right now, but the one how imagines that will be able to watch the movie is the same illusional self that needs to be seen to be a fiction only.I imagine it would feel like watching a movie with ‘me’ in it, still having emotions but enjoying them rather than feeling ashamed of them and make them mean that I’m somehow not good enough.
Feelings of shame is the result of emotional wounds… and not simply because it’s believed that there is a separate self. These things won’t dissolve overnight. Looking at and feeling into the emotional wounds can happen AFTER the self is seen through… and that takes time. Often years.
There personal self is ALREADY not present. It’s never have been. Ever.I also expect that if the personal self is not present, it would put an end on pleasing people, trying to get their love, approval and security.
Pleasing people happens NOT because there is a personal self present now. Pleasing others is a habitual pattern stemming from an emotional wound, probably from childhood.
The self is not something that is present now, and it can be annihilated by this inquiry. No.
This inquiry is the discovery that there has never ever been a self at the core.
So there is nothing to cease to exist; rather it’s the recognition of the fact that there has never been a separate self in reality.
This is a pretty big one. The chance for mind movies and internal monolog to stop is less than winning the lottery. And it’s not needed.And there would be no ‘mind movies or images or internal voices’ reminding me of the past hurts or predicting the future of how stuck and alone I will be if I don’t manipulate a situation by acting like a victim or a superior.
There is nothing wrong with the mind movie or the narrative. It’s only seem to be problematic when it’s believed that the mind movie is about a real person, a real Olivia… and not just a simple movie.
I won’t believe any of those, so I will be able to see things and people as they are without putting a story on top of them.
This is also very unlikely. Your comments are full of wishes and desires on behalf of the imaginary character, called Olivia. It’s like wishing for a character in a cartoon to have a different life, different feelings, different personality. But it’s not about trying to change the mirage in the desert to become a different mirage.
A mirage is a mirage. It’s not real.
There is no point it trying to make the mirage into a different mirage. In any case there is no water or oasis there. No matter how much you try to change it.
These all about self-improvement. These can be worked through by therapy or other modalities. But this investigation is not about changing the mirage. It’s about discovering that the mirage is not a real oasis. It’s just a play of light.I will be free to ask for anything. I would be fearless and say what I want to say without feeling inappropriate
I would stop avoiding painful situations so I’d be freer to experience more of life. I would connect with others from the space of love rather then needing their love or likes
This is the same desire to become a different person. I’m not really sure that you are really looking for to see that there is no real person believing all of this.The inaudible voice would stop telling me I’m powerless or not good enough, so I’d stop comparing to others and fully accept this character as she is. I would loose judgments about people and situations, so I’d experience love and joy most of the time. I also expect to stop smoking weed as a tool for anxiety.
Please look at this with full honestly. What is it that you really want? Do you want to become a different person, or would you like to see that you are just trying to adjust and approve an illusion, a mirage only?
The character Olivia would still continue being in her story, she would still experience life through ‘her’ senses and awareness, she would still experience emotions to some degree but wouldn’t take it personally.
Olivia is not real. She is the mirage. A mirage cannot experience anything. A mirage cannot take things personally. It might seem that she can, but that is just part of the illusion/mirage.
What I can help you with is to discover this for yourself.
This guiding is about deconstructing the idea of a ‘me’ in order to see what you are not, as what you are is not definable or findable. It is to notice what is actually here, what is actuality of experience as opposed to what thought says and describes as being here. You have to be willing to disregard everything you think you already know and be here with a curious, willing and open mind.
This exploration is a beginning and not an ending. Generations of misperceptions, learned knowledge, and a life time of accumulated beliefs and conditioning do not fall away overnight when realisation happens. What begins is the undoing of these misperceptions that keep us yo-yoing between clarity and confusion. How long this undoing takes is different for everyone. Expectations of overnight change when realisation happens can be problematic as the shift in perception can be quite subtle, and can be missed as there are expectations of what should happen, how it should look, feel and be.
Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Olivia is fine.What name would you like me to call you? Olivia? Or something else?
What I really want is the truth. There is also an inner voice that says: 'And I also want Olivia to be more true to herself to suffer less.'Please look at this with full honestly. What is it that you really want? Do you want to become a different person, or would you like to see that you are just trying to adjust and approve an illusion, a mirage only?
And I start seeing how that useless expectation about trying to change the fictional character is in the way of seeing more..
I've been trying to change her all my life and I'm now ready to go beyond.
yesPlease, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
The expectations I had made me laugh. I never realized that there were so many, mostly trying to improve ‘me’. I really see how they are in the way of me being open to seeing or discovering something unexpected.Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
I also noticed that they are just thoughts and future images of ‘myself’ playing out in the mind, even voices telling me those things how my awakening should look like lol.
No.Is there any resistance to any of it?
I’m ready!Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Thank you so much!
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
All right, let’s start it then :)
We are only ever going to look at our immediate experience.
So we are going to look at what is here now.
Let’s look at what looking is.
1. Looking can only ever happen here and now. Right now, in this very moment. It’s never about a remembered memory. It’s never a just thinking, but looking at directly what is actually (literally) here now.
2. Looking is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation in the present moment, right now.
3. Also, we can notice the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Just simply noticing thoughts as phenomena as they appear. This is how we look at thoughts.
4. However, focusing on what thought is saying, what it’s about, what the content is, is NOT looking. Although, this is what we are the most familiar with. We are predominantly focusing on the thought content, the story it tells, instead of noticing it just as an appearing phenomenon.
5. The content of a thought is an IMAGINED EXPERIENCE. It’s not a real experience, it’s just a mental representation of it.
6. Any theory, interpretation, speculation, theory, philosophy are contents of thoughts, in short, just intellectualization. Intellectualization can only ever result in gaining more theoretical knowledge, but it cannot lead to a first-hand experiential recognition.
7. Looking is a shift from focusing on thoughts to noticing the direct experience of the 5 senses and the arising of thoughts in this very moment.
Make sure that this is very clear, since this will the bases of our inquiry. If you have any doubts or questions about this, just let me know.
Sit for about 10-15 minutes and just notice:
What is actually here?
1. Colours and shapes
2. Sounds
3. Tastes
4. Smells
5. Sensations (coming from touching something, or noticing the bodily sensations or feelings that are present in the body).
6. Thoughts. A thought can appear as a pictorial/visual thought, like imagining an apple. It can appear as an auditory / verbal thought, like the word ‘apple’. Auditory thoughts can appear as a voice or a tune of a music, or an imagined sound of a car or a person.
Most of the time, thoughts tell a story, often accompanied by a ‘mental movie’ with a ‘soundtrack’ of the story :)
Could you please give examples of each of these points?
Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 elements?
Is there anything that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?
Please be very thorough with this, since this the base of our investigation to see what is here now, and what is just a thought content, a story.
Vivien
All right, let’s start it then :)
We are only ever going to look at our immediate experience.
So we are going to look at what is here now.
Let’s look at what looking is.
1. Looking can only ever happen here and now. Right now, in this very moment. It’s never about a remembered memory. It’s never a just thinking, but looking at directly what is actually (literally) here now.
2. Looking is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation in the present moment, right now.
3. Also, we can notice the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Just simply noticing thoughts as phenomena as they appear. This is how we look at thoughts.
4. However, focusing on what thought is saying, what it’s about, what the content is, is NOT looking. Although, this is what we are the most familiar with. We are predominantly focusing on the thought content, the story it tells, instead of noticing it just as an appearing phenomenon.
5. The content of a thought is an IMAGINED EXPERIENCE. It’s not a real experience, it’s just a mental representation of it.
6. Any theory, interpretation, speculation, theory, philosophy are contents of thoughts, in short, just intellectualization. Intellectualization can only ever result in gaining more theoretical knowledge, but it cannot lead to a first-hand experiential recognition.
7. Looking is a shift from focusing on thoughts to noticing the direct experience of the 5 senses and the arising of thoughts in this very moment.
Make sure that this is very clear, since this will the bases of our inquiry. If you have any doubts or questions about this, just let me know.
Sit for about 10-15 minutes and just notice:
What is actually here?
1. Colours and shapes
2. Sounds
3. Tastes
4. Smells
5. Sensations (coming from touching something, or noticing the bodily sensations or feelings that are present in the body).
6. Thoughts. A thought can appear as a pictorial/visual thought, like imagining an apple. It can appear as an auditory / verbal thought, like the word ‘apple’. Auditory thoughts can appear as a voice or a tune of a music, or an imagined sound of a car or a person.
Most of the time, thoughts tell a story, often accompanied by a ‘mental movie’ with a ‘soundtrack’ of the story :)
Could you please give examples of each of these points?
Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 elements?
Is there anything that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?
Please be very thorough with this, since this the base of our investigation to see what is here now, and what is just a thought content, a story.
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Vivian,
I read the instructions several times, and below are the answers from my current understanding of the exercise:
Red skewed rectangles with darker red patches, Brown blurry oval
2. Sounds
High pitch chirping and low irregular broken deep sound
3. Tastes
Taste in my mouth
4. Smells
Smell of bread (I Don’t know how would I describe it)
5. Sensations
Breeze on my skin
Tension in my belly
Pressure on my back
6. Thoughts.
A picture of my ex boyfriend with a nervous smile, hearing his nervous laughter in my mind.
A voice saying ‘I’m sure he is hiding something’, ‘he has no other people to talk to’, and ‘he will not understand’.
1. Colors and shapesCould you please give examples of each of these points?
Red skewed rectangles with darker red patches, Brown blurry oval
2. Sounds
High pitch chirping and low irregular broken deep sound
3. Tastes
Taste in my mouth
4. Smells
Smell of bread (I Don’t know how would I describe it)
5. Sensations
Breeze on my skin
Tension in my belly
Pressure on my back
6. Thoughts.
A picture of my ex boyfriend with a nervous smile, hearing his nervous laughter in my mind.
A voice saying ‘I’m sure he is hiding something’, ‘he has no other people to talk to’, and ‘he will not understand’.
No.Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 elements?
Only what I perceive with my senses or in my imagination/memory.Is there anything that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
All of our problems come from mistaking thought content FOR actuality.
Now, we have to look at the difference between experience and the thought narration ABOUT experience. Seeing this clearly is essential.
Generally speaking, we can say that there are two distinct world or realms:
- the realm of direct experience,
- and the world of thoughts and ideas ABOUT experience.
But we, most of the time, are confused by the two, unknowingly mixing them, imagining that experience is what we THINK it is.
Mistaking conceptual rendering of reality FOR reality is the source of human suffering, and also the source of the belief in being a separate self.
So let’s start to looking into this.
Sit somewhere alone for about 15-30 minutes and just simply feel into the experience what we call ‘breathing’.
Just notice all that is present; the incredibly rich array of experience that constitutes what we call ‘the breath’.
Now, notice whatever concepts, thoughts, interpretations are generated in the mind ABOUT the experience of breathing (what it is, what are its qualities, how it works, what it’s for, etc. – all the description and explanation about it).
Notice all the labels and categories applied to it (like cold, warm, shallow, superficial, depth, quick, slow, stressful, peaceful, etc.) – including the names we give to the experience (like the name/label ‘breathing’).
What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?
And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?
As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?
Just notice, the rich array of experience appears independently of its thought based description, just as the description doesn’t interfere with the experience itself.
Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?
The experience and the thought story ABOUT it existing parallel, side by side, without meddling with each other.
Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?
Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?
Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?
Please experiment with this several times before replying. From now on, please spend a whole day with each post, looking at the same thing again and again. It’s all about repeated investigation of your experience in any given moment.
Vivien
Yes. And seeing this is very important. All there is to our experience of the 5 senses + noticing the presence of thoughts… everything else is just a thought content, an imagination, a fiction, but not an actuality.V: Is there anything that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?O: Only what I perceive with my senses or in my imagination/memory.
All of our problems come from mistaking thought content FOR actuality.
Now, we have to look at the difference between experience and the thought narration ABOUT experience. Seeing this clearly is essential.
Generally speaking, we can say that there are two distinct world or realms:
- the realm of direct experience,
- and the world of thoughts and ideas ABOUT experience.
But we, most of the time, are confused by the two, unknowingly mixing them, imagining that experience is what we THINK it is.
Mistaking conceptual rendering of reality FOR reality is the source of human suffering, and also the source of the belief in being a separate self.
So let’s start to looking into this.
Sit somewhere alone for about 15-30 minutes and just simply feel into the experience what we call ‘breathing’.
Just notice all that is present; the incredibly rich array of experience that constitutes what we call ‘the breath’.
Now, notice whatever concepts, thoughts, interpretations are generated in the mind ABOUT the experience of breathing (what it is, what are its qualities, how it works, what it’s for, etc. – all the description and explanation about it).
Notice all the labels and categories applied to it (like cold, warm, shallow, superficial, depth, quick, slow, stressful, peaceful, etc.) – including the names we give to the experience (like the name/label ‘breathing’).
What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?
And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?
As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?
Just notice, the rich array of experience appears independently of its thought based description, just as the description doesn’t interfere with the experience itself.
Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?
The experience and the thought story ABOUT it existing parallel, side by side, without meddling with each other.
Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?
Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?
Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?
Please experiment with this several times before replying. From now on, please spend a whole day with each post, looking at the same thing again and again. It’s all about repeated investigation of your experience in any given moment.
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Breathing - It’s life force giving, it’s automatic, it shouldn’t be so shallow, it’s slow, gradual, comforting, keeps me alive,What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?
I’m being breathed, I can control my breath, it’s the bridge between mind and body, is to bring oxygen into my body, the in-breath should be cooler than the out-breath, I can hold my breath for 4:45 mins, last time I held my breath on weed I passed out and fell off, I wish I had more breath capacity for running..
Sensations expanding the belly and air moving through the nose, the back is moving slightly, cooler and ticklier air in the nose on the in-breath and warmer on the out-breath, effortless, smooth,And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?
Yes, simultaneously, independent of each other.As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?
Yes, it doesn’t. Except when I was thinking about your question, there was a thought saying ‘breathe’ as I was breathing, almost trying to prove me wrong. But normally it doesn’t.Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?
I see. Yes, they are not. Two different worlds.Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?
No. They can try but it can never be the same equation. This is quite profound!Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?
No, not the actual experience.Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?
ok.Please experiment with this several times before replying. From now on, please spend a whole day with each post, looking at the same thing again and again. It’s all about repeated investigation of your experience in any given moment.
Thank you!
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
It’s huge to discover that our thought stories are not actual, real things.
Please continue observing this throughout your day. Make it into a habit. That could help a lot.
The following link is a 7-minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw
1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.
2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.
Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.
3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.
4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Notice this inner narration as often as you can for today.
What is it that you can discover about it? What do you notice?
Does the comment influence the play? Does it do it at all?
How about the comment commenting on Sarah’s every move?
Vivien
If you look at this very closely, isn’t the just another subtle story/interpretation of the experience of the ever changing sensations?V: And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?O: Sensations expanding the belly and air moving through the nose, the back is moving slightly, cooler and ticklier air in the nose on the in-breath and warmer on the out-breath, effortless, smooth,
Yes, it is! :) We spend most of our lives mistaking our conceptual thoughts FOR actuality, for reality.V: Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?O: No. They can try but it can never be the same equation. This is quite profound!
It’s huge to discover that our thought stories are not actual, real things.
Please continue observing this throughout your day. Make it into a habit. That could help a lot.
The following link is a 7-minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw
1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.
2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.
Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.
3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.
4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Notice this inner narration as often as you can for today.
What is it that you can discover about it? What do you notice?
Does the comment influence the play? Does it do it at all?
How about the comment commenting on Sarah’s every move?
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Vivian,
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. :)
Olivia
I see, yes even those descriptions are stories, the raw experience would be just sensations changing or appearing more intense and subsiding.If you look at this very closely, isn’t the just another subtle story/interpretation of the experience of the ever changing sensations?
I found the commentator (thought) was mostly describing the looks of the women and comparing their beauty. That was a bigger competition for me than the football game, which I generally don’t find exciting (or any other sport). But I did this several times and the commentator definitely took a side and was cheering one team, labeling them badasses, and the other ones were the Too distracted ones. Lol. The soundtrack (sound on) added some emotion to the experience. Also, the commentator was completely wrong/irrelevant, as the Too distracted ones scored the first point.What did you find when doing this exercise?
No. It seems so irrelevant.Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. :)
My inner narrator is usually quite off the topic, narrating something that’s not even present. That’s when I’m alone. When I am with people, it is very present and commenting and judging whomever I speak to, immediately divides them into who is up or down, safe or unsafe, friend or not friend, relevant or irrelevant to me, on my team ( e.g. ani-vaccine) or not on my team (pro-vaccine). Especially with new people, as I went to a party last night that I rarely go to. The narrator seems to compete with some women that have relationship with my boyfriend but not with me, telling me I had nothing in common with them and that I can’t even hear them for the music, so I was avoiding them with the same determination as the defense players in football.Notice this inner narration as often as you can for today.
What is it that you can discover about it? What do you notice?
No. Not at all.Does the comment influence the play? Does it do it at all?
I missed the Sarah comments. And I watched with the sound on and off, for around 13 mins.How about the comment commenting on Sarah’s every move?
Olivia
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
How about the narration commenting on Olivia’s every move?
Spend as much time as you can be noticing the story about Olivia in your daily life.
There is clearly a story about her, no doubt about that. But is there an actual, real Olivia in life that the story is about?
Or Olivia only ever exists as a mythical character in the thought story?
When you shift your focus from the story/narration, what is the direct experience of Olivia?
Where is Olivia in experience, in actuality, that all those thoughts are referring TO?
Can you find a person, or you can only ever found thoughts and sensations, but the me-character, Olivia?
Want is narrating? What is it talk is talking on behalf of Olivia?
What is thinking of those thoughts?
Vivien
Oh, sorry, Sarah is a mistake on my part :) I meant Olivia.V: How about the comment commenting on Sarah’s every move?O: I missed the Sarah comments. And I watched with the sound on and off, for around 13 mins.
How about the narration commenting on Olivia’s every move?
Ok, so here you described the content of those stories / narration.My inner narrator is usually quite off the topic, narrating something that’s not even present. That’s when I’m alone. When I am with people, it is very present and commenting and judging whomever I speak to, immediately divides them into who is up or down, safe or unsafe, friend or not friend, relevant or irrelevant to me, on my team ( e.g. ani-vaccine) or not on my team (pro-vaccine). Especially with new people, as I went to a party last night that I rarely go to. The narrator seems to compete with some women that have relationship with my boyfriend but not with me, telling me I had nothing in common with them and that I can’t even hear them for the music, so I was avoiding them with the same determination as the defense players in football.
Spend as much time as you can be noticing the story about Olivia in your daily life.
There is clearly a story about her, no doubt about that. But is there an actual, real Olivia in life that the story is about?
Or Olivia only ever exists as a mythical character in the thought story?
When you shift your focus from the story/narration, what is the direct experience of Olivia?
Where is Olivia in experience, in actuality, that all those thoughts are referring TO?
Can you find a person, or you can only ever found thoughts and sensations, but the me-character, Olivia?
Want is narrating? What is it talk is talking on behalf of Olivia?
What is thinking of those thoughts?
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Vivian,
I had an amazing experience last night! I was meditating on the questions you wrote to me last night but didn’t have any expectations about them. But I looked what’s ‘there’.
And so now I saw Olivia as an image on a screen that was appearing in my mind vision. All the past and future were contained on that one screen of the mind. I asked myself ‘how do I know WHEN these stories take place?’ Do they come with a narration telling me what day and year they ‘happened’? And I looked and it was so simple - when it was a story of the past, they happened to the left of my point of view and the future projection happened in the right, the more left, the longer time ago. So all of this was happening only in the now, the whole story of Olivia.. images and voices just flashing on the screen like some sort of magic trick. Sometimes they were right in the middle, and those were overlapping with reality; Eg. I saw my boyfriend’s face on a box of an almond milk when I took a break and went to the fridge. And a voice said ‘I’m so grateful for Josef for buying us some almond milk’. It was as if there were no images and voices but image-voices that were glued together. So I looked more into who was that I from which it sees Olivia’s life.. and there was nothing, just in the ‘centre’ of this dynamic screen, there was not even one point, it was a nothing point.
So to answer your questions:
Where is Olivia in experience, in actuality, that all those thoughts are referring TO?
She doesn’t exist in actuality. the body She is apparently looking from is also made of sensations and thoughts.
Can you find a person, or you can only ever found thoughts and sensations, but the me-character, Olivia?
Not a real person. I can find thoughts (inaudible voices), invisible images and sensations
Want is narrating? What is it talk is talking on behalf of Olivia?
I don’t know. They seems to just pop in out of nowhere.
What is thinking of those thoughts?
I'm not sure.
I had an amazing experience last night! I was meditating on the questions you wrote to me last night but didn’t have any expectations about them. But I looked what’s ‘there’.
And so now I saw Olivia as an image on a screen that was appearing in my mind vision. All the past and future were contained on that one screen of the mind. I asked myself ‘how do I know WHEN these stories take place?’ Do they come with a narration telling me what day and year they ‘happened’? And I looked and it was so simple - when it was a story of the past, they happened to the left of my point of view and the future projection happened in the right, the more left, the longer time ago. So all of this was happening only in the now, the whole story of Olivia.. images and voices just flashing on the screen like some sort of magic trick. Sometimes they were right in the middle, and those were overlapping with reality; Eg. I saw my boyfriend’s face on a box of an almond milk when I took a break and went to the fridge. And a voice said ‘I’m so grateful for Josef for buying us some almond milk’. It was as if there were no images and voices but image-voices that were glued together. So I looked more into who was that I from which it sees Olivia’s life.. and there was nothing, just in the ‘centre’ of this dynamic screen, there was not even one point, it was a nothing point.
So to answer your questions:
No.There is clearly a story about her, no doubt about that. But is there an actual, real Olivia in life that the story is about?
She is a fictional character, I get that.Or Olivia only ever exists as a mythical character in the thought story?
She is an image, sometimes moving pictures and with voices. There is actually more than one. Not sure how many.When you shift your focus from the story/narration, what is the direct experience of Olivia?
Where is Olivia in experience, in actuality, that all those thoughts are referring TO?
She doesn’t exist in actuality. the body She is apparently looking from is also made of sensations and thoughts.
Can you find a person, or you can only ever found thoughts and sensations, but the me-character, Olivia?
Not a real person. I can find thoughts (inaudible voices), invisible images and sensations
Want is narrating? What is it talk is talking on behalf of Olivia?
I don’t know. They seems to just pop in out of nowhere.
What is thinking of those thoughts?
I'm not sure.
Re: Liv Unbound
Hi Olivia,
You did a nice investigation :)
So now the question is: Does Olivia exist outside of those mental movies and stories?
Does Olivia exist in actuality?
Is there someone thinking thoughts?
Is Olivia thinking thoughts?
Is there an I thinking thoughts?
Is there a thinker?
Or thoughts happen on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?
Vivien
You did a nice investigation :)
Yes, past and future are just stories. All there is this very moment, and those images and stories ABOUT past an future appear NOW. Can you see that?And so now I saw Olivia as an image on a screen that was appearing in my mind vision. All the past and future were contained on that one screen of the mind. I asked myself ‘how do I know WHEN these stories take place?’ Do they come with a narration telling me what day and year they ‘happened’? And I looked and it was so simple - when it was a story of the past,
So now the question is: Does Olivia exist outside of those mental movies and stories?
Does Olivia exist in actuality?
Look at thoughts and they coming and going….V: What is thinking of those thoughts?O: I'm not sure.
Is there someone thinking thoughts?
Is Olivia thinking thoughts?
Is there an I thinking thoughts?
Is there a thinker?
Or thoughts happen on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/
Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/
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LivUnbound
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 am
Re: Liv Unbound
Yes!Yes, past and future are just stories. All there is this very moment, and those images and stories ABOUT past an future appear NOW. Can you see that?
NoSo now the question is: Does Olivia exist outside of those mental movies and stories?
NoDoes Olivia exist in actuality?
No, they just appearIs there someone thinking thoughts?
The thoughts just pop in, I can’t see how Olivia would do that when she is just a thought herselfIs Olivia thinking thoughts?
Maybe some greater I beyond the stories and appearances. Otherwise, there is no I thinking, it’s almost the opposite. Because the thoughts are so confusing. So inaccurate. Something - ‘I’, if I had a choice - would often never chose.Is there an I thinking thoughts?
I can’t find someone thinking the thoughts, they just appear out of nowhere, but also seem not to be random. They support the story. there seems to be some intelligence behind the thoughts.Is there a thinker?
Yes, they just happen, just pop upOr thoughts happen on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?
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