The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is something in me which I perceive as the actor of my life and while searching to find who or where or what it really is there is just an image of a body (functioning) which is taken for a real entity. Still a confusion arise and an endless seeking to find out is there really such thing a self or separate me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to find out is there really any real self who is it and to question what is making me still search or doubt. What is the truth? Is there a Truth? There is also a feeling that to be guided ´live ´by someone who went through that can help me see it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I appreciate your experience on the subject and I want to sincerely discover what finally is this liberation that I’m longing for. I’m willing to follow your guidance and put an end to that quest.Thank you!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve had a few glimpses or insights throughout my life that something is not right the way I see it. Few years ago started watching Satsang and reading spiritual information. Now I’m mostly following Stephen Wolinsky’s work and inquiries as well as the teachings of Nisagardatta Maharaj

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,
Nice! Thanks for your questions.

I’m ready to post every day, unless I need more time for investigation.

I expect some release of the inner tension that seems to be here. I want to question the reality of it. It seems that if I don’t look it’s not there, but when I ´hook ´ to it it bothers me.
I imagine that if there is not a trace of ´me ´ as a separate entity anywhere I would be so happy and free. I can even have a glimpse of it. But I believe it’s just imaginary.
Otherwise everything can happen. I’m fine with everything that life brings to me.

Thank you for your clear guidance.
Love
Shima

Hi Shima,

Thank you for your responses.

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us. Also, please always quote each BLUE question and reply to them one-by-one. That could help us a lot.

So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I imagine that if there is not a trace of ´me ´ as a separate entity anywhere I would be so happy and free

There is ALREADY no ‘me’ anywhere. Actually, it has never ever been. Never. Regardless of what we believe, there has never been any me anywhere.

If you deeply consider this, then you can see that happiness or freedom doesn’t simply just depend on believing that there is an inherent self.

When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.

I would be so happy and free

Happiness is a state, and no states are permanent. And if you really look closely…. Who is it that wants to be happy and free? Isn’t it the self that imagined to be there?

Can a non-existent entity be happy and free? Or there could be only emotions coming and going, but without a person having them?

And free from what? From itself? Or from those unpleasant sensations?

What is it that you really want? Do you want to fight away those tense sensations, in the hope of happiness? Or… you would like to go much-much deeper to see who or what is it that has a problem with those tense sensations?

What I can offer, is the latter. What we do here is not self-improvement. It’s about seeing that there is no self at the core HAVING those tense sensations. There is no one trying to wish them away…. That they are just free-floating without being anchored to anything… just simply sensations, emotions, feeling coming and going… just as a spontaneous happening.

Freedom is NOT freedom FROM certain emotions, feelings, sensations.
Freedom is FEELING FREELY ALL emotions, feelings and sensations.

I expect some release of the inner tension that seems to be here.

The inner tension is there not simply because it’s believed that there is a separate self. It’s there because a huge web of beliefs and emotional wounds that are gathered throughout the years.

This exploration is a beginning and not an ending. Generations of misperceptions, learned knowledge, and a life time of accumulated beliefs and conditioning do not fall away overnight when realisation happens.

What begins is the undoing of these misperceptions that keep us yo-yoing between clarity and confusion. How long this undoing takes is different for everyone. Expectations of overnight change when realisation happens can be problematic as the shift in perception can be quite subtle, and can be missed as there are expectations of what should happen, how it should look, feel and be.

I want to question the reality of it. It seems that if I don’t look it’s not there, but when I ´hook ´ to it it bothers me.

I cannot help you to make that tension go away. It’s not possible. Life cannot be controlled. What I can offer is to see if there is actually anyone being bothered by it? If there is actually someone being affected by it?

We won’t try to control the uncontrollable… rather we can look together who/what is it that things that it has a control and problem with any emotion? If there is anyone at all :)

Are you up for it?

This guiding is about deconstructing the idea of a ‘me’ in order to see what you are not, as what you are is not definable or findable. It is to notice what is actually here, what is actuality of experience as opposed to what thought says and describes as being here. You have to be willing to disregard everything you think you already know and be here with a curious, willing and open mind.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

Thank you, Vivien!

Ok, let's forget about ´my’ expectations.

Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation

For me There is NO difference between a happening and imagination. Since there was a question- an answer will be always in my imagination, a wishful thinking... a trap- HAHa, smart!

What is it that you really want? Do you want to fight away those tense sensations, in the hope of happiness? Or… you would like to go much-much deeper to see who or what is it that has a problem with those tense sensations?

yes,I’m already happy and free sometimes, but not because I will chase it. The Habit of the seeking for eternal Happening is in play.. where to go deeper into it?
I see all as a changing process anyway BUT I want to know who then sees it? Since IT as an Observer is No THING REAL, so all the perceptions can go to the trash as well.
Is it not the nervous system of the body and the intellect(language skills) dressing it up in a nice description. And when this organism dies obviously nothing is left of it- no trace of conditioning, simply because it’s not needed- a dead body is recycled. When a new body is born- all starts all over. And it goes on without anybody’s consent...
So I get it- there IS No THING to realise!

Since Now I AM, so everything else is a part of and from me. What Else?!
A ll that translates it into this or that (story of me-descriptions of a human mind( language skills)
This all is part of my direct experience, which I call ´I ´as a human being which one day will be a dead body!and all that is NoT REAL!
***
So,you say:

There is ALREADY no ‘me’ anywhere. Actually, it has never ever been. Never. Regardless of what we believe, there has never been any me anywhere.

All good as a statement. Show me who concluded it? No Body’s mind? He must be the real deal!
Is the experience of a personality of Nobody a Reality?
Haha.. Nobody experiences Nothing- just sounds, shades of light, sensations, coming out of nowhere for nobody, meaning No Thing as In mommy’s tummy?
How exactly this function for you NoW? Or for anybody in a human body? Even animals have their natural instincts- which represent their Self expression as a species.
All is here as a normal tension of life- Which is the simple Truth - this body IS alive now, and one day it will die, so then no tentions.
All is FINE. And..I get it
I am experiencing trough this body and I am the observer of it. And if I am not here nothing can be seen without me( conclusion, based on imagination)

Even so .. The definitions of reality are just that- mind concepts. No One can find such a THING as Reality and show it to another. We are just amusing with each other. Just like that!
So NObody has a conclusion and makes it a philosophy, a point of view about life, so he can understand concepts and expresses them and then maybe teaches others how to recognise they are also THAT ( vision)!
Namaste! Thank you!, Says Everybody
***


If there is a conclusion to make I would say I’m tired of this mind games- who’s teaching is better :)

As you say,

This exploration is a beginning and not an end

AHA! Just what we call ‘LIFE’

You have to be willing to disregard everything you think you already know and be here with a curious, willing and open mind.

Thank you, but no more thank you, I just have no more mind... went for a walk:))
yet nothing personal. Don’t take it seriously- it ‘ s just your job, because it’s nice to juggle our minds and help people ´get it’ and they do- actually when they get exhausted and start living their lives and minding their own business( reality).

Can a non-existent entity be happy and free?

No!You must have to be kidding? freedom is a perception?

Freedom is NOT freedom FROM certain emotions, feelings, sensations.
Freedom is FEELING FREELY ALL emotions, feelings and sensations.

Free As all you think , perceive , experience you are and life is.. same same, but different!


Thanks, Vivien!
Lové
Shima

Hi Shima,

Thank you for your comments.

Could you please go back to my previous post, reply to each blue questions?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

My last post didn’t make it clear? Whatever your questions comments are, there seems to be just lot of rationalisations there and the game is over for me here.

Could you please go back to my previous post, reply to each blue questions?

No, thank you! There is nothing left to continue investigating. No pull, no negative emotion, no personal attitude. Just nada..
All is just FiNe as it is! I don’t need any more confirmations.
Thanks for your guidance, Vivien!


Wish you all the best in all your endeavors!

Love
Shima

All right.

All the best,
Vivien