The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is a truth in regards to reality which at this moment I cannot see because I believe the stories in my head and the consequent feelings and emotions I experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
To stop being drawn in by the thoughts that are going round and round in my head, that are the source of the fatigue, fear and angst I am experiencing that keep me frozen in place instead of fully taking part in life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that truth and honesty from a guide will point out my own false beliefs and allow me the space in which to really feel for truth and honesty in myself and in such a way that I will be able to open up to reality in a way I never have before.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been searching for something deeper and for the truth of things most of my life without having the context of what people talk of when they speak of awakening. Apart from one or two main stream television personalities such as Eckart Tolle and Byron Katie, that have spoken about waking up, I like most people, thought you had to travel to far of places to study at the feet of a Guru for years in order to experience such a change for yourself, if even. Mostly I have meditated on and of over the years in a very light manner in order to let go off stress and feel more relaxed. Sometimes I tone or chant or do Reiki, but I never think it will be the cause of an awakening. It's only in the last few months that I've discovered people on youtube talking about non-duality, but I don't understand much of what they say other that they understand it and I can only once I've had such a moment of change or clarity for myself. Very recently I've come apon everyday people who speak about what happened to them in such a plain way that for the first time I thought someone like me could at least make an attempt at discovering the truth for themselves and no specialness is required.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed!
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to guide you through your inquiry if you'd like.

For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search, personal growth, or even reading other threads, it will only add confusion.

We are going to be exploring beliefs, and so you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally.

The key ingredients are honesty and curiosity. Please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.

Agreed?

Yes, "ordinary" people can also find out the truth :) It doesn't have to take 20 years or a guru.

Can you tell me how you expect life to change if this realization becomes clear?
What will be different?

Regards
Ron

Hi Ron!

So happy to have you as my guide, thank you!
Yes, please guide me.

Agreed?

Yes, I agree.

Can you tell me how you expect life to change if this realization becomes clear?

I either expect everything will change or nothing will change. Nothing in the sense that from the outside I might not show much of a change and life will go on as before. Everything, as in my dealings with life could be totally different because nothing will look or feel the same to me as before.

What will be different?

The way I look at the world would be different. Maybe I will be more honest with how I truly feel instead of covering it up and make better decisions in life. Maybe I will be more centered and grounded as a person and not feel the need for assurance from others. I could possibly fulfill a deeper connection with life, Soul or God that I'm longing for.

Hi
Should I call you Nicolette?

Expectations can become obstacles to realization and that is why it's important to review them.
What we anticipate “it” will be like is influenced by what we want it to be. In a figurative way, there is a “me” that wants to take part of that "it".

I either expect everything will change or nothing will change. Nothing in the sense that from the outside I might not show much of a change and life will go on as before. Everything, as in my dealings with life could be totally different because nothing will look or feel the same to me as before.

I can't argue with all or nothing 😁, the shift is both meaningful and subtle. The so called personality does not change so fast; if you have been anxious before, you may continue to experience anxiety and the same with other old patterns and emotions. Realizing no-self is a first step in a lifetime of discovering and untangling these beliefs.

Maybe I will be more honest with how I truly feel instead of covering it up and make better decisions in life. Maybe I will be more centered and grounded as a person and not feel the need for assurance from others. I could possibly fulfill a deeper connection with life, Soul or God that I'm longing for.

What you describe is a perfect example of the type of work that can be done with more success after realization. Since you pointed out Byron Katie in your intro, I assume you are familiar with her work which is a superb way of looking into beliefs such as these, with the self illusion out of the way, it will likely add some additional clarity.

But here we're focused on the illusion that creates the biggest identification as a self, so try to put aside any expectations that are meant to better you and "your life", there is actually no you and this is not "your life", there is just life.

How can you achieve a deeper connection with life? Doesn't that imply that you're now a separate entity from life, and later you will connect to it?
You are already exactly whatever it is that you are, or more correctly, what you are not, see that? No thought or understanding can change what is, ever. What if the only thing that keeps you feeling separate is that thought?

Do you feel any resistance arising from my statements and questions above?
Are you ready to begin?

Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron
Yes, you can call me Nicolette, thank you.

I feel motivated by everything you've said so far. That it takes a lifetime to untangle belief systems, etc. and that realising the illusion of self will make further querying into beliefs a bit easier as I did stumble with BK's work knowing that I was missing something.

How can you achieve a deeper connection with life? Doesn't that imply that you're now a separate entity from life, and later you will connect to it?
You are already exactly whatever it is that you are, or more correctly, what you are not, see that? No thought or understanding can change what is, ever. What if the only thing that keeps you feeling separate is that thought?

You saying this gave me all the feels, lol.😊 I want so much to see this for myself.

Do you feel any resistance arising from my statements and questions above?

No, not at all.

Are you ready to begin?

Yes, absolutely. Let's go.

Hi Nicolette,
I will usually only answer in my evening, but I'm up early and today's special is two 😉
I am glad to read your reply.

Unlike learning where you build an understanding through thinking and reasoning, here we look. Looking is really simple, yet not so simple, we spent most of our lives learning by thinking, so it would help to clarify this point.
1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment, e.g. it cannot be based on memory.
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience (AE).
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly, but by continuous and steady looking you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

The content of thoughts is an imagined experience, think about your last meal, the thought is here, but the food isn't. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile.

Again, thinking will not help you realize what the self is, you have to look and experience everything directly. All I can do is ask you questions that point to something you can experience, and at times provide you with some exercises that when done with curiosity and attention can be extremely helpful. All you have to do is look at what’s there and try to drop all of your expectations, assumptions and beliefs - how hard can that be? :)


Please sit down for a bit, and watch carefully:
What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

1. please provide one or more examples that you actually noticed on each of these items.
2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.


Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron
Thanxs as for the twofer for today.😁
Here I go.

1. please provide one or more examples that you actually noticed on each of these items

Sounds: Hearing people talking outside, birds singing, workmen hammering away, cars driving past, shoes hitting the ground hard as people run, pet dogs barking and crying for attention, pet bird talking. My own breathing and sighing. Hooter honking.

Sights: More warm light as the sun comes out after the rain. Every usual thing inside the house. Outside, raindrops on vibrant orange flowers and the green folage looks especially green today.

Sensation: Lots of ichines now you've mentioned it, lol. Some hair tickling the skin of the face, a foot that's itchy, skin on the ear lobe. Feel the weight of my body on my bottom as I sit and of the body on my feet when I stand up and they also feel squishy as my feet adjusts on the cool tiled floor. Mouth feels dry. Moisture on the skin of the face.

Smells: Went outside and smelled someone's perfume. The air smells fresh after the rain. Inside smell is quite stale in comparison.

Thoughts: Yes, now that you've pointed it out there is a running story inside my head that is made up of images and sound/talking, that's been running in my head all morning. In regards to my to do list for the day, commitments I have to keep, relationships with people when I feel, apparently, I want to have none of it and just veg. Now that I see these thoughts, I feel like I'm stepping out of a made up reality that's slowly been sucking my energy, eventhough none of it is happening in this moment.

2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?

What Else?: Especially now that I've noticed where my attentions been going, that is my thoughts and that it's quite tiresome, I take a deep breath in and my attention goes inwards as I relax and breath deeper. Here it feels specious and calm and like there is no hurry at all.

Please let me know if I understood this correctly. Else, I will try again, with pleasure.

Hi Nicolette,
Well done, sorry for the itch 😝

What Else?: Especially now that I've noticed where my attentions been going, that is my thoughts and that it's quite tiresome

So did you find anything other than the 5 senses and thoughts?I didn't see a clear cut answer.
Is there anything else that can be experienced outside of these?

Are you shifting attention between sights, sounds, thoughts etc? Is this something you control?

Never answer from memory, always do the task, experience it directly, then answer.


In my previous post I talked a bit about Actual Experience (AE) or Direct Experience (DE) we use these synonymously. As you already noticed yourself (nice!), It's important that breaking down activities, objects and emotions as DE is incorporated into your daily life throughout your day, every day. Like any habit, it has to be practiced in order for it to become second nature. I would like you to do the following exercise as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily ACTIVITIES, OBJECTS AND EMOTIONS simply as color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

For example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Look at some of your daily activities and break them down into DE and report back how you go, giving just a couple of examples please.

Looking forward to what you find
Ron

Hi Ron
I'll quickly answer these questions before bed and then I'll spend tomorrow applying DE during my day and write out the exercise, if that's ok?😪

So did you find anything other than the 5 senses and thoughts?I didn't see a clear cut answer.
Is there anything else that can be experienced outside of these?

Beingness or aliveness within myself that doesn't have to do with experiencing the senses and has nothing to do with thought. When I put my attention on it, it feels different from being in the middle of a thought story, it's simply something that's already there. If I close my eyes and sit quietly I sometimes feel a slight sense of bliss. As long as emotions or thoughts don't carry me away, I can always come back to it. It feels spacious within.

Warm Regards
Nicolette

Of course, these questions were for your tomorrow.

Beingness or aliveness within myself that doesn't have to do with experiencing the senses and has nothing to do with thought

hmmm, there are states that can produce something that seem to stand out from the day-to-day experiences, some can be brought up e.g. by chemicals, or even meditation (which may produce chemicals😉), but as they are not here now, and not a standard awaking state, we cannot really explore them in actual experience. It's a bit like we all know what a night dream is like, but cannot explore it here and now. Another point is that feelings of great joy (say being in love, or feeling love) as well as terrible anguish or depression are still not outside feelings, sensations, thoughts, only they may be very difficult to see! Without going into meditative states, please simply explore what can be experienced, what is here now are the 5 senses and thoughts, I cannot find anything else that is not already "made" of these. So I invite you to test it again. No state is permanent.

OK, let's continue from the DE, and don't forget my other question:
Are you shifting attention between sights, sounds, thoughts etc? Is this something you control?

Thank you

Hi Ron!

Thank you, I'm still finding my feet and rhythm with posting. I can see taking my time is better.🤔

hmmm, there are states that can produce something that seem to stand out from the day-to-day experiences, some can be brought up e.g. by chemicals, or even meditation (which may produce chemicals😉), but as they are not here now, and not a standard awaking state, we cannot really explore them in actual experience. It's a bit like we all know what a night dream is like, but cannot explore it here and now. Another point is that feelings of great joy (say being in love, or feeling love) as well as terrible anguish or depression are still not outside feelings, sensations, thoughts, only they may be very difficult to see! Without going into meditative states, please simply explore what can be experienced, what is here now are the 5 senses and thoughts, I cannot find anything else that is not already "made" of these. So I invite you to test it again. No state is permanent.

Yes, it's great that you pointed this out to me, it makes sense, especially where chemicals/meditation is concerned.

Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?

Ron, I've tried my best to find anything else apart from the five senses or thoughts and I've really been looking and stretching myself, but in the here and now I only find the senses and thoughts.

Are you shifting attention between sights, sounds, thoughts etc? Is this something you control?

I do my best, but even when I try to focus on one sense only, everything is still happening all at the same time or in it's own time just as it wants and I can't even make my thoughts stop or get them to be more positive. No, I'm not in control, for sure.

ACTIVITIES: Sweeping the floor with a broom
I see the colours brown and gold of the broom and the neutral cream-grey of the floor, simply=Sight.
I hear the sound the bristles of the broom makes on the floor when it first touches the tile and a second sound after when it sweeps over the tile, simply=Sound.
I feel the stiffness of the broomstick in my hand and the coolness of the stick against my skin, simply=Sensations.
Taste and smell - None
I see an image of myself sweeping the broom in a particular way before I actually do it and thoughts about how I should or shouldn't sweep as well as sounds/words chattering in my mind, simply=Thoughts.

EMOTIONS: I pay attention to what feels like anxiety within myself.
As I do so, I sit in my room with the bed beneath me and I feel my bottom pressing my weight into it, with my feet touching the blanket and the skin of my feet feeling the fluffyness of the blanket. My stomach feels tight and my breathing is shallow, simply= Sensations.
I see the daylight streaming into the room as well as all the objects in it and all the different colours around me, especially aqua. I notice my eyesight is less focused, simply=Sight.
I hear myself sighing and breathing through my nose and a car drives past outside, simply=Sound.
My mouth still taste what I had for lunch, simply=Taste.
I smell fresh air coming into the room,simply=Smell
I have people/images in my head, talking/sound, a story running and repeating itself, allot of should and shouldn'ts, simply=Thoughts

OBJECT: Cup of tea.
I hear the kettle boil the water, and I hear the water filling the cup, simply=Sound.
I see a glass cup, it's content, water, tea bag as well as steam rising out of it, simply=Sight.
I smell the vanilla aroma coming from the steaped tea, simply=Smell.
The cup feels heavy in my hand and it's very hot against the skin of my hand, simply=Sensations.
Finally I get to sip the tea and it tastes slightly woody and I taste the vanilla in the tea, simply= Taste.
I have thoughts of wanting to drink the tea have thoughts of being cautious to not burn myself, simply=Thouhts.

Hi Nicolette,
Yes, always take your time and be thorough, it's a journey to enjoy!

Thank you for the descriptions, it felt like I was there :)
You've noticed how the shifting of attention just happens, wonderful.

Now we're going to take a good look at thoughts.Play close attention, look carefully and do it as many times as it takes to be completely sure that what is experienced is it.


Can you predict your next thought?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes?
Can you stop having thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron

Can you predict your next thought?

Not at all. Just as I think I can something quite different pops into my head.

How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?

Looking at my thoughts I don't feel like I am doing anything to make them appear. I don't know where they come from or go to, to be honest.They just seem to appear and then dissappear to be replaced by a new thought as something else happens in the moment. For a moment it seems that there is stillness, but that's an impression and it's fleeting, so I don't know for sure.

Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes?

That would be nice, lol. All my problems would be solved, but this I have tried many times in my life and I know quite well that I can't do that. Even now just observing my thoughts some are pleasant and others are very melancholy and they do as they like.

Can you stop having thoughts?

Not a chance!

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, because I don't even know which thought is going to pop into my head. If I tell myself not to think about something I can only do so through distraction and that simply means I try to avoid being aware of what I'm thinking. I cannot program myself not to let thoughts in.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

This is a bit more difficult, because sometimes it seems I do that, but is it really so? I try to distract myself, it's true, but the thought actually is still there or it's a case of the next thought taking it's place. The thought never stops in midair so to speak. If the thought shocks me the effect of it is felt in my body and then I try to adjust, which means to me it did it's job and never stopped or changed. Sitting here I am paying attention to a thought and I try to stop it, but it carries on. No, I can't stop thoughts in the middle, because they simply carry on.

Kind Regards,
Nicolette

Hi Nicolette,

One administrative note: Sometimes when you write a long post, if you press the wrong button, or if our site is having issues, you could lose all your hard work. I'd recommend either select-copy the buffer every few minutes when you type, or what I often do is type in a text editor and paste it in when done.

Looking at my thoughts I don't feel like I am doing anything to make them appear.

It's essential to be very clear about thoughts, they are creating the story we call self, my story.
So either you do something to make them happen, or you don't.
Here is a topic: "black cats aren't like other cats", now please "think" about this for a moment.
Do you see thoughts coming up with supporting or opposing arguments? Maybe both?
Do you have any control over this process?
Note if there are thoughts claiming that you do, but observe the appearance of thoughts.

For a moment it seems that there is stillness, but that's an impression and it's fleeting, so I don't know for sure.

When a thought vanishes, and just before the next one appears there is stillness, is that what you are describing? For some this is very short, for others it's noticeable. The more you notice thoughts the more you will experience these gaps.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, because I don't even know which thought is going to pop into my head. If I tell myself not to think about something I can only do so through distraction and that simply means I try to avoid being aware of what I'm thinking. I cannot program myself not to let thoughts in.

"because" is a logical construction and we are after experience, not rationalization😉 It doesn't mean you haven't experienced how you cannot prevent a thought from appearing, I'm just pointing out that you've then rationalized it. Try to not think about a red rhino for the next 30 seconds....
success?

And what does it actually mean "If I tell myself not to think about something"?
Isn't that a thought you didn't even notice?? Who/what created that thought?

No, I can't stop thoughts in the middle, because they simply carry on.

Right, even if it seems to have stopped, isn't more correct to say another thought said so? And more important, is that something you can control? Try it please.


Now let's play a little game to see if you are making choices and picking thoughts.
Is there a selection process that can be controlled?
Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick the first country that shows up
Got it?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "England" (or whatever).
Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?


2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say England and Germany and Spain came up, but for some reason Pakistan didn't.
was that limited group of countries selected by you?
did you decide not to include Pakistan?

3. a new choice was made, say England, and now another thought offers an explanation "I love English Earl Grey tea"

Did you observe free choice made?
Did you observe an actual thinking process?
Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

You can do it again and again.

Let me know what you find, and how does this all feel?

Warm regards
Ron

Hi Ron,
I am in a bit of a quandary over wether I control my thoughts or not, just to give you a heads up. And thank you for pointing it out that I have been rationalizing, lol. It's probably going to be on going, oh boy.🤓

It's essential to be very clear about thoughts, they are creating the story we call self, my story.
So either you do something to make them happen, or you don't.
Here is a topic: "black cats aren't like other cats", now please "think" about this for a moment.
Do you see thoughts coming up with supporting or opposing arguments? Maybe both?

Here is where I encounter some difficulty: I see two strong thoughts come up and both are opposing. Someone who unlike me doesn't like cats, may have very different thoughts in regards to the above statement, therefore It seems my thoughts are flavoured by 'me'. Yes, even what I'm saying here is a thought/s, but I can't quite shake it off. Why if I don't create/ birth my thoughts do they have 'me' in them?

Do you have any control over this process?

The thoughts that came up in regards to the statement came up on their own, that's true. I didn't choose them when it could have been other thoughts. They appeared instantly.

Note if there are thoughts claiming that you do, but observe the appearance of thoughts.

Yes, the thoughts that claim I do...'but it's flavoured by me'... also appear on their own and in an instant.

When a thought vanishes, and just before the next one appears there is stillness, is that what you are describing? For some this is very short, for others it's noticeable. The more you notice thoughts the more you will experience these gaps.

Yes, that's what I'm describing and if I put my attention on it the gaps to become bigger.

And what does it actually mean "If I tell myself not to think about something"?
Isn't that a thought you didn't even notice??

Yes, this one was funny. This too is/was a thought that appeared out of stillness and went away or back into stillness again.

Who/what created that thought? Not me. It is there instantly, as if out of nowhere. None of my doing.

Right, even if it seems to have stopped, isn't more correct to say another thought said so? And more important, is that something you can control? Try it please.

No, I can't control it. I thought maybe I could control it some, but no. There first thought was already formed and done when I tried to 'stop it with the next one.

Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?

No, I didn't choose it, it came up instantly on it's own.

was that limited group of countries selected by you?
did you decide not to include Pakistan?

No choice was made. The countries jumped into my head and I didn't think about any exclusions. Thoughts came instantly.

Did you observe free choice made?

Not at all. Some of the countries was surprising.

Did you observe an actual thinking process

None. Instantaneous happening, thoughts jumping into my mind that is.

Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

No, I didn't do anything of any kind.

Let me know what you find, and how does this all feel

I don't feel comfortable with this. If I don't have any control over my thoughts then what are they doing inside my head and why do they have so much power over me? How does my life and 'me' operate in this world. I feel a bit forlorn ... and all of this is thought/s... so, I'm taking a break.😂