The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The sense of 'I' that drives our whole life is only manifestation of our thoughts, feelings & the sense of 'being-ness' or 'awareness'. There is no 'I' looking out from behind our eyes. It is an illusion & is so close to us that it goes unrecognized by most. Similar to time & space being useful concepts, but only concepts created by our thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
A guide to assist me to directly experience my true nature, and see through this illusion of 'I'. I have many glimpses of 'I' just being thoughts and feelings, and moments where 'I' experience a deeper sense of 'empty awareness' which my attention and concentration can rest in, but it is only for a moment, and I quickly lose this sense and become lost in the superficial sense of 'I' again, as it feels so strong and sucks me in. Perhaps I intellectualize the process too much and I am too worried about losing this insight once I see it. I am looking for an experience in which I will be able to see this illusion clearly as in the 'santa clause' metaphor, and once seen, I will not unsee it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To guide me in exercises and answering questions to see the above illusion clearly, so that I do not become lose in this illusion of 'I' all the time.A guide to assist me to directly experience my true nature, and see through this illusion of 'I'. I have many glimpses of 'I' just being thoughts and feelings, and moments where 'I' experience a deeper sense of 'empty awareness' which my attention and concentration can rest in, but it is only for a moment, and I quickly lose this sense and become lost in the superficial sense of 'I' again, as it feels so strong and sucks me in. Perhaps I intellectualize the process too much and I am too worried about losing this insight once I see it. I am looking for an experience in which I will be able to see this illusion clearly as in the 'santa clause' metaphor, and once seen, I will not unsee it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Beginner.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Hi,

Welcome to the forum. I can be your guide here.

You have made yourself familiar with the forum so you probably know how this works?

Post here regularly and use quotes for answering. If you find any issues, tell me about them. I'll do the same.

We can chat here, if it's okay for you.

And also put aside all the theories what you've learned so far. Start from scratch :)

-thefin

Hi Thefin,

Sorry for the delayed reply. Thanks for being my guide.

I have read some posts in the forum, the LU App, the Gateless Gatecrashes book and the instructions post.

Ok, lets start from scratch :)

Thanks Seekerj

Hi,

Ok, let's go :)

Perhaps I intellectualize the process too much and I am too worried about losing this insight once I see it. I am looking for an experience in which I will be able to see this illusion clearly as in the 'santa clause' metaphor, and once seen, I will not unsee it.

Yes, that's usually the thing preventing the seeing. Me make many theories and assumptions and expectations what it should be. All of those are false. Trying to intellectually understand this no-self is like being in a room and imagining being in the room while still staying there :) Here comes the art of seeing. It need to be seen without giving to this "true nature" any meaning, expectation etc. Just experience it.

Unseeing won't happen intellectually, it is experienced. And you see, that self/I has never been. You drop that limiting belief consciously and THEN you see.

What makes you think there is "I"? And let's play: prove it.

-then

It need to be seen without giving to this "true nature" any meaning, expectation etc. Just experience it.

That's interesting. Seeing without attaching anything to it. Is that a skill that needs to be developed?

Unseeing won't happen intellectually, it is experienced. And you see, that self/I has never been. You drop that limiting belief consciously and THEN you see.

So 'I' need to do something before I can see? 'I' need to drop the belief of 'I' before I can see clearly?

What makes you think there is "I"? And let's play: prove it.

What makes me think there is an I? I guess the 'me' thinking...also an attachment to always label and personalize external things and internal thoughts. A desire of wanting to be fulfilled which can't be fulfilled. Also feelings of a sense of alive being or presence which I consider to be the driver of myself. Lots of things I guess.

Hi,

That's interesting. Seeing without attaching anything to it. Is that a skill that needs to be developed?

Yes, it's called direct experience. Experience without labeling experience. Basically just noticing what's here and without using imagination to find meaning to things. If you see a tree, there is seeing it - attaching meaning to it "it's a tree" is attaching a meaning to it.

So 'I' need to do something before I can see? 'I' need to drop the belief of 'I' before I can see clearly?

You will drop it automatically, if you experience your true self and realize what you are. At the same time you realize that this SeekerJ has never been.

What makes me think there is an I? I guess the 'me' thinking...also an attachment to always label and personalize external things and internal thoughts. A desire of wanting to be fulfilled which can't be fulfilled. Also feelings of a sense of alive being or presence which I consider to be the driver of myself. Lots of things I guess.

Quite contrary: it's not "I" who is thinking, it's not doing any of those. I is an imaginary cover to you. Allegory: you have clothes - does the clothes make you move? It's real you who is doing those desires, feeling of love etc - you just think "I" is doing those. On reality, SeekerJ is just a dummy cover.

Here's exercise to investigate your body - just check while doing it rely on pure experience and compare where is SeekerJ when you investigate. And answer also to this question: if you can experience things without SeekerJ taking part to it, what you really are then? And where is SeekerJ needed then? e.g. stretch yourself outside your body and see if you can do that.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Many questions and exercises - just report your findings.

-thefin

That was an interesting experience.

If you see a tree, there is seeing it - attaching meaning to it "it's a tree" is attaching a meaning to it.

Recently I saw a tree without attaching labels. For a brief moment it was a very interesting object that I was truly seeing for the first time. Something strange I was unfamiliar with. Then it suddenly turned back into a tree and I guess I wasn't simply seeing it again.

Below is answered from my direct experience:
Yes, by sensing the feelings and sensations around the outside of my body.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Weight no as I was lying down. Volume or size, yes but by just working it out by the space between the outside of my body.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Physical shape by sensed by sensations of my body.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Again by just feeling the sensations of my body such as touching the pillow or breeze.
The sensations would be the boundary.
Inside the sensations being inside me, and outside sensations being outside of me.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

From my experience, 'body' referred to a collection on sensations and feelings (as well as perceptions if my eyes were opened/ and thoughts if I was actively thinking), which form together and is called me, as well a sense of being me.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

From my experience, the ACTUAL experience of the body was the experience of sensations and feelings (and thoughts and perceptions), as well a sense of presence or aliveness (which I have been told can be our electromagnetic field).

---------
Some ideas floating around:

Otherwise, on an intellectual level, I understand the body is made up of 99.99% nothing /space. So the space of nothing of everything would be passing through everyone and everything, which is also actually nothing. As in first there is the space of nothing, then there is objects within that space of nothing. In this sense, everything is first nothing before it is something. And there is only one nothing, and using words creates a something out of that nothing.

The mind made sense of self was created as a concept, in the same way as humans created mathematics as a useful concept to help navigate the world. But in the end 'I' am only a concept, and without thinking there is no mind. There is only my direct experience plus a sense of being-ness. The experience comes out of the space of nothing, and my actions are often directed by my thoughts, of which is controlled by my thoughts..but a thought itself cannot think outside of the thought.

But in the end 'I' am only a concept, and without thinking there is no mind

By focusing on our direct experience we can stop thinking.
When we stop thinking we stop this mind made created sense of self, and we can just 'be'.
When we just 'be' we can realize we don't need our mind to 'be', and that we must be 'more' than just our mind.
Being more than our mind, means 'we' are not our mind, but thinking causes us to confuse who we are with our mind made thoughts.
If so..then 'we' are...simply our direct experiences, which our mind attaches labels too and creates this sense of a second me controlling everything?

Recently I saw a tree without attaching labels. For a brief moment it was a very interesting object that I was truly seeing for the first time. Something strange I was unfamiliar with. Then it suddenly turned back into a tree and I guess I wasn't simply seeing it again.

Good, that's the art of seeing. You did it without giving a tree any meaning to it and you saw it. Then you gave it a meaning and you lost it. I.e. you started analyzing what you saw and you instantly lost it. Don't do it :)
This strange will transform to familiar when you exercise it more. Try to repeat that experience for another object and tell what happens? Try to experience it like seeing happens, feeling happens, touching happens etc.

Yes, by sensing the feelings and sensations around the outside of my body.

My body is giving a meaning to it. Just focus on feeling it. Describe this experience again without giving a meaning: leave all the concepts out from this.

Again by just feeling the sensations of my body such as touching the pillow or breeze.
The sensations would be the boundary.
Inside the sensations being inside me, and outside sensations being outside of me.
From my experience, the ACTUAL experience of the body was the experience of sensations and feelings (and thoughts and perceptions), as well a sense of presence or aliveness (which I have been told can be our electromagnetic field).

Just feel :) "From my experience" refers to you memory i.e. not a direct experience. It relays to your beliefs etc about the things and you're instantly lost.

Could you repeat the exercise by just focusing without giving a label to things - what happens? Thing is here: you have feeling and you attach a thing/idea to it. Just do it by not attaching anything to experience.

In general you cannot (and you waste your time) trying to analyze what cannot be analyzed. Just drop it. I understand, that your mind want's to keep control on things and wants eagerly understand what's happening. How does it help you?

Does this help you: remember the time when you felt deep love towards somebody - did you analyze the love? Was it helpful?

-thefin

I did the exercise again.
I felt tingling, calm, empty and presence.
I felt pressure which separated 'my' body from the external objects I was against

I tried to look at an object without attachment but I was unable to just see.

Hi,

I felt tingling, calm, empty and presence.
I felt pressure which separated 'my' body from the external objects I was against

On reality, there is no I who is feeling that tingling etc. There just is. Human being has very strong tendency to put everything to category I do something, I'm there etc, that we believe and thing without even questioning if it's true. If and when you can experience things and life without help of I, where it is needed?

Some people experience the first time starting to break free from illusion of self just like that "tingling, empty, precence" etc. Just continue exercising. While doing that, where is self/SeekerJ needed? What is it's purpose? What could that "calm, empty, presense" be?

I tried to look at an object without attachment but I was unable to just see.

What you're trying to experience is the thing, that you try to bring your self to experience. You need to focus better to actual experience and it comes after few times - just be patient. And don't analyze :) It can be hard at first cause logic mind wants to be in control - but that thing goes beyond your logic mind and therefore is tough first, even scary. Play like a child, don't try to understand, just experience - what happens?

Here's another exercise to try which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

-thefin

Hi Fin,

Happy Easter and sorry for the delayed reply.

I practiced the writing experiment and had an interesting experience.

I noticed that labelling experiences (I experiences) adds a lawyer of identity of me onto the direct experiences and adds a personal element to my suffering of my experiences- as if to say things shouldn’t be this way and ‘I’ can change it, and stop suffering.

When I didnt label my experiences (No I) it did feel more pure and that suffering was not personal but it just is, because it is. There was no overlapping mind made sense of self personalising everything or an ego trying to improve everything.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I wasn’t sure which one was more true?
The experiences without labelling (No I) felt more pure in a way as I need to first have the experience (No I) before I can label it (I experiences).
So the I was dependent on the No I, but the No I wasn’t dependent on the I?
But the I experiences also felt more true or real for some reason - perhaps familiarity with labelling experiences or fear of letting go..?

2. What is here without labels?

No I is first - it is just direct experience without mind made self.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
- just describe it
- labels come after to personalise and describe
- this means that I labels are not essential to the direct experience- the direct experience is free from labels - and separate from my mind made sense of self
- this is quite clear intellectually but experentially I can only grasp it for a moment and then it is lost and I am back to totally identifying with the personalised I - labelling direct experiences and adding it to my mind made ego and sense of self- it is quite frustrating


4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
- No I experiences made me feel more connected to, accepting and peaceful with what I was experiencing
- I experiences caused me to resist, deny and want to change my experiences and environment. It was personal resistance to what is

Am I on the right track?
Thanks a lot

Hi,

Good, you're doing good. You've got many insights about how you carry that imaginary "I" on your life :)

I noticed that labelling experiences (I experiences) adds a lawyer of identity of me onto the direct experiences and adds a personal element to my suffering of my experiences- as if to say things shouldn’t be this way and ‘I’ can change it, and stop suffering.

Yes, just continue looking everything on your life without labeling and you see, that everything is just happening. Feelings etc just happens. There is no sufferer, there has never been. Who owns these experiences? You feel them on your body: who owns that body? Can imaginary "I" own something? Who is owner? Do you need to be an I (SeekrJ) to be?
Do you need to do anything to be? You can stop seeking something that doesn't exist.

I wasn’t sure which one was more true?

this is quite clear intellectually but experentially I can only grasp it for a moment and then it is lost and I am back to totally identifying with the personalised I - labelling direct experiences and adding it to my mind made ego and sense of self- it is quite frustrating

I see on your answers, that you're starting to break free from self-made prison you've been living. That makes hard at first see what is true and what is not.
If you can experience things on your life without "I", what is the functions of "I" then? Would it be possible, that "I" has control only partially on your experiences?
You need just keep on doing seeing and experiencing things and it will become a habit.

- No I experiences made me feel more connected to, accepting and peaceful with what I was experiencing

That's the way it goes. First you feel more peaceful and connected, then you start feeling love, that is on everything and you never go back.
This is all about realizing what you really are: you just drop every theory about that what it could be and you're there.

When there is a feeling of peaceful and acceptance… what is it that actually feels that?
What does freedom and acceptance happen TO?
What is it that is free? Is there someone that could become liberated or free?
Is there someone to awaken? Was there ever?

-thefin

Thanks Thefin.

From what your saying below, is it right to say that I seem to be on the right track and I just need to continue practising (and remembering to practise) trying to just see without the labels, attachments, negativity, judgment, resistance, reactivity? (and just directly experiencing things).

It’s a very simple thing to do in theory, but in practise I will say it’s difficult.

Today I had another glimpse of my ‘true’ nature when I just let my attention rest (fall, sink, dissolve) back into my awareness, by not focusing on, and attaching to any object at all. Just letting things be.

It felt natural, and it took no activity of the mind at all to do it (in fact if I tried to think of doing it then I wouldn’t be doing it).

There was just a calm peace, contentment, presence, inner stillness, and happiness. It felt like a familiar empty (but at the same time no empty) space which has always been with me in the background despite all the noise and distractions of my life. Like an inner oasis space that once known, I can always come back to in order to nourish me and remember who I am (however, annoyingly, I often forget this experience soon after when I am caught up in daily life).

It was only there for a few moments but the inner calmness and contentment has lasted for hours. (I learned of this direct experience example from combining a few instructors teachings but mainly Rupert Spira).

Is the above a good example of what I should be practising?

I hoped for a ‘sudden realisation’ but it seems more likely that my journey may be a gradual realisation through experience?.

Should I just continue practising the above and let you know how I go?

Thanks for your guidance.

Seekerj

Also in response to your questions:

From the direct experience writing example I did, I found:
- no one owns my experiences or my body- it just is
- I just am- there was just perceiving
- it seemed silly to even think ‘I’ I could own or possess anything, including myself or a phone etc. As if it was a plain truth even for a child to see that ‘I’ just am - I cannot own anything or do anything - things happen but that is not at the will of ‘I’
- the sense of eternal I was really the sense of beingness and that beingness can’t do or own anything- it just is
- that beingness always is and can never not be. So no matter how many things ‘I’ achieve or own to try satisfy ‘my’ ego - it is useless in the sense of beingness- as it will never effect or improve my beingness- I laughed and smiled when I saw this clearly- the clear impermanence of all things besides this sense of beingness, and how insane almost all people are driving their whole life and identity on attaining these achievements and possessions- it was all one big joke!

- during this experience I felt that the ‘I’ is definitely a useful concept, in that we can function in an orderly society, just like how time and space are useful concepts. But it was only a concept- which has gone mad and been over applied by the mind, which seems to be on a crazy mission to try dominate the world with this ‘I’ and is the cause of all personal suffering.

- the feeling of peace and acceptance arose from somewhere deep inside, which reminded me that feelings come from inside- despite what happens outside. A sunset can bring feelings or joy or sadness depending on the state of mind. But it is still a sunset.— as for what felt that feeling- I don’t know- that’s deep- I guess the beingness I talk about created or felt the feeling- I don’t know, but the feelings felt deep and familiar

- these feelings couldn’t happen to ‘I’ in reality because my mind just made up I. Therefore there is no one to awaken because there is no one to begin with- just a huge lie or delusion that there is this ‘I’ seeking the end of ‘I’.

This is pretty deep stuff, and i can feel my ‘I’ doesn’t know or like where this is going- perhaps a fear of realising my ‘I’ or ego is not needed or real- and all of the implications if this is realised from experience....

Not sure where to go with this..

Thanks

Seekerj