The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This guiding will help me understand that the thoughts and patterns I identify with are not me, and I am capable of being much more than just my thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guidance that will help me realise that there is much more to me than just my thoughts, and I can enjoy being in the present moment and allow everything to flow and not be bothered by it. Someone who understands this and will help me realise that there is something that is more than thoughts and emotions, addictions, negativity and suffering. All the things I have created in my head are not real, they are just mere illusions and how they affect my behaviour. At LU I am looking for a community of like minded people who want to be liberated and be happy in the present moment, maybe gain good friends. Learn more from experiences of others in the community and help myself to become happy and content.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think someone will ask me questions about myself which I have to answer honestly, where I would be guided to a point where I would realise that these are just my thoughts and there is something which can identify that these are just flowing thoughts and they are not real. I just have to step aside from the flow of thoughts and just witness them and not be swept away at every moment.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done vipassana and I practise anapana or breathing meditation sometimes. I have always had a strong belonging to knowing the real me, I believe that I am on my way learning something new everyday.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Good morning Mayank,

the thoughts and patterns I identify with

How does this identifying work?
What processes make up the identifying?

I am capable of being much more

When you are "much more", is there anything physical added?
What is it that is currently present that will be exceeded?

with love

vince

Hey Vince,

How does this identifying work?
What processes make up the identifying?

The flow of thought is always there, almost always it is so strong that I start to dwell in it. Mostly negative sometimes positive. They are repetitive and somewhere I know on an intellectual level that these are popping up in my head maybe because I am giving them so much importance and succumb to them every time. Very rarely when I realise its been too long that i've been caught up in thoughts and emotions, I can stop the process by not giving the thought enough attention and watching it pass away. I can feel these are just stories and speculations I have created to protect myself, as a defence mechanism. Next moment a thought comes and there i go chasing it again ...

When you are "much more", is there anything physical added?
What is it that is currently present that will be exceeded?

No i dont think anything physical is added, its just an understanding of non-identification.
Nothing that is currently present will be exceeded, Everything will still be the same, maybe I'll gain a new perspective of everything and start seeing things which were clouded by my own mental framework of everything based on the knowledge or experiences of people, things and situations in the past.

Good evening Mayank,

The flow of thought is always there, almost always it is so strong

What is the difference between a strong "flow of thought" and a weak one?
Are thoughts more than stories that you interact with?
Historically speaking, how does a come into existence?
Is there a relationship between a self and believing a particular story?

with love

vince

Hey Vince,

What is the difference between a strong "flow of thought" and a weak one?

When I start thinking about something be it either negative or positive which has a strong influence over me, so much that I cant escape the thought train. Now that I think about I dont think i have any weak thoughts. Its me who decides which one to cling on to. The one i do becomes stronger.

Are thoughts more than stories that you interact with?

Well most of them are just stories that I have created and give importance to, Very small amount are the ones which I think are important for critical decision making. These are the ones that I think are important at the moment to make a conscious choice, and when I am in the decision making phase, I dont have any other vague thoughts.

Historically speaking, how does a come into existence?

It just comes into existence on its own. Like they just pop up in my head randomly.

Is there a relationship between a self and believing a particular story?

Why is it so hard to answer this one. It just sparks more questions in me. Its like I just cant figure out who is the one believing in the story. Who is the self here?
Why do I have all these stories? Why do these stories have the power to hurt or make me happy. How come these thoughts have the power to turn themselves into words and actions. I am not sure if I understood your question completely. But I fail to see the two parties in this relationship.

Good evening Mayank,

When I start thinking about something ... which has a strong influence over me,

Can a thought have influence?
When you say "over me", describe this "me" that is being influenced.

Its me who decides which one to cling on to.

Where does this deciding originate?
..and previously you said "cant escape" the thoughts and you helplessly chase some of them. Now are you saying that you make a decision to give some thoughts importance?

with love

vince

Can a thought have influence?
When you say "over me", describe this "me" that is being influenced.

This me is the character Mayank, who is hurt when something doesn't happen his way or someone says something unpleasant that Mayank spends so much time and energy contemplating a reply. This character Mayank is a bunch of conditioning developed by my upbringing my surrounding. Mayank is made up of beliefs that he was told since childhood, he acquired by experience. The thoughts have influence over Mayank, but then again Mayank is also nothing but a bunch of thoughts. This is something that i understand, yet I am so used to this character that I cant differentiate myself from Mayank. This Mayank wants to please you through his answers because he is afraid of what you might think of Mayank. This Mayank wants to put up a good image of himself in front of everyone so they are happy with him.

Where does this deciding originate? Now are you saying that you make a decision to give some thoughts importance?

This deciding originates on its own, I start to have random thoughts then another thought comes which says that this thought seems intriguing, i should expand on it. Then another thought which sometimes criticises, followed by anxiety. Sometimes I can notice the effect of thoughts on my body, when I am anxious I can feel my heart racing my body getting heavy...and when I start noticing more the anxiety becomes stronger. This experience had made me realise that the mind and thoughts have an effect on body and they are interconnected. But how do I become the spectator and see the thoughts flow and not get carried away.

'morning Mayank, please answer all questions, and do them separately.

vince

Good afternoon Mayank,

This me is the character Mayank,

This tells me nothing. (except a label "Mayank")

who is hurt when something doesn't happen his way or someone says something unpleasant

This tells me that there is unpleasant sensations as a response to somebody else's story. Is this accurate?

This character Mayank is a bunch of conditioning

By this, i guess that you are saying that the conditioning manifests as habitual responses. Is this accurate?

Mayank is made up of beliefs that he was told since childhood

Language suggests that these "beliefs" are things, but they aren't, are they ?
What are they? (don't describe them as strong thoughts. Analyse them and describe their particular characteristics)

I am so used to this character that I cant differentiate myself from Mayank.

Is it possible that you aren't anything?
What if all that exists is a responding to stimulus ?

This Mayank wants to please you through his answers because he is afraid of what you might think of Mayank. This Mayank wants to put up a good image of himself in front of everyone so they are happy with him.

Is this a (story) stimulus designed to evoke a particular response?

This deciding originates on its own

Ah, excellent noticing.
Of course, there are no doubt many conditions that lead to this deciding, but they are too ill defined and numerous to be known, so saying that they just happen is another way of saying that their origins can't be known.

But how do I become the spectator and see the thoughts flow and not get carried away.

Ah this brings us to investigate 'doing'.
When we say that you do something, are we implying a conscious decision and control of outcomes?
What do you notice in your experiencing where you intend to do something but something else happens?

with love

vince

Hey Vince

This tells me that there is unpleasant sensations as a response to somebody else's story. Is this accurate?

Very accurate. Unpleasant sensation when somebody says or does something that is not according to what i expect of them.

By this, i guess that you are saying that the conditioning manifests as habitual responses. Is this accurate?

Agreed. Responses that are based on the habit patterns of my mind.

Language suggests that these "beliefs" are things, but they aren't, are they ?
What are they? (don't describe them as strong thoughts. Analyse them and describe their particular characteristics)

I don't think beliefs are things. Beliefs are nothing but thoughts that I identify with. They are deep so rooted in my subconscious that I am always engrossed in them. It's hard to disassociate with them. Most of the thoughts I have are based on these belief systems. For example, I had a visitor today who is a friend of my mother. I have an image a belief a though process about the lady, so everything she had to say was processed through these filters, and ultimately what I perceived was registered with respect to these background thoughts. what I replied was also based on these beliefs.

Is it possible that you aren't anything?

This question is enough to challenge this character Mayank and make him anxious about his own existence. This starts with a thought which question other thought. When I read this question, there is a brief silence, then thoughts starts flowing which question who am I ? if I am not anything what am I ? I don't know if I it possible that I am not anything. I know for a fact that I am experiencing something or the other at every moment, I respond, I react.

What if all that exists is a responding to stimulus ?

Are you referring to stimulus as the sense of taste, sight, hearing, touching, smelling and thoughts ? I think yes, when I am experiencing something through these 5 senses I am responding to them in a way that is pleasant or unpleasant. If I like the experience or not, and I do this through my beliefs and the thoughts that I am currently having.

Is this a (story) stimulus designed to evoke a particular response?

It sure is a story designed to evoke a response. It is developed mostly because of a fear of Mayank not being recognized, or appreciated or validated in eyes of others.

When we say that you do something, are we implying a conscious decision and control of outcomes?

When I am doing something, say writing this, I decide i want to write which is a thought. Whatever I write somewhat comes after I give it a thought. There is some conscious decision involved where I choose what to write or what not to. I have no control over the outcome. I just have expectations from the outcomes which in turn decide if I am satisfied or not, which results in me being happy or otherwise.

What do you notice in your experiencing where you intend to do something but something else happens?

Whenever I am doing something and I encounter a stimulus, my awareness or focus shift to this stimulus. Say I am eating and hear something in the other room , so my focus moves to the other room trying to figure out what could that have been. Then I come back to eating then a thought process has my attention. This external/internal stimulation has different effects in different situations. If I am extremely focused on the current task at hand, I don't get moved easily, its relatively easy to maintain focus. If I try to do something and something else happens that is not intended, i usually get agitated, frustrated.

Thanks a lot Vince, I feel I am starting to know myself a little better. But I have always had this understanding on a mental plane, the experience where I feel no-identification is missing.

Warm Regards,
Mayank

Good evening Mayank,

This tells me that there is unpleasant sensations as a response to somebody else's story. Is this accurate?

Very accurate. Unpleasant sensation when somebody says or does something that is not according to what i expect of them.

Could we go as far as to say that depending on how we interpret what others say, we could have a full range of emotional responses?

Responses that are based on the habit patterns of my mind.

Are those habit patterns from our interpretation of what is meant?

Beliefs are nothing but thoughts that I identify with.

When you say that you identify with them, do you mean that they fit the story of Mayank?

They are deep so rooted in my subconscious

Do you think that your subconscious is the result of past conditioning?

This question is enough to challenge this character Mayank ... then thoughts starts flowing which question who am I

Oh yes! Good work you.

if I am not anything what am I ?

Is there an inherent contradiction in this question?
If you're not a noun, is it possible that you are a verb. Another way to put this; If you're not a thing, is it possible that you are a process? (if it feels like your mind wants to turn inside out - embrace the pain of giving birth)

I know for a fact that I am experiencing something or the other at every moment, I respond, I react.

Perfect! This is the verb (the process) that you are. That experiencing is all that is. (i call it THIS)
Apart from experiencing, is there anything that you can directly know? Anything that is not ABOUT something? That is not concept?

Are you referring to stimulus as the sense of taste, sight, hearing, touching, smelling and thoughts ? I think yes, when I am experiencing something through these 5 senses I am responding to them in a way that is pleasant or unpleasant. If I like the experience or not, and I do this through my beliefs and the thoughts that I am currently having.

Yes,yes,yes!

the experience where I feel no-identification is missing.

Hahaha...

with great love

vince

Good Evening Vince,

I am enjoying this process of self enquiry. I feel like everything is just behind the curtain. Yet so far.

Could we go as far as to say that depending on how we interpret what others say, we could have a full range of emotional responses?

Absolutely correct. Whatever others say, there is an emotional response with respect to how Mayank sees it. All the responses are caused by this mind chatter which is commenting on everything. The registry of an event is also based on what this mind chatter has to say about the event. Even when I try to remember any past memory, all I remember is what I felt at that moment, what the commenting has to say about that event, and it then triggers the same emotions what I felt when it was actually happening.

Are those habit patterns from our interpretation of what is meant?

When I see it, it goes both ways, i dont know if I am wrong here but, how I interpret is based on the past habbit patterns and I form new one on what I interpret. I dont know if that even makes sense.

When you say that you identify with them, do you mean that they fit the story of Mayank?

Absolutely right.

Do you think that your subconscious is the result of past conditioning?

I think subconscious is based on what I have accumulated all throughout my existence and gradually started to believe it to be true. I reinforce them because whenever I am in a situation I have thoughts based on past conditioning. I feel I still make new conditionings even now, I always see the reality with this filter of thoughts.

if I am not anything what am I ?
Is there an inherent contradiction in this question?

Yes there absolutely is. To be honest, this confuses me, what am I looking for ? What is there to look ? This is just a thought.

If you're not a noun, is it possible that you are a verb. Another way to put this; If you're not a thing, is it possible that you are a process?

For some reason this is easy to accept. I could be a process. A process that observes something emerge and pass away. A process that comes before I start slapping labels on what I experience through the 5 senses ( 6 if you include the thoughts ).
This is very easy to understand on an intellectual level for me. Then thoughts that question this: REALLY? THIS SOUNDS CONVINCING ? BUT HOW DO I SEE THIS PROCESS ? . Its like I am challenging something that I myself want to believe.

Apart from experiencing, is there anything that you can directly know? Anything that is not ABOUT something? That is not concept?

NO. A silence followed when I read this. There is just experience of something. The way I see it, i experience something, but then instantly start labelling it with respect to what I know about it. Example: Right now I am sitting underneath a ceiling fan, Closing my eyes, Initially when I pay attention to my senses, I feel the breeze and hear the sound the fan makes, then I have thoughts ABOUT the Fan itself, how its rotating, where it is located, I start to imagine the fan rotating. There is nothing apart from direct experience that I know and feel, rest everything is just a thought process around it. How do I stop doing that ?


Few things I want to ask you Vince, am I doing it correctly? I don't want to mess this up, by

Vince I am really grateful to you for the time you take out to help me. I really appreciate it :)
I must say I am really enjoying all these questions you give me, its like you somehow know where I stand and what I am thinking.

Good night Vince.

Good evening Mayank,

I feel like everything is just behind the curtain. Yet so far.

I remember that feeling. ..and yes, so far, but much nearer than you think. Closer than the nose on your face.

To be honest, this confuses me, what am I looking for ? What is there to look ?

When you have questions, you feel sure that there must be answers. Can you imagine that it is ok to have questions that have no answers?
What if the resolution to questions isn't answers, but the evaporation of questions?

For some reason this is easy to accept. I could be a process. A process that observes something emerge and pass away. A process that comes before I start slapping labels on what I experience

Exactly. If the totality of you is the experiencing that happens, and this experiencing is one thing before labelling happens and another after interpretation defines labels, then that interpretation defines Mayank and everybody else and the whole world. Can it be trusted to be accurate?

Apart from experiencing, is there anything that you can directly know? Anything that is not ABOUT something? That is not concept?

NO. A silence followed when I read this. There is just experience of something.

Silence here too...

BUT HOW DO I SEE THIS PROCESS ?

You see it for what it is. An illusion that is the result of a lifetime of conditioning. Before you recognized it as an illusion, it was a delusion. It was a delusion because you believed it to be real. You thought that it was actual. In the beginning your experiencing is the same, but now you know that your interpretation is a story and that what is actual is unknowable. A mystery.
i say "in the beginning", because experiencing changes as you become more relaxed with living in a giant mystery.

Few things I want to ask you Vince, am I doing it correctly?

You are doing brilliantly Mayank. i can't tell you how excited i am for you. It's like i am waking up again too.
When doubts occur, are they more than thoughts before you respond to them?

with much love

vince

Morning Vince,

Hope you are doing good !!

Saw your reply late last night. I gave it a good read and few things clicked instantly, it was late night so decided to sleep on it.
Will be working little late , Will surely write to you later today.
As you are 5:30 hrs ahead of me, you might get the reply even later.
Just wanted you to know that I am completely committed to this and really enjoying the journey so far. Your words spark so much question and curiosity. Will give all questions good time and try to write an honest reply.

Warm regards Vince.
Have a good day

When you have questions, you feel sure that there must be answers. Can you imagine that it is ok to have questions that have no answers?
What if the resolution to questions isn't answers, but the evaporation of questions?

To be honest its hard to comprehend when you say that resolution to questions isn't answers, but the evaporation of questions and at the same time I get it somehow.

Exactly. If the totality of you is the experiencing that happens, and this experiencing is one thing before labelling happens and another after interpretation defines labels, then that interpretation defines Mayank and everybody else and the whole world. Can it be trusted to be accurate?

I understand on a mental level what you are trying to say here and at the same time also see that I am still falling for it . While I am doing something ( experiencing something ) i am either already viewing it or doing it with respect to the character Mayank or as soon as I am done with something I label it as Mayank did it. I just cant be there just experiencing anything without adding some story to it. How do I keep myself focused on the experience and see that the background story is not real, and not to associate any of it with the pure experience. Is there anything that I can do that will help me accomplish this throughout the regular day ? I tried to do this today, I tried to bring my attention to my senses in a situation, but I could do that just for for a fraction of a second, even that was not just pure experiencing I was still looking it through my filters in just another moment. The story is just not accurate, it tries to manipulate reality to something which I want to see. I feel like a prisoner who can see that the gate is open for him, but the illusion of a wall is there keeping me trapped inside.

You see it for what it is. An illusion that is the result of a lifetime of conditioning. Before you recognized it as an illusion, it was a delusion. It was a delusion because you believed it to be real. You thought that it was actual. In the beginning your experiencing is the same, but now you know that your interpretation is a story and that what is actual is unknowable. A mystery.
i say "in the beginning", because experiencing changes as you become more relaxed with living in a giant mystery.

Just by reading this, I realise what a lot of my delusions are and how it has affects my life throughout. How I act or treat people and how I doubt that they are conspiring against me or cheating with me, or what are they thinking about me or how the person is and a lot more... By trying to figure out where it all starts, I can see that it all starts with a thought that I repeat so much to a point that I start to believe that thought to be real and start to perceive lot of thing through this conspiring thought. This Mayank right now hates this idea, that all his theories and beliefs can be false, he wants to latch on to it even more tightly, Mayank is so sure that all these beliefs and delusions are true. I can see that Mayank has developed this to protect himself from what he thinks might harm this Mayank or hurt him in any way.

When doubts occur, are they more than thoughts before you respond to them?

No, doubts first occur as a thought then another thought that says that it might be true then a train of thoughts about how the doubt is real. I just cant let the thought of doubt be on its own, I (Mayank) have to back it up or analyse it, or do something about it, which then ends up being a whole 5 minute long session on how it can be real. Right now I have a feeling which says that I didn't work on this properly today, and another thought blames it on the lack of time i had ( which I think is Mayank trying to protect myself ).

Vince I am glad you think I am doing good work here, I am really enjoying working with you it, its like I am getting to know myself better each day, something I never did, all my life I have been thinking of this Mayank as everything true, but now I have started to realise slowly that its all made up, even though its on a mental level. I am excited to dig deep and get around this Mayank character.

Good Night mate.
Looking forward to looking more.