The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Helping others who have identified with this ''I'' or the illusory middle man who seems to be controlling the narrative of life

What are you looking for at LU?
help, support and guidance from life, realizing the seemingly unrealizable and deal with the aftermath of losing the identification with this ''I'' if support is available i would love it as well and appreciate too

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a concrete, tangible guided way of realizing the ''I'' because it seems like the apparent appearance now is that there is some kind of identifying again and it's becoming loud and feels like there's fear of dropping the ''I'' that wasn't even there to begin with. Hope that makes sense.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a seeker for quite some time now. This year, it dropped but the sense of ''I'' is kind of taking some ownership through thought arising and emotions being accompanied by it. I have been religious, new agey, radical nondualist and this I is so clinging to the ownership that it did everything

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

Can we agree on these? YES! Sure and thank you so much

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
The expectation for the realisation for me is the release of triggered anger with those who hasn't realised this yet.
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self? The benefit of losing the sense of self-importance and the belief of having a separate self's too much attachments to life's pleasures and avoidance of pain. Once there is no self, life just happens. Thoughts, emotions, sensations, perceptions, and experience just happens without an experiencer - this will help let everything flow
What would stay the same? Life stays the same. life is life. Work, sleep, eat, interacting with others, life remains just as is it - just life ''life-ing'' itself
What you do not want to happen? I am not really sure what I don't want to happen. I feel like the closest answer to this is the feeling of being ''stucked''. Like the feeling of ''now this, then what?''

To add on what I have mentioned from my answers earlier, this could help more . . .

Like what if I am just adding a layer of belief from somewhere?
Also, this is the biggest question I have.... like how is it that the free will we think we have is not really there...
Like it seems like i am choosing to sit down and stand up or lie down or drink water. . . it is me choosing to do things...
if i am sad, i will cry or watch a movie... it is me doing the choosing and choosing the doing . . .

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.

So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

The expectation for the realisation for me is the release of triggered anger with those who hasn't realised this yet.

This is a good one :) What does your triggered anger have to do with seeing that there is no self? Often people believe that when the self is seen through, all the conditionings just automatically vanish. But unfortunately, this is not how it is.
There are many beliefs holding together the emotional reactions. These all have roots in childhood, as emotional wounds, what needs to be dealt with separately.

We all have traumas; it cannot be escaped. So something happened in the past, which was perceived as traumatic at that time, and based on those experiences other beliefs of yourself have developed. Now, these beliefs are actively working under the radar, and being projected onto current circumstances of life, causing the same type of emotions that were present at the time of the early trauma/wound. After about the age of 6-8, we hardly experience any new emotions, rather the old emotions are recycled, replayed constantly, by projecting the original emotional response to current circumstances.

The benefit of losing the sense of self-importance and the belief of having a separate self's too much attachments to life's pleasures and avoidance of pain.

Seeing through the self and not resisting what is are not the same. Resistance of what is (wanting pleasure, and resisting pain) still goes on after the self is seen for what it is. Resistance is the result of many-many years of conditionings and it’s based on many other beliefs that is keeping it going. Resistance is not just about a self. A huge web of beliefs holding the structure together. But this can be looked at and undone with further investigation. When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

Once there is no self, life just happens. Thoughts, emotions, sensations, perceptions, and experience just happens without an experiencer - this will help let everything flow

The thing is that this is already how it is. Things already flow by themselves, life just already happens. There is already no doer, although thoughts might suggest otherwise :) So this is already how it, it has never been any other way. By this inquiry, this fact can be recognized.

Also, this is the biggest question I have.... like how is it that the free will we think we have is not really there...
Like it seems like i am choosing to sit down and stand up or lie down or drink water. . . it is me choosing to do things...

It’s not that I don’t have free will…. it’s worse than that :) there is no I in the first place to have free will or any kind of will. Can you see the difference?

if i am sad, i will cry or watch a movie... it is me doing the choosing and choosing the doing . . .

This might SEEMS like that, just as a mirage in the desert could seem to be an oasis. But a seeming thing is not a real thing. A seeming oasis, is not a real oasis. Just a play of light. Just as a seeming I is nothing else but a play of thoughts.

realizing the seemingly unrealizable and deal with the aftermath of losing the identification with this ''I''

What makes you think that after seeing that there is no separate self, then there is an aftermath? It’s sounds as an aftermath of a war… it’s not a pretty sight… this is what you think? That it won’t be pretty? If yes, why?

losing the identification with this ''I''

Do you think that there is another I that could lose its identity with the other I? A more real I, or a more real self?
What if there is only one I, one self, and that is totally illusionary, just as the mirage in the desert?

The reason for those questions were to find out what expectations you have how it would be like or feel like when the separate self is seen through. Many have the idea that it’s a special state of bliss, happiness, peace and constant ease; and a happy state has to be present as evidence of having had the realization. But the realization is often quite subtle, and it can be hidden by expectations. When there is any sort of expectation, there is a comparison between the preconceived ideas of what it should be like and what is seen, with the conclusion “This not IT”.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

What name would you like me to call you?

You can call me Lee

There are many beliefs holding together the emotional reactions. These all have roots in childhood, as emotional wounds, what needs to be dealt with separately.

Yeah, I definitely understand. It's just hard to piece it together with the no free will thing - it seems like whatever is happening has to happen and whatever will happen will happen. So it looks like the healing is going to be consciously worked on my ''me'' and I have been working on it for a long time now and have improved so far. The thing is, if there's no ''I'', the healing that will take place shall take place in its own time no matter the effort or the illusory effort on my end.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes i agree on this

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

I am so ready! if there are things that come up, i will add to this reply below... i think i have to read your answers again and see if questions come up. is that alright?

Hi Lee,

if there are things that come up, i will add to this reply below... i think i have to read your answers again and see if questions come up. is that alright?

Yes, of course. Actually, it’s always important to spend a whole day with each post, and to investigate the same thing again. Especially, when we start doing the inquiry.

But you don’t have to come up with a question… since I cannot give you answers to you since that would be just an intellectual understanding for you. What I can give you is pointers, questions, that helps to see it for yourself.

Please deeply consider each of the questions I gave you in my previous post. Let me know what you find.
Don’t have to rush, just stay with those questions for a whole day, considering them.

Vivien

Upon contemplating... the ''no doer'' seems like a struggle to me.
I know conceptually that thoughts arise, feelings are felt, actions are done.
And it is really a strong conviction that I am the one deciding to do these things. It seems like ''Lee'' is such a strong identity attachments of my mind. It feels like I am totally accountable for my life and for my actions which i know I really am. But sometimes I look back and realize that all things that arose in my life happened exactly as it should and it cannot be any other way.

The fear arising is the pre-ordained nature of life. Things will unfold as it is appearing and no one chooses how the arising will happen. I experimented on it. let's say in silence, I do not choose the next thought to come up. BUT... there would be times I feel as if I am the one generating the thoughts as the thinker of it. Say I want to think of imagining having lots of money or having a partner, I imagine it and daydream about it all day.

On the flipside, when i am at peace in the experiential paradigm of no-doership, it gives me peace of mind that things will happen exactly as it should and I have no control or worry over them.

Just a bit of background about me, I grew with so many belief systems from Catholic religion, new age past life karma studies, reincarnation and shamanism and channeling, plus the advaita vedanta, esoteric stuff, neo advaita radical nothing is happening here, and many more... and I do feel like these accumulated knowledge are hindrances as well.

Hope this all makes sense and it isn't frustrating and I aplogize if it is. Thank you for being patient with me in guiding me through this one.

Hi Lee,

BUT... there would be times I feel as if I am the one generating the thoughts as the thinker of it. Say I want to think of imagining having lots of money or having a partner, I imagine it and daydream about it all day.

Let’s investigate if this is really true :) if there is actually something done to think. Or thoughts just appear on their own.

Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience before any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Just a bit of background about me, I grew with so many belief systems from Catholic religion, new age past life karma studies, reincarnation and shamanism and channeling, plus the advaita vedanta, esoteric stuff, neo advaita radical nothing is happening here, and many more... and I do feel like these accumulated knowledge are hindrances as well.

They are hindrances only if you focus on them with the belief that you have to find something what those beliefs systems are about. Just simply ignore them. Just turn your attention to your own experience.

Vivien

What do you do exactly in order to think?

In order to think... I concentrate or consciously think if what I want to think about. However, I notice that thoughts appear and change by themselves throughout the day. It seems like they effortlessly arise from memory. They come up when I remember something. I was washing the dishes and thoughts just come and go and pass by in my awareness. Sometimes there are no thoughts (Is that even possible?) well, when there'd be no thoughts or i am spaced out, that's when i feel like i can control the next thought i wish to choose to arise.


How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
I bring thoughts to existence by choosing a specific one from the collection of thoughts from memory. Like if i want to recall childhood memories, that's the thoughts i choose... BUT when I am busy in action, thoughts just happen and i have no control over them at all..

Hi Lee,

In order to think... I concentrate or consciously think if what I want to think about.

OK, so you described what is happening, but not HOW.?
So HOW do you consciously think or concentrate?
And HOW do you choose what you want to concentrate on?

Is there a storage place somewhere, where you go to, and look around, and chose and pick what you want to think next?

I bring thoughts to existence by choosing a specific one from the collection of thoughts from memory.

So you say you got a storage place called ‘memory’, you look around there, and then what?
Can you see all the memories there, like presented on shelves in a shop?
So all of them is available…and then just choose one?

And when you choose, HOW do you make the choice itself? Please be very specific, but make sure that you describe just the raw facts, without adding anything extra.

This questions might sound funny or even silly, but just notice but this is what we are stating when we say that I choose from memory. But you look closer, is this really how it is?

Is there really a place where memories are stored? Or is this just an unquestioned assumption?

And is there really an intentional or conscious choice is make from the full repertoire of options?
Or this is just another unquestioned assumption?

Vivien

OK, so you described what is happening, but not HOW.?
So HOW do you consciously think or concentrate?
And HOW do you choose what you want to concentrate on?

I experimented on doing this today. I consciously think is similar to being aware that I am breathing. Ona day to day, I do not focus my attention on every inhale and every exhale but once I catch myself, I can do breathing while consciously aware of the breath. Same with concentrating. I can go do my thing day by day and not become aware of the thoughts that come and go but whenever I catch myself. I can concentrate or focus on let's say the plates i am washing with no thoughts other than the experience of washing the plate. However, I noticed that I tried focusing on let's say a toothbrush... i concentrate... i look at the toothbrush and even concentrating on it or looking at it directly with no other thoughts about anything but the toothbrush. The only thought is '' I am now staring at a toothbrush'' I silently concentrate on one thing and in the background sometimes, some random thoughts appear. I feel like i am struggling with this. I don't know how to answer the ''how'' but i tried with the best that i can...

Is there a storage place somewhere, where you go to, and look around, and chose and pick what you want to think next?
I bring thoughts to existence by choosing a specific one from the collection of thoughts from memory.
So you say you got a storage place called ‘memory’, you look around there, and then what?
Can you see all the memories there, like presented on shelves in a shop?
So all of them is available…and then just choose one?

In terms of storage... there is no physical or tangible storage where memories are stored. But there's an idea of it. Like I can remember things that I did when I was 9 but not all of it. I can recall some events that happened in the past but not all. When it comes to choosing, I can say that I can only choose a thought if someone ask me to consciously recall one. Say if someone ask me ''what did you remember last Christmas celebration?'' Then I will go down the memory lane and try recalling the event. So sometimes it's triggered by a question and sometimes it just appears.

And when you choose, HOW do you make the choice itself? Please be very specific, but make sure that you describe just the raw facts, without adding anything extra.

This is my experience today. Thoughts arise like ''I want to drink coffee.'' Then I said mentally '' I'll just drink tomorrow instead.'' So it feels like there is some kind of a choice to drink coffeee and not drink coffee. But i also sat quietly and noticed that in silence there's be like times where there is no thought but then followed by thoughts that i don't know how it arises or why it arises.

This questions might sound funny or even silly, but just notice but this is what we are stating when we say that I choose from memory. But you look closer, is this really how it is?

i am honestly still struggling with this one...

Is there really a place where memories are stored? Or is this just an unquestioned assumption?
And is there really an intentional or conscious choice is make from the full repertoire of options?
Or this is just another unquestioned assumption?

same with these... i could really kind of experience the choosing the thoughts that comes... i keep trying but i cannot sometimes fathom the non-choosing of it... something like that...

Hi Lee,

I consciously think is similar to being aware that I am breathing. Ona day to day, I do not focus my attention on every inhale and every exhale but once I catch myself, I can do breathing while consciously aware of the breath. Same with concentrating.

But HOW do you concentrate?
HOW do you put your attention to the breath?

You are saying that what you do, but you are not saying HOW. Focus on the HOW, and then tell me HOW you put your focus onto something, and HOW you concentrate.

i concentrate...

HOW do you concentrate? What do you do EXACTLY to concentrate on something?

I don't know how to answer the ''how'' but i tried with the best that i can...

Isn’t that telling? Thoughts make all sort of statements, that “I do this”, “I concentrate”, “I focus my attention on…”…. But is this really how it is? Or these are just investigated thoughts, taken for granted?

In terms of storage... there is no physical or tangible storage where memories are stored. But there's an idea of it.

Exactly. There is only an idea of it. That’s all.

Now, let’s look at…. Is an idea a REAL thing in reality? Or an idea is just a concept, but not a real thing?

Is the idea/thought of a chair a real chair?
Can you sit on the thought ‘chair’? Why not?

So the word/thought ‘chair’ POINTS TO a real think in experience that you can sit on. Can you see that?
But you cannot sit onto the thought/idea ‘chair’, right?

So, what about memory. It’s another thought/idea. What does the word/thought/idea point to in reality?
Does it point to just more thoughts, more ideas, or does it point to real thing, a real place?

Or investigation will be based on looking at your immediate or direct experience in the moment. What is there regardless of thoughts. What is left (what is actually there) when you stop thinking about it.

It’s important to distinguish between what can be experienced in the moment - via the senses - and what is content of thought, meaning added.

DE (direct experience): color, sound, taste, smell, sensation (what can be known via the senses directly)
Everything else is ADDED as a thought.

What we are doing here is to see what is actually experienced and what is just an ADDED thought story, so we can see the difference between reality/experience and thought/fiction.

Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.

If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience anything else than colour, sound, smells, taste, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts (as a phenomenon, but not the content)?
Does this sum it up? Is there anything else?

Then I will go down the memory lane and try recalling the event.

Is there really a memory lane in reality? Can you observe it?
Can you see it? Feel it? Hear it? Taste it? Smell it?
Or you can only ever think of it and imagine it?

Vivien

This is what I did yesterday... I looked closely to life. and I can see it. I feel it. I sense it. I smell it. I think it. In my direct experience I see people, places, things and even my own body. I touch I sense and all of that. The only thing intangible to me are my thoughts. My thoughts that pops in and out without me having to do anything. Thoughts are called thoughts out of thoughts. I mean how did i find out that thoughts are named by thoughts? I looked at it. People thought of an imaginary something from the mind and later on called it thoughts. Thoughts are the brain invisible air produced by mind and i cannot touch it see it grasp it but only through my brain or mind. It is invisible. So basically, I exist as a robot with senses. Lee is real in the realm of the 5 senses.

If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience anything else than colour, sound, smells, taste, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts (as a phenomenon, but not the content)?
Does this sum it up? Is there anything else?

That's all there is to experience. Thoughts thought are real when it comes to thinking it. My experience are flavored by the thoughts. I won't know if i see green if the thought didn;t say it's green. My smeel won't recognize perfume if thoughts didn't say so. My words are nothing without thoughts. I sense that thoughts are the drivers to my actions. And I still am stucked with the choosing the thought so the action is followed by Lee choosing the thought that comes....