The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The “I” that I have lived as for my 28 year life is not the real “me”, but instead it’s just my thoughts/emotions/perceptions that I easily got caught up in. I live “my” life as two separate categories. ~95% being fully engrossed and captivated by my thoughts/perceptions/etc. ~5% snapping out of it and remembering this other "awareness".

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone who I can have a discussion with, who can push me and ask questions that might encourage me to push past some of the hurdles I have with my current self inquiry. Specifically, I am looking for someone who has been through similar intellectual vs experiential struggles (or can relate in some capacity). It’s very hard for me to find people in “real life” to discuss these things with, and when I watch talks/read books, I feel like it only further pushes my intellectual understanding, but I have trouble “being there” to equate what they are saying to my actually momentary experience.

Until I discovered that there was a whole community of people that also had similar feelings, I would refer to this temporary “waking up” and realizing that I had been fully engulfed in my thoughts as a “pocket of self understanding”. I didn’t (and don't) fully know what that means, but to me, there were always these two categories of life - pockets and not-pockets. After finding that there were other people who were very interested in this distinction (or a distinction much greater than this), I began reading as much content (Rupert Spira, Daniel Ingram, Culudasa, Ajahn Brahm, Moojiji, hundreds of guides here), and have become extremely determined to experientially /know/ all of these concepts that, from what I can tell, make conceptual/intellectual understanding to me.

I think this has been one of my biggest roadblocks. Because one shared principle between all the readings I have done have been that thinking/imagining/conceptually-understanding this “knowing” can be a dead end. So while I feel like I have certainly expanded my desire/intention to experience this, I feel as though I may be hampering my own progress.

Even when writing down this response, there have been so many times where I caught myself slipping back into the thoughts/feelings/emotions writing the message, and not “me” writing the message. Even typing the word “I” and “I think”, etc. feels like it’s a conceptual thing and not an experiential thing, if that makes any sense.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would be very grateful for someone who is patient, but stern to find specific traps that I’m falling into around intellectual vs. experiential. I would also appreciate being able to ask very specific questions about my experience as we progress. Thank you very much for this resource.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read many resources, watched many talks, read many of the guides on this site. I meditate about 1 hour a day (following the teaching of The Mind Illuminated), additionally, I practice some Mahasi style noting, as well as informal self-inquiry based on recorded talks by Rupert Spira. Throughout the day, I try to find “pockets of awareness” as often as possible, and keep them open for as long as I can before I slip back into the day-to-day. I have also followed the advice through many of the guides on this site, and followed them as individuals discussed their journey with their guides.

Also, to be fully transparent about next question;
My gut reaction is to say 10, but to be completely honest, I think that if it was truly a 10, then I would be spending considerably more time getting to the bottom of this, instead of procrastinating/finding excuses to only spend a couple hours a day. So I am having trouble answering this question. When I really force myself to acknowledge the present moment, “questioning my currently held beliefs of self” feels like it is happening regardless of my willingness. But the fact that the vast majority of my life is not exclusively in my current experience feels conflicting.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

Hi

The topic title concerns a lot of the seekers. The question is posed in terms like : "I understand the whole picture but I don't experience it" The truth is that : the experience is trully here now but beliefs are different from the experience.

I am here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to be respected during the dialog :

Give answers once a day :take a look he even if you don't receive an email or a notification
Be honest with yourself, that means the answer is given after having seen the truth of it with 100 % certainty.
Look at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations) before giving an answer
Let aside all books, audios and videos about religion, spirituality, advaita, ... during the dialog
Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function.

Let me know when you are ready to go ahead.

Warissem

Hi Warissem, thank you very much for your prompt response, and for sharing your time/energy.

Give answers once a day :take a look he even if you don't receive an email or a notification
Be honest with yourself, that means the answer is given after having seen the truth of it with 100 % certainty.
Look at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations) before giving an answer
Let aside all books, audios and videos about religion, spirituality, advaita, ... during the dialog
Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function.

Understood. To clarify, should I stop doing my daily concentration meditation practice as well? I am happy to do so, but just wanted to clarify the expectations to ensure we are on the same page.

Thanks again, I am very much ready to proceed.

Hi pockets

That's OK for your meditation practice.

Now, we'll speak about expectations :

What are you expecting after having seen that there is no you, no separate self ?

What changes are you expecting in your every day life ?

Warissem

Thanks again for engaging with me here, what a great resource.

What are you expecting after having seen that there is no you, no separate self ?

I have a loose understanding of what I expect from descriptions others have given, but when I truly try to put those to the side, it’s very hard to say what I actually expect. I guess the best description would be “prolonged states of being /here/”. When I try to just experience raw sensations in the exact moment of now, I am “here” for an instant, but not long enough to really feel immersed/present. The thoughts and labels come so incredibly quickly, that I almost don't even have a sense for what those sensations really /are/. It feels like I go from processing a sight/smell/feeling to analyzing that sight/smell/feeling so quickly, that there almost isn’t a distinction between the two concepts.

So I guess my expectation would be that I can better separate the awareness from the encroaching thoughts and witness without all the other /stuff/ happening.

What changes are you expecting in your every-day life ?

The ability/state of accepting whatever currently is, and remove/reduce/comprehend the mental commentary.

Hi pockets

Thanks again for engaging with me here, what a great resource.

You are welcome.

I have a loose understanding of what I expect from descriptions others have given, but when I truly try to put those to the side, it’s very hard to say what I actually expect. I guess the best description would be “prolonged states of being /here/”. When I try to just experience raw sensations in the exact moment of now, I am “here” for an instant, but not long enough to really feel immersed/present. The thoughts and labels come so incredibly quickly, that I almost don't even have a sense for what those sensations really /are/. It feels like I go from processing a sight/smell/feeling to analyzing that sight/smell/feeling so quickly, that there almost isn’t a distinction between the two concepts.

You are always being here 24/7. There is no need to prolong something. Yes there are sensations, thoughts and labels, it is normal and ordinary.

So I guess my expectation would be that I can better separate the awareness from the encroaching thoughts and witness without all the other /stuff/ happening.

What is awareness in your own words ? Can a thought be separated from the knowing of it ?

The ability/state of accepting whatever currently is, and remove/reduce/comprehend the mental commentary.

Who or what is expecting this state of accepting ?


Warissem

You are always being here 24/7. There is no need to prolong something. Yes there are sensations, thoughts and labels, it is normal and ordinary.

I only /feel/ here when I am making a conscious "effort" or when something spurs me to be mindful of my sensations/thoughts. I believe that I must be "here" 24/7, but it feels categorically different in my experience, even though, logically I "know" there are no periods of existence where I am not aware. If I am fully immersed in thinking to the extent that I completely forget everything else (and completely forget that I am thinking), is that really being "here"?

I apologize, I'm having trouble expressing these experiences very well.

What is awareness in your own words ?

Awareness is the recognition/observation of the processing of thoughts & sensations. To me, it doesn’t seem like awareness is the thoughts and sensations themselves.

Can a thought be separated from the knowing of it ?

I think I know what the answer is supposed to be… but I have trouble recognizing that in my own experience.

In my experience it feels like there are:
1) thoughts that pass by, sometimes for hours and hours without conscious recognition
2) a snap into awareness, where I recognize/observe the current thought, and can backtrack through some of the thoughts that were happening during 1)

Who or what is expecting this state of accepting?

I sat with this one for a period of time, and what I found was that the “expecting” is coming from thoughts/desires, which I can witness (through my definition of awareness). When I tried to witness what was witnessing these thoughts and desires, I couldn’t find it. While looking, I was more cognizant of thoughts coming up, but I wasn’t able to stop the thoughts or catch exactly when they were starting/ending.

Thanks! Looking forward to your response.

Hi pockets

I sat with this one for a period of time, and what I found was that the “expecting” is coming from thoughts/desires, which I can witness (through my definition of awareness).

Then you tried to see if there is a witness and you give the answer below :

When I tried to witness what was witnessing these thoughts and desires, I couldn’t find it. While looking, I was more cognizant of thoughts coming up, but I wasn’t able to stop the thoughts or catch exactly when they were starting/ending.

Yes, there is no witnesser to be found. Are you a thinker of thoughts ?

Can you chose thoughts ?

Is there a separate self driving the show ?

Give answers after having looked for a half a day.

Warissem

Hi there Warissem,

Thanks for your patience. I have spent time with your questions today.

Yes, there is no witnesser to be found. Are you a thinker of thoughts ?

Despite the fact that I cannot find a witnesser, it still feels like there is witnessing taking place because there is recognition of thoughts (that feel distinct from /something else/). I can observe that I am not the actual thoughts... because if I was the thoughts, then how would I be experiencing them?

Can you choose thoughts ?

I can direct my attention to a specific sensation/object, which will guide my thoughts in a direction. It feels like I can temporarily encourage or force a thought to happen, but only for a short period of time before it changes. After looking very closely, I cannot witness the exact act of changing, but afterwards (sometimes almost instantly) I can perceive that the thought has changed.


For example, this morning, for a period of time, I put all my attention to the present moment of the physical sensations of the feet with the intention of perceiving those sensations as long as possible. I could track that within a couple seconds, my present-moment attention shifted to the darkness of my closed eyes. I very quickly recognized that my attention shifted, so I re-focused on my feet, then felt a thought of frustration, followed by recognition of my attention being on the emotion of frustration, and so forth. This all happens in very rapid succession. I repeated this process for an hour.

Is there a separate self driving the show ?

No one is driving the show, the show is happening always. 90% of my day I forget there is even a show, and when I do spontaneously remember, I realize that even though I wasn’t actively aware during that period of time prior to “waking up”, that the show was still going on nonetheless. When I do remember there is a show, I try to process just the visceral sensations I am experiencing, but almost immediately find myself adding labels/sinking into thoughts.

Hi pockets

Despite the fact that I cannot find a witnesser, it still feels like there is witnessing taking place because there is recognition of thoughts (that feel distinct from /something else/).

Yes, there is witnessing but no witnesser The thoughts and knowing of them are like the clouds and the sky.

I can observe that I am not the actual thoughts... because if I was the thoughts, then how would I be experiencing them?

Sure what is observing thoughts is not a thought.

I can direct my attention to a specific sensation/object, which will guide my thoughts in a direction. It feels like I can temporarily encourage or force a thought to happen, but only for a short period of time before it changes. After looking very closely, I cannot witness the exact act of changing, but afterwards (sometimes almost instantly) I can perceive that the thought has changed.

I give you an exercise to do : close your eyes and look at your thoughts. Take a list A and a list B on a sheet of paper, then write down all the personal thoughts in the list A and the other thoughts in the list B. Don’t send the lists to the forum, just give answers to these questions after having looked during a while :
Where thoughts are coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

For example, this morning, for a period of time, I put all my attention to the present moment of the physical sensations of the feet with the intention of perceiving those sensations as long as possible. I could track that within a couple seconds, my present-moment attention shifted to the darkness of my closed eyes. I very quickly recognized that my attention shifted, so I re-focused on my feet, then felt a thought of frustration, followed by recognition of my attention being on the emotion of frustration, and so forth. This all happens in very rapid succession. I repeated this process for an hour.

Yes, we’ll speak about attention later in this dialog.

No one is driving the show, the show is happening always. 90% of my day I forget there is even a show, and when I do spontaneously remember, I realize that even though I wasn’t actively aware during that period of time prior to “waking up”, that the show was still going on nonetheless. When I do remember there is a show, I try to process just the visceral sensations I am experiencing, but almost immediately find myself adding labels/sinking into thoughts.

You used “I” a lot of times : I forget, I remember, I realize, I wasn't ..., I try, I am experiencing, I find myself adding labels, ... would you look at this “I” and describe it for me ?

Warissem

Hi Warissem, hope all is well in your world! Responses inline:

Where thoughts are coming from and going to?

My thoughts are appearing mostly spontaneously, unless I put effort into guiding one to a certain place. They don't feel like they are going anywhere in particular. They are constantly changing/morphing. At some arbitrary point the line is drawn between an old thought and a new thought. When I look as closely as possible at that line, I find nothing -- no distinction, no trigger, no catalyst.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, thoughts appear regardless of my intention, though my intention does seem to directly alter them, at least temporarily.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Hmm this was difficult for me to answer, I returned to it throughout the day. /Future/ thoughts can be guided/encouraged in a direction, but the current thought just is whatever is.

Can you predict your next thought?

By the time I am tried to predict a thought, the prediction itself felts like a thought. The first thing I did when I read this statement was to try to predict what would come next. I closed my eyes, and the first thought that I perceived was “I wonder what it will be”, which I then realized was itself a thought. I also had a hard time distinguishing sensations and thoughts during this exercise. For example, I would close my eyes waiting to “receive my next thought” and I would notice the blackness behind my eyes. Is that a thought? Or is that a sensation? Or is it both? I had a lot of trouble with this question -- I will continue to try to have a more precise answer from my experience.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I cannot do this with certainty, however my intentions seem to allow the ratio of pleasant:unpleasant thoughts to be improved when I intend to do so. So I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying that I can “pick” any thought, but “I” don't feel utterly powerless when watching the thought-movie.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. When I intend to prevent a thought, I either immediate “think” about that intention (which is a thought), or I have another random thought take hold. I can’t find the absence of anything whatsoever.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In my experience these “meta thoughts” (thoughts about the nature of thoughts) feel distinct and separate from other thoughts, which even while trying to explain, feels a little silly. I will spend more time with this investigation while I await your next message. To be completely honest, when I try to ponder this specific point, I get caught up in thought about thoughts about thoughts, and seem to get distracted/confused.

You used “I” a lot of times : I forget, I remember, I realize, I wasn't ..., I try, I am experiencing, I find myself adding labels, ... would you look at this “I” and describe it for me ?

Everytime “I” type the word “I”, it feels like I’m missing better words to explain. “I” is the conditioning that I have built over the years, it is the part of my experience that allows me to convey ideas in a framework that I think is shared with other people/through the english language. Usually when I say the word “I” without thinking, it is referring to the version of me that is the conglomeration of emotions/thoughts/convictions/insecurities/etc., but in the context of our conversation, everytime “I” type “I”, there is a distinct feeling of “oh yeah, what even is that?”. It is hard to determine whether that “feeling” is learned from too much reading, or actual experiencing of a disconnect in my experience.

To put it another way, the phrase “I” (when not on autopilot) consistently corresponds with an experience of watching life in 3rd person, instead of in 1st person -- like I am sucked a few inches back into myself to see what’s happening slightly more objectively. It very quickly fades.


Your question regarding thoughts about thoughts has me simultaneously very inquisitive because it makes me question every "train of thought" that I've experience :)

Hi pockets

My thoughts are appearing mostly spontaneously, unless I put effort into guiding one to a certain place.

Look again at thoughts : how a thought is guided ? Do you push it? Pull it ? or take it by the hand ?

They don't feel like they are going anywhere in particular. They are constantly changing/morphing. At some arbitrary point the line is drawn between an old thought and a new thought. When I look as closely as possible at that line, I find nothing -- no distinction, no trigger, no catalyst.

How can you speak of a line where there is nothing ? Can we speak about a gap between thoughts ?

No, thoughts appear regardless of my intention, though my intention does seem to directly alter them, at least temporarily.

What is intention in your own words ?

Hmm this was difficult for me to answer, I returned to it throughout the day. /Future/ thoughts can be guided/encouraged in a direction, but the current thought just is whatever is.

you mean thoughts about the future ? Can you know a thought before its arising ?

By the time I am tried to predict a thought, the prediction itself felts like a thought. The first thing I did when I read this statement was to try to predict what would come next. I closed my eyes, and the first thought that I perceived was “I wonder what it will be”, which I then realized was itself a thought.

Yes.

I also had a hard time distinguishing sensations and thoughts during this exercise. For example, I would close my eyes waiting to “receive my next thought” and I would notice the blackness behind my eyes. Is that a thought? Or is that a sensation? Or is it both? I had a lot of trouble with this question -- I will continue to try to have a more precise answer from my experience.

Continue to observe thoughts and the gap between thoughts.

I cannot do this with certainty, however my intentions seem to allow the ratio of pleasant:unpleasant thoughts to be improved when I intend to do so. So I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying that I can “pick” any thought, but “I” don't feel utterly powerless when watching the thought-movie.

Look at direct experience before giving an answer.

No. When I intend to prevent a thought, I either immediate “think” about that intention (which is a thought), or I have another random thought take hold. I can’t find the absence of anything whatsoever.

Yes.

In my experience these “meta thoughts” (thoughts about the nature of thoughts) feel distinct and separate from other thoughts, which even while trying to explain, feels a little silly. I will spend more time with this investigation while I await your next message. To be completely honest, when I try to ponder this specific point, I get caught up in thought about thoughts about thoughts, and seem to get distracted/confused.

Take your time and observe attentively what is going on.


To make a resume about thoughts : you have seen that thoughts appear and disappear by themselves but you still believe you can control them, direct them, guide them, choose among them. You continue to observe thoughts till you will be certain of the answers to these questions :

Do you control thoughts from arising ? If so describe how it is done.
Do you chose thoughts ? If so describe how it is done

Thank you

Warissem

Hi Warissem, thanks for your detailed answer. I'm so captivated by this.

How can you speak of a line where there is nothing ? Can we speak about a gap between thoughts ?

I cannot find a gap between thoughts. I cant do it. When I actively think (and am aware of myself thinking) it is continuous and unbreaking. Maybe what you call a gap between thoughts is more what I currently akin to forgetting/deep mind wandering/sleeping.

What is intention in your own words ?

An intention is an act that directs further thoughts or actions. Upon looking closely at intentions, they appeared to be very similar to other thoughts, the only differences being that an intention feels like it supersedes or moves other thoughts out of the way. It feels like an intention is the only thing that can interject within a thought and abruptly change it. In some sense I feel like I can choose when to have an intention, but that actually isn’t true. I can only “choose” to have an intention when something spurs it (i.e. I hear the word “i” or “wake up” or think about this conversation, etc.), otherwise the thoughts seem to flow “on their own”. Actions/thoughts can continue to happen without a recognized intention.

But this doesn’t feel quite right... some part of my experience seemed like the intentions were just the exact same thing as other thoughts, both were being witnessed and both weren’t “me”. But in my mind, they sometimes feel so fundamentally different and incomparable. Even within the same minute of inquiry, I would feel this, then lose the feeling and feel silly.


I performed an exercise where I would intend to choose an arbitrary action, for example, choosing the intention to pick up a book. I would watch the intention closely for a few moments before picking up the book. Prior to the action, the intention felt very similar to other thoughts. I was able to have thoughts about the intention, so I knew it was not me. However, once I acted on the intention, and picked up the book, I could not determine what actually was “causing” me to literally move my arm. The intention was there before and after the action, so what changed? I am unable to answer this question at this moment.

you mean thoughts about the future ? Can you know a thought before its arising ?

Apologies, I did not explain myself very well. I was trying to refer to the idea of setting intentions for the “next” thought (not thoughts about the future). However, based on my previous answer about the definition of the word “intention”, perhaps the intention itself is the current thought.

During the investigation, I tried to distinguish the differences between thoughts and physical sensations (specifically noises and sensations at my nostrils). I was unable to perceive thoughts and sensations at the same time. I continued to have difficulty making a contrast between them in real time. I would start by intending to feel the breath sensations, and one of two things would happen:


1) I would be present with the sensations but realize I was also thinking about whether it was a sensation or a thought about a sensation. From what I could tell, I was rapidly going back between these two (sensation of breath <---> thought about sensation of breath)

2) I would think about something else, and identify that thought shortly after.

Do you control thoughts from arising ? If so describe how it is done.
Do you chose thoughts ? If so describe how it is done

While exploring these questions, I had a brief moment where it felt like thoughts were happening completely out of my control, and that even when I set an intention to have a specific thought, that that intention was also just thought that was out of my control. I couldn’t hold onto this understanding, because when I observed the “next” intention, it felt like a special-meta-thought that “I” was thinking. Even when writing this answer, it feels insincere because it feels like I am in full control of what I am writing, but in that moment intentions felt like other thoughts.

I don't choose thoughts, but my free will allows me to do things that influence their nature/content.

I will continue to ponder this question, and hopefully feel more certain in my answer.

You continue to observe thoughts till you will be certain of the answers to these questions

Out of all respect and honesty, i must say that I am not certain yet of my answers, but i am dedicated to become so.

Thank you very much,

Hi pockets

I cannot find a gap between thoughts. I cant do it. When I actively think (and am aware of myself thinking) it is continuous and unbreaking. Maybe what you call a gap between thoughts is more what I currently akin to forgetting/deep mind wandering/sleeping.

A gap is a “space” which is between two thoughts : the first is gone and the second thought is not yet here.

An intention is an act that directs further thoughts or actions.

This answer is not given from direct experience. Remember that all your answers must come after having looked at direct experience and when you are 100% certain.

Upon looking closely at intentions, they appeared to be very similar to other thoughts, the only differences being that an intention feels like it supersedes or moves other thoughts out of the way. It feels like an intention is the only thing that can interject within a thought and abruptly change it. In some sense I feel like I can choose when to have an intention, but that actually isn’t true. I can only “choose” to have an intention when something spurs it (i.e. I hear the word “i” or “wake up” or think about this conversation, etc.), otherwise the thoughts seem to flow “on their own”. Actions/thoughts can continue to happen without a recognized intention.

A lot of thoughts are given in your answer. Can you see, hear, … an intention outside of thought ? Intention is a thought like other thoughts, why do you give to it a special function ?

I performed an exercise where I would intend to choose an arbitrary action, for example, choosing the intention to pick up a book. I would watch the intention closely for a few moments before picking up the book. Prior to the action, the intention felt very similar to other thoughts. I was able to have thoughts about the intention, so I knew it was not me. However, once I acted on the intention, and picked up the book, I could not determine what actually was “causing” me to literally move my arm. The intention was there before and after the action, so what changed? I am unable to answer this question at this moment.

There will be exercises about choosing and controlling.

During the investigation, I tried to distinguish the differences between thoughts and physical sensations (specifically noises and sensations at my nostrils). I was unable to perceive thoughts and sensations at the same time. I continued to have difficulty making a contrast between them in real time. I would start by intending to feel the breath sensations, and one of two things would happen:

1) I would be present with the sensations but realize I was also thinking about whether it was a sensation or a thought about a sensation. From what I could tell, I was rapidly going back between these two (sensation of breath <---> thought about sensation of breath)

A sensation is what is felt : a tingling, a pain, a breeze on your face, it is a direct experience
A thought about sensation is not felt. Example : if you feel a warm breeze on your face, it stays warm even if there is a thought like “I feel a fresh breeze on my face”.

2) I would think about something else, and identify that thought shortly after.

While exploring these questions, I had a brief moment where it felt like thoughts were happening completely out of my control, and that even when I set an intention to have a specific thought, that that intention was also just thought that was out of my control. I couldn’t hold onto this understanding, because when I observed the “next” intention, it felt like a special-meta-thought that “I” was thinking. Even when writing this answer, it feels insincere because it feels like I am in full control of what I am writing, but in that moment intentions felt like other thoughts.
I don't choose thoughts, but my free will allows me to do things that influence their nature/content.

There are no mega thoughts, all thoughts are just thoughts. Is there a basket full of thoughts from which you pick up the chosen thoughts ? Or do you know thoughts after they arise ? For the analogy, look at the clouds, can you guess which cloud will be when the sky is blue?

I will continue to ponder this question, and hopefully feel more certain in my answer.

You continue to observe thoughts till you will be certain of the answers to the questions.

Warissem

Hi Warissem, hope all is well!

A gap is a “space” which is between two thoughts : the first is gone and the second thought is not yet here.

Thanks for clarifying. The only gap I can find between thoughts is the feeling of a sensation. For example. I focused on the feeling of my breath at my nose until I noticed a thought arise, then I redirected my focus to the breath (with an intention, which was also a thought), that was a gap between thoughts when I felt the sensation again. The distinction between sensations of breath and thoughts about sensations of breath is very blurred for me.

This answer is not given from direct experience. Remember that all your answers must come after having looked at direct experience and when you are 100% certain.

Clarifying question about this: when I am answering these questions, I try my best to experience/look at what is happening in the present moment, but when I then try to explain what I experience in words, it feels like something is lost, and that labels/additional thoughts are being projected upon it. Do you have any advice to try to prevent this? It is not my intention to be answering your questions in the wrong manner, I apologize.

A lot of thoughts are given in your answer. Can you see, hear, … an intention outside of thought ? Intention is a thought like other thoughts, why do you give to it a special function ?

I cannot hear or taste or smell or touch an intention. So in that regard, it really does feel like any other thought. The only difference I experience is that the contents of the thought make it seem special because they seem to indicate that “i” am choosing the it, whereas other thoughts feel like they are just being observed.

A sensation is what is felt : a tingling, a pain, a breeze on your face, it is a direct experience
A thought about sensation is not felt. Example : if you feel a warm breeze on your face, it stays warm even if there is a thought like “I feel a fresh breeze on my face”.

This is a helpful example, thank you for sharing. My issue is the following:

I feel a warm breeze on my face, I feel the raw sensation without a label. Very shortly after, I “catch” a thought whose contents label that sensation as “warm breeze on my face”. Even though this thought has no sensations associated with it, I feel myself bouncing back and forth between the sensations of the warmth, and the thought about the warmth very quickly, such that I can not distinguish when one starts and when one ends… even though I know and can feel they are distinct. I can directly witness myself “feeling” then “conceptualizing”, then “feeling” then “conceptualizing”, .... ad infinitum.

There are no mega thoughts, all thoughts are just thoughts. Is there a basket full of thoughts from which you pick up the chosen thoughts ? Or do you know thoughts after they arise ? For the analogy, look at the clouds, can you guess which cloud will be when the sky is blue?

I don't and cannot know a thought until it arises. When I try to examine this with intentions (which in many ways /feel/ like any other thought), it still viscerally /feels/ like I am controlling the thought, and therefore can know what it will be. In your analogy this would be the equivalent of intending to even try to guess which cloud will be in the sky in the first place! In this analogy, if you tell me to guess which cloud will exist in a blue sky, and even though I cannot possibly predict, I can intend to try.

You continue to observe thoughts till you will be certain of the answers to the questions.

I am not certain still, but I wanted to respond today to ensure you that I am actively engaged and exploring these things as my primary focus of the day. I will update this thread again when I feel more comfortable with my certainty.

Thank you!