Seeing no-self

[chrysalis]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
'Self' only seems to be a concept not pointing to anything in reality. The development of the sense of self starts in early childhood, it is strenghtened by our parents, school and society, leading to a feeling of separation from 'others'. It is an illusory identity, an unquestioned assumption.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to finally see through the illusion of self in my own experience, to see in actuality that I am not the doer, thinker, etc. Although I seem to understand these concepts, I'm still hanging on to something.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be able to further investigate the feeling of sense, my 'story', senses and perceptions and come to my own conclusion that indeed that there is no separate 'self'. I would like to be able to understand once and for all if there is any free will and see the truth of my existence.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
One year of meditation and self-inquiry, reading material included McKenna, Gurdjieff, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Adyashanti, etc. After reading Gateless Gatecrashers and LU, the sense of doership still persists.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Jadzia]

Hi Chrysalis,

I am Jadzia, if you like we can share a bit of path and time and find out where you might need to look a bit deeper.

Although I seem to understand these concepts, I'm still hanging on to something.

What do you understand so far?
What would you say you are hanging to, any idea?

Have a look at expectations you might have, too.
What do you think Gating will bring?
What will stay the same what won't?
Will you change in some way?
Will your life change?
What did you read about it and hope to achieve?

Love,
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks for doing this.

What do you understand so far?

I seem to able to grasp basic concepts presented in LU and Gateless Gatecrashers. Indeed, there is no 'I' found anywhere I look. During meditation and generally when I am alone, there is stillness and peace, but as soon as I get back to daily activities, the sense of doership reappears and everything goes back to 'normal'. Language definitely plays a big role in this.

What would you say you are hanging to, any idea?

In the beginning, it was definitely fear. Now, I honestly don't know. There is great desire to finish with this as soon as possible, the search has been very intense for more than a year now. Even when I try to stop, I quickly get back to new books and ideas and everything starts all over again.

Have a look at expectations you might have, too.
What do you think Gating will bring?
What will stay the same what won't?
Will you change in some way?
Will your life change?

I expect Gating to bring some lightness and lead me to see, in direct experience, that there is no-self. I should mention that I don't expect this to be the end of 'search', but only a stage (self-realization) towards what is often termed enlighnment (cessation of all dreaming). There is also a belief based on previous reading that even 'no-self' will be seen as illusion after all dreaming ends.

I expect everything to stay the same, minus the feeling of doership. Thoughs, emotions, sensations will still be there. I expect to finally understand that 'the observer is the observed', ie to no longer see separation between the subject and object of perception.

[chrysalis]

There is also a belief based on previous reading that even 'no-self' will be seen as illusion after all dreaming ends.

I meant to say 'nonduality' instead of 'no-self'.

[Jadzia]

Indeed, there is no 'I' found anywhere I look. During meditation and generally when I am alone, there is stillness and peace, but as soon as I get back to daily activities, the sense of doership reappears and everything goes back to 'normal'. Language definitely plays a big role in this.

Gating is when one gets that self isn't what it was thought to be. Meaning that Self/I is not an entity, separate from everything else, it is not the doer, thinker, chooser, decider, the body, the dreamer, not the captain of life's boat.
After gating a sense of self still stays on, it drops several steps later.

How comes you don't find an I?
Observe thougths for a moment. Do you find the I, me, mine, myself?

It in thoughts that the story of Chrysalis is created, reinforced and kept alive. And yes, sure language is helpful in maintaining the self idea.

Now, I honestly don't know. There is great desire to finish with this as soon as possible, the search has been very intense for more than a year now. Even when I try to stop, I quickly get back to new books and ideas and everything starts all over again.

Please drop everything during this investigation, no books, no videos, nothing, just looking, letting sink in and patience.
Looking is best when done softly without pressure for a result. Open up, be curious and have fun.

I expect Gating to bring some lightness and lead me to see, in direct experience, that there is no-self. I should mention that I don't expect this to be the end of 'search', but only a stage (self-realization) towards what is often termed enlighnment (cessation of all dreaming). There is also a belief based on previous reading that even 'no-self' will be seen as illusion after all dreaming ends.

To say that there is no self is as right and wrong as it is to say there is a self - and you will get that quite soon.

I expect everything to stay the same, minus the feeling of doership. Thoughs, emotions, sensations will still be there. I expect to finally understand that 'the observer is the observed', ie to no longer see separation between the subject and object of perception.

Oh, nothing much changes, life does what it does, life-ing.
Yes, thoughts, emotions, sensations and so on will still be there and since they are that what is too, they are not in the way. Emotions and other personal issues will still have to be dealt with after Gating and for a much much longer time, even after the awakening from the last illusions.
We will have a look at the observer....

Mull this over.

Love,
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

Meaning that Self/I is not an entity, separate from everything else, it is not the doer, thinker, chooser, decider, the body, the dreamer, not the captain of life's boat.

It is obvious when looking at breathing, functioning of the digestive system, chemical/electrical reactions in the brain etc., all of these happen automatically. I do have difficulty seeing it in other activities, e.g. it seems I exercise certain control during running, speaking, driving, etc.

How comes you don't find an I?
Observe thougths for a moment. Do you find the I, me, mine, myself?

It in thoughts that the story of Chrysalis is created, reinforced and kept alive.

Yes, ‘I’ is only found in thoughts and it leads to other I-thoughts. This ‘I’ was not present before the age of 2-3 when we acquire the sense of Self from parents/environment. There was obviously no need for a separate ‘me’ in addition to the body to control anything. This sense of separation continues to develop through kindergarten/school/sports, and we continuously fuel the story with emotions and thoughts.

I can only find ‘myself’ in thinking, in the story, there is no me in looking. If you asked me about my age or height, I wouldn’t be able to answer. I can only answer by referring to the story of chrysalis.

[Jadzia]

It is obvious when looking at breathing, functioning of the digestive system, chemical/electrical reactions in the brain etc., all of these happen automatically. I do have difficulty seeing it in other activities, e.g. it seems I exercise certain control during running, speaking, driving, etc.

Yes, it is easier to see it in the so called automatic actions, we already learned that they run on autopilot.
One of the big beliefs about self is that it controls action.
Check this for yourself with an exercise:
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Please make sure you answer each question.

Yes, ‘I’ is only found in thoughts and it leads to other I-thoughts. This ‘I’ was not present before the age of 2-3 when we acquire the sense of Self from parents/environment. There was obviously no need for a separate ‘me’ in addition to the body to control anything. This sense of separation continues to develop through kindergarten/school/sports, and we continuously fuel the story with emotions and thoughts.

The story of self, the sense of self is developed during childhood, time might vary quite a bit.
Chrysalis is a character in an elaborate story, which has been built up and is maintained.
Have a look at characters you like in books or films. Maybe you like to reread something or watch something again. Closely observe how the character is introduced, how comes that it starts feeling real, like someone you know well, someone you like reading about or meeting again on screen.
Is there a difference between a book or screen character and Chrysalis?

I can only find ‘myself’ in thinking, in the story, there is no me in looking. If you asked me about my age or height, I wouldn’t be able to answer. I can only answer by referring to the story of chrysalis.

Right. Referring to the story, to memories, learned stuff.

Love,
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

Hi Jadzia,

Sorry for the delay, I will start writing every day from now on.

How is the movement controlled?

The movement occurs automatically, no controller.

Does a thought control it?

No, even when I think ’turn up/down’ or ‘go’, nothing happens. Then the hand turns. And then the thought ‘I turned the hand up/down’ appears to claim the action.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

No decision made by anybody. It is only after turning the hand that the thought claims ownership over the action.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Again, it happened automatically, no controller, no chooser.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

Have a look at characters you like in books or films. Maybe you like to reread something or watch something again. Closely observe how the character is introduced, how comes that it starts feeling real, like someone you know well, someone you like reading about or meeting again on screen.

It’s usually a combination of factors, we are introduced to their backstory by characters themselves or through someone else’s perspective. Sometimes the story includes sad details from their past and we empathise with the character. They can have specific passions, hobbies or quirks that make them memorable: nail biting, poor manners, cursing, etc. Their actions can also indicate their nature and temperament. Description of their psychological state also makes them memorable, especially if they are facing a major dilemma or if they are at a crossroads of a sort. Sometimes it’s a peculiar physical feature, speech impediment, an unusual piece of clothing, etc.

Is there a difference between a book or screen character and Chrysalis?

Not really, I can easily look at chrysalis as a book/screen character.

[Jadzia]

Good.

It is only after turning the hand that the thought claims ownership over the action.

Yes often thoughts claim ownership after the action, but what if thoughts are there before or during action claiming ownership?
Play with another set up:
Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Not really, I can easily look at chrysalis as a book/screen character.

Yes, it is not much different than in a story in a book or so. The character chrysalis has the special preferences, knowledge, certain things in life happening which sets the character apart from others, right? Seems to make it into something quite unique, right?
Always have a gentle look on the story, it won't stop, will go on as long as there is a body - but this character and its story can be cherished and enjoyed, or?

Love
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

Hi jadzia,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No, there was no choosing, the qualities and preferences just appear by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No, again, there was definitely no choosing involved in any of these, there was no experience of a mental function doing the choosing.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No direct experience/witnessing of any choosing.

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

It didn't happen this time. In previous exercices the thoughts "I am the chooser/controller" definitely appeared.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

No, thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings, they cannot 'choose'.

Not really, I can easily look at chrysalis as a book/screen character.

I don't think I was completely honest here, a lot of my answers seem very automatic now when I look back; yes, there are obvious similarities between chrysalis and book/movie characters, the way characters are introduced etc. but I still experience myself as a human being of flesh and blood, can I really just be reduced to a mechanical fictional character.

Whar are you hanging on to?

The answer to this question seems much more obvious now. My major fear regarding gating/enlightnment is that on the other side I will find myself as a completely different person, bad, devious etc.

[Jadzia]

but I still experience myself as a human being of flesh and blood, can I really just be reduced to a mechanical fictional character.

Who or what is experiencing?
Who or what would be reduced?
Is there a unit which can claim "I am Chrysalis?"

Take your time and have a good look.

My major fear regarding gating/enlightnment is that on the other side I will find myself as a completely different person, bad, devious etc.

Look a bit deeper here:
How would this happen? And why?

Honesty is more the key to this exploration than being keen on the outcome.

Love,
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

Who or what is experiencing?
Who or what would be reduced?
Is there a unit which can claim "I am Chrysalis?"

There is no unit which can claim "I am Chrysalis"

Look a bit deeper here:
How would this happen? And why?

I don't believe it's an absolute truth that I don't exist. I exist, what I think I am does not exist -- the self-image, the fake/constructed persona. My fear is that once all illusions are gone I will find a completely different person on the other side.

[Jadzia]

There is no unit which can claim "I am Chrysalis"

If you look right now, fresh eyes, if you would have to point to Chrysalis, where would you point to?

I don't believe it's an absolute truth that I don't exist. I exist, what I think I am does not exist -- the self-image, the fake/constructed persona. My fear is that once all illusions are gone I will find a completely different person on the other side.

Absolute truth is a big word... ;-)
Is it right to say there is no Chrysalis? Or is there one? Or is both true?
Isn't there a Chrysalis in a story, thoughts talk about, people point to?
And yet, there isn't a Chrysalis in the way it was thought. In the way of thinker, doer, chooser, persona separate from everything.

If one says I exist, what exactly is the I then?
Usually we use I in me and you, in I did... and so on. Is this the I which exists? Is this I needed for the story to happen?

Yes, this is a fear one can have.
There will be changes, yes.
But
is there another side?
Another side to what?
Can there be anything new, different, unknown?

Go deeper into the fear, different is, well, not meaning much, what would be different? What is the fear behind the different?

Love,
Jadzia

[chrysalis]

If you look right now, fresh eyes, if you would have to point to Chrysalis, where would you point to?

I would still point to the body, there is still some slight identification, but no psychological "I" is found.

There were several glimpses into the "here and now" last several days. Only the immediate vicinity is seen, the surroundings become completely blurred, people around me are seen as actors coming on and off the stage.

[Jadzia]

I would still point to the body, there is still some slight, but no psychological "I" is found.

What exactly is the identification with? The body?
Is there any label on the body telling "Chrysalis Body"?
What tells about "Chrysalis Body"? And how comes? What is the assumed proof?

There were several glimpses into the "here and now" last several days. Only the immediate vicinity is seen, the surroundings become completely blurred, people around me are seen as actors coming on and off the stage.

These glimpses are just that: glimpses. Don't take them too seriously.
What is here and now for you?

Love,
Jadzia