The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
To be able to see directly, not intellectually, that there is no self, and that "self" is a just a concept, thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
I think that I've found what i looked for it by reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers. I read a lot about realization before and how ordinary it is, but that we are just one thought away from realizing that there is nothing to see, made me laugh. As well as how easy it is. Then there was bliss. And it has been unfolding since then.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Nothing specially. Just a conversation would be nice. I could share my experience. It involved a dream. Funny, because i was reading one of the stories in the book i mentioned above. Somebody had a realization in the dream. The same night happened to me and pointed me to look at the things as they are. It was very convincing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been doing the online Joy of Living course at the Tergar Community since 2019. it has been very useful.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed!
My name is Ron and I can guide you through your inquiry, or just see what is left of it 😃

You are saying that you have already found what you're looking for, was there a shift?
If so, can you describe life before and after?

What are you actually looking for? Is anything missing?

Regards
Ron

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed!
My name is Ron and I can guide you through your inquiry, or just see what is left of it 😃

You are saying that you have already found what you're looking for, was there a shift?
If so, can you describe life before and after?

What are you actually looking for? Is anything missing?

Regards
Ron

Hello Ron, and thanks for reaching out.

I would rather say that I found nothing, or better said I saw that there is nothing to be seen, and that the "room" is empty. Life is the same, but the perceptions of it changed. Life is unfolding in a natural way, and things are getting done. There is no sense that there is some mechanism, such as "I", that manages the process. Had that been the case, life would be too restless, which would not make any sense. This understanding is much more clear now than it used to be before. There is seeing, thinking, breathing etc, unfolding naturally. There is not, and there was not, centralized self that is behind these processes.

I do not look for anything. I would rather say there is a sense of curiosity about what is about to come in this process, as it seems that everyday there is something new to learn from it. There is no sense that something is missing. It seems that life works very well on its own.

Cheers,
Brane

Hi Brane,

Thanks for your reply. Most people that stop by at the LU motel seek something, and we provide guiding in how to inquire, using simple questions and exercises that may expose the illusion of the thinker, the doer and the slew of other beliefs related to this "I" who seems to be the center of experience.

You seem to be pretty clear already, so let's take a quick look together and see if anything else comes up, ok? Please be totally honest in your replies, only say what you see and experience, not what you think is the right thing for someone who's seen, that would be self deception ;-)

I would rather say that I found nothing, or better said I saw that there is nothing to be seen, and that the "room" is empty. Life is the same, but the perceptions of it changed. Life is unfolding in a natural way, and things are getting done. There is no sense that there is some mechanism, such as "I", that manages the process.

There are many ways to try and describe this realization, and yours is perfectly fine. There is no I who manages life.
But who knows that? Who found nothing?

Had that been the case, life would be too restless, which would not make any sense.

Which or who's life would be too restless? I'm not sure I get it, so please elaborate.
What would not make sense? Does life need to make sense?



Regards
Ron

Hi Brane,

Thanks for your reply. Most people that stop by at the LU motel seek something, and we provide guiding in how to inquire, using simple questions and exercises that may expose the illusion of the thinker, the doer and the slew of other beliefs related to this "I" who seems to be the center of experience.

You seem to be pretty clear already, so let's take a quick look together and see if anything else comes up, ok? Please be totally honest in your replies, only say what you see and experience, not what you think is the right thing for someone who's seen, that would be self deception ;-)

I would rather say that I found nothing, or better said I saw that there is nothing to be seen, and that the "room" is empty. Life is the same, but the perceptions of it changed. Life is unfolding in a natural way, and things are getting done. There is no sense that there is some mechanism, such as "I", that manages the process.

There are many ways to try and describe this realization, and yours is perfectly fine. There is no I who manages life.
But who knows that? Who found nothing?

Had that been the case, life would be too restless, which would not make any sense.

Which or who's life would be too restless? I'm not sure I get it, so please elaborate.
What would not make sense? Does life need to make sense?



Regards
Ron

Thanks Ron. I am very glad to engage in this discussion and it's perfectly fine with me to explore and see what comes up.

To your question: nobody knows that there is no "I" who manages life. There is no owner to this realization. There is just knowing about it.

The second point was more of a congnitive, hypothetical observation, not necessarily related to the process of looking. Given the amount of actions that are continuosly taking place, had there been "I" that manages every action, the life of this I would have been pretty much restless. As said, this was more of a hypothetical claim, not related to experience. On the other hand, life is just happening without any agency behind it. It is beyond understanding if it needs to make sense or not.

Brane

Hi Brane,

To make our correspondence more legible, rather than quoting my whole response, please only use the quote function around each of my questions when answering (simply past and select my text, and click the “Quote" button).


Can there be a true knowing of something that doesn't exist? An alternative way to see this, is rather than "a knowing", perhaps it's more that a belief in a self has dropped or weekend. And yes, that belief has no owner, and no entity.

Can you describe for me how in your experience things get done? Let's say you make breakfast.

Why do you make it and when?
How a decision takes place (tea or coffee? Water or orange juice, toast or bread?, scrambled or other?)
What is the role of thoughts during this process?


Regards
Ron

Hi Brane,

To make our correspondence more legible, rather than quoting my whole response, please only use the quote function around each of my questions when answering (simply past and select my text, and click the “Quote" button).


Can there be a true knowing of something that doesn't exist? An alternative way to see this, is rather than "a knowing", perhaps it's more that a belief in a self has dropped or weekend. And yes, that belief has no owner, and no entity.

Can you describe for me how in your experience things get done? Let's say you make breakfast.

Why do you make it and when?
How a decision takes place (tea or coffee? Water or orange juice, toast or bread?, scrambled or other?)
What is the role of thoughts during this process?


Regards
Ron

Thanks Ron. Sure, I do.

Can you describe for me how in your experience things get done? Let's say you make breakfast.

Why do you make it and when?

Because I am hungry. There is no a definite schedule when this is happening. Sometimes at 8, sometimes later

How a decision takes place (tea or coffee? Water or orange juice, toast or bread?, scrambled or other?)

There is a thought arising about drinking tea. SImilarly about eggs. There is a thought that leads to a certain action. However, the whole process is not dependent on thoughts. There is no thought behind the whole process of making breakfast. For example, there is no thought about I will open the fridge, take an egg, close the fridge and so on. The process, or part of it, unfolds somehow automatically.
What is the role of thoughts during this process?

Thoughts are coming and going continously. Sometimes that lead to a certain action, often not, as i gave the example above about breakfast.

Your quote function was somewhat successful :-)
maybe this will help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

R: Why do you make (breakfast)

B: Because I am hungry

Interesting, so there is an "I" who's hungry, and that "I" has volition and makes breakfast.

What rings most true:
- I inhabit this body
- There is an experience of a body
- There is no body in experience
- The body and brain are the source of all sense perceptions

Whichever one you select, please explain with some examples,
Thanks

Ron

What rings most true:
- I inhabit this body
- There is an experience of a body
- There is no body in experience
- The body and brain are the source of all sense perceptions

I am not sure if I understand what you mean with the third point, but I will go with that one. When i pay attention to the body, a question arises: what is a body, what constitutes a body? Is it a hand, or leg, or something else. At that point the body stops to have an experience on its own, and it becomes rather a label. On the other hand, if we take the experience of a sound for example, the sound remains to be experienced as a sound, even if we introduce labels such as a "loud" sound, or "gentle" sound etc. There is still an experience of a sound. I cannot clearly see that when it comes to a body.

Yes! That is how it shows up in experience.
And yet you said that you make breakfast because you're hungry, which implies something quite different, hence my question.

Now let's take a closer look at the other part of the reply:

There is a thought arising about drinking tea. SImilarly about eggs. There is a thought that leads to a certain action. However, the whole process is not dependent on thoughts. There is no thought behind the whole process of making breakfast. For example, there is no thought about I will open the fridge, take an egg, close the fridge and so on. The process, or part of it, unfolds somehow automatically.

You see that thoughts occur all the time, and you are also clear on how the body moves and does things in an autonomous fashion, good. However there are two items here that you should take another look at.

1. While you don't attribute most actions (even quite complex) to thoughts, you single out the grand theme as a special case where thought DOES initiate action. Let's call this thought "intention".
2. You see choice as a thought process.


I think you are clear that a thought is never your choice (let me know if that's not clear, and we'll take a look). But does a thought lead to action? Is there an "intension thought" that concludes in action?

Try this: put your palm facing up, and only curl one finger each time (any finger), watch what is the difference of moving them with intention and then without intention, switch moving them with intention and without intention (but keep moving them).
Do you find a real difference?
When you find yourself thinking about something else, and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move?
How is this intention controlled?
Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

If you are the controller of intention, there needs to be a faculty that can be turned on and off - is there one?

Next we'll look if choice is a thought process.

Let me know what you find,

Ron

Thanks Ron for the reply.

Do you find a real difference?

No, they are still moving.

When you find yourself thinking about something else, and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move?

They just move.

How is this intention controlled?

There is no controller. If we call the thought "intention thought", the thought remains to be just a thought, despite the label. And since thoughts do not have a centralized source where they are coming from, basically from nowhere, it would be wrong to say that the intention is somehow controlled.

Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?

Regardless of the intention, the movement is happening

If you are the controller of intention, there needs to be a faculty that can be turned on and off - is there one?

there is no controller of the intention and there is no faculty that controls it. Thoughts are coming and going from nowhere. So basically they are no any intention behind the thought process. Accordingly, the whole process of making action is actually without a controller, given that there is not a source or a mechanism behind the thought process.

Thanks for the questions,
Brane

Hi Brane,
OK, good. Is there any doubt about the previous statement "There is a thought that leads to a certain action."?
Please be sure your answers come from experimental observation and not thought process :)

What about a choice process?
Let's say I ask you to pick a a drink, water or juice? Can you describe the process and how a choice is made? But do it, don't report from memory.

Regards
Ron

Hi Ron,

OK, good. Is there any doubt about the previous statement "There is a thought that leads to a certain action."?
Please be sure your answers come from experimental observation and not thought process :)

This is fine and clear.

What about a choice process?
Let's say I ask you to pick a a drink, water or juice? Can you describe the process and how a choice is made? But do it, don't report from memory.

No big difference here. It seems like the choice is taking place. I picked water for some reason, but there is no any sense that something or somebody is behind this choice. It is simply being made.

Thanks:)

Hi Brane,
First and administrative note :)
Good quotes, but please use it around my question, not your answer. You can also use bold if you like.

Is this correspondence helpful to you? I'm getting very short answers and can't tell if you are experiencing this, or it is coming from an intellectual understanding and you're bored with this. All this needs to be experimental, nothing will happen, no deepening at all without keen curiosity and a seeing thing in action. It's rather simple, when you count on the intellect (whatever that is) and memory, you are turning a seeing in no-self into a belief in no-self.

I like to be thorough and make sure you see the pointers, if you don't mind, I would like to actually read how the process is taking place, what are the thoughts and how a decision is happening.
This exercise is deeper than just choice, so pay close attention to the thoughts and any emotions that come up.

Please put some chocolate/cake (or something you like, but think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate (or whatever).
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?
– look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Good quotes, but please use it around my question, not your answer. You can also use bold if you like.

Ok, I hope this works.

Is this correspondence helpful to you? I'm getting very short answers and can't tell if you are experiencing this, or it is coming from an intellectual understanding and you're bored with this. All this needs to be experimental, nothing will happen, no deepening at all without keen curiosity and a seeing thing in action. It's rather simple, when you count on the intellect (whatever that is) and memory, you are turning a seeing in no-self into a belief in no-self.

Sorry, I did not understand that i should explain the process step by step. This is not boring to me. To the contrary. I appreciate your time and I see now what is the purpose of it and why this has to be done in this way. I will have this in mind. Let's do the chocolate exercise. By the way, chocolate is not the best friend of mine lately, so this is a good exercise for me.

What is it that is considering these options?

There is a thought after thought that are considering these options based on the fact that I know that chocolate is not that good for me. There is a discussion going on, let's put it like that.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?

Except for thoughts, there is nothing else that can be identified. There are a lot of different thoughts about it, but also about other things in the meantime. That for example, I should not chat with you, but continue working:)

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?

I am not sure if i can identify what made that thought appear. It seems that it has simply just appeared.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

As said, I cannot locate the thing that made that choice. There is an ongoing discussion about whether I should eat or not, but besides the thoughts that are discussing this, I cannot see or sense anything else.

How exactly the decision is made?

Based on the view and previous experience that the chocolate will not do me any good, and I should avoid it.

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)

What is it that performed the chosen action?

I did not eat the chocolate. I do not see anything that performed this action. It happened during the time the discussion has been taking place. But, i cannot trace if there was a decisive thought after which I made the decision. There are still other thoughts suggesting that I should consider eating the chocolate, but there is no any actions taking place in this direction.

Please let me know if I should further elaborate and be even more precise. This is all what I see at this point. And thanks, this is also fun and i truly appreciate your time and effort:). I am happy to continue with it