The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
confused on all the teachings I have encountered. awareness watching awareness; consciousness, etc. i understand intellectually from Ilona and Tony Parsons that the self is illusionary but no seeing.

What are you looking for at LU?
How awareness and consciousness teachings come in to play, or if they do. help in understanding & letting go of some confusion. chatting re letting go of blocks - letting go of false beliefs and deconstructing belief systems

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
No real expectation - Just very appreciative to chat and be guided in releasing all of the stuff I have accumulated with teachings regarding being spiritual, ‘fixing myself”; etc. Guidance in direct method much appreciated.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation, contemplation, gratitude, forgiveness, positive pyschology, various awakening courses. Louise Hay, A Course in Miracles, Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Ramana, Papaji, Nisargadatta, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille. more recently - Ilona, Tony Parsons, Jim Newman

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Nokay,

and welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

(do you want me to call you like this or you prefer another name?)

My name is Luchana and I am happy to assist you exploring no self. We can have a talk here and see how it goes if you want?

This is going to be your inqiury. I’m not going to give you any new ideas or beliefes, I’m not going to teach you anything. I will simply point, but it is you, who have to look. The main goal of this investigation is to see experientially that there is no separate individual, no I, no me - there is nothing literally. All our effords will be in this direction.

From your intro I can see that you've did a lot of work, but it is better to leave aside all other books, videos and teachings for the time of this investigation.
Also don’t read even different threads here in the forum, rather spent all your time in looking what is here at experience.

Can we agree on this?


Few practical things:

How to use the quotes function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Post once a day, it really helps to keep focus. If for some reason it is not possible to reply each day - please let me know.

I will ask questions (they will be in Italic so you will easily know) and will giving exercises. All you have to do is to look your direct experience and write what feels true for you.
We look into the Direct Experience without assumptions and beliefs about what is. It is that simple.
What is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is ) Something like "Oh, there is a thought here".

So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see, what is it that we hear, what is it that we taste, what is it that we can smell, what is it that we can touch + thought, but not what thought is about.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can think and remember what socks you've pick this morning, or you can just look and see what colour are they really.

Also there are no wrong or right answers, so don’t worry - it is all ok :-)

Just reply with honesty.

So, are you really ready to begin?


Much love,
Luchana

Luchana,

I am very grateful for you to be my guide. You can call me Karen.

i agree to the guidelines and really ready to begin!

Thank you, 💗
Karen

Hi Karen,

I am very grateful for you to be my guide. You can call me Karen.

i agree to the guidelines and really ready to begin!

Wonderful! You are most welcome :-)

Could you tell me what is it that you hoping to happen when the self is seen through?
How will you change?
How will life change?
What will be different.


Please answer each question individually and honestly.

Take your time

Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana,

Could you tell me what is it that you hoping to happen when the self is seen through?
How will you change?

Hoping to see clearly there is no me....and this character will respond differently to Life’s happenings. respond rather than react.

How will life change?

I don’t know that life will change - I hope it will be seen clearly in the Wholeness it is without the me’s beliefs covering the awe & wonder that is Here, rather than seeing from a sense of separation.

What will be different.

Hopefully, freedom of the belief anything is happening to a me... losing fear of being seen/heard as a separate self. Seeing clearly there is no doership/ past - Freeing ‘others’ of me’s projections / judgments. “Love thy neighbor as thyself”

Hi Karen,

Thank you for aswering these questions regarding expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

Hoping to see clearly there is no me....and this character will respond differently to Life’s happenings. respond rather than react.

But there is no you even now and still responds and reactions are happening.
Why would this change? Just because the illusion is seen through.
All life conditioning will not dissapear with a magic stick. And it doesn't mean that there will be clear seeing all the time.
More and more and more further looking is needed. Literally the looking is the key.
Old childehood traumas, emotional pain will remain and will need furthur looking. Seeing no self is just the first step, just the begining and usually it's easier to work with these when the self has seen through.

I don’t know that life will change - I hope it will be seen clearly in the Wholeness it is without the me’s beliefs covering the awe & wonder that is Here, rather than seeing from a sense of separation.

Many of us have the impression that seeing through the illusion of a separate self is some state with special qualities - peace, calmness, wholness... But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory. Reality, truth or what is is simple, fresh and always here now when looked. Whether It is wholeness or not - no one can say, only me can imagined what will be. And this is part of the illusion.

Hopefully, freedom of the belief anything is happening to a me... losing fear of being seen/heard as a separate self. Seeing clearly there is no doership/ past - Freeing ‘others’ of me’s projections / judgments. “Love thy neighbor as thyself”

It is natural for us as a human beings to desire freedom, peace - all sort of pleasant emotions and avoind unpleasant ones like fear. But "losing fear of being seen/heard as a separate self" may or may not happen. It couldnt be know in advanced. For everyone is different.
And there is no doereship even now, it just seems other way. We are going to investigate all these closely with simple exercises and lots of looking.

Please read my comments few times ans see your expectations from a different angle. It will be better (best actually) to leave all your expectations aside and dive into this inquiry completely fresh.

After reading them 2, 3 times share -

Is there a resistance to any of it?


Much love,
Luchana

Luchana,

Thank you for your reply.

Thank you for aswering these questions regarding expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

seeing clearly the tendency to ignore what has been seen, due to imagined expectations.

But there is no you even now and still responds and reactions are happening.
Why would this change? Just because the illusion is seen through.
All life conditioning will not dissapear with a magic stick. And it doesn't mean that there will be clear seeing all the time.
More and more and more further looking is needed. Literally the looking is the key.
Old childehood traumas, emotional pain will remain and will need furthur looking. Seeing no self is just the first step, just the begining and usually it's easier to work with these when the self has seen through.

Wow...that really hit home: “there is no me even now and still responds and reactions are happening”.
there have been a lot of judgments and imagined expectations going on. Appreciation arising in the looking that has already being done in resolving auto-reactions, rather than judging they are there. :)

Many of us have the impression that seeing through the illusion of a separate self is some state with special qualities - peace, calmness, wholness... But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory. Reality, truth or what is is simple, fresh and always here now when looked. Whether It is wholeness or not - no one can say, only me can imagined what will be. And this is part of the illusion.

“ It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory”. Aahhh - looking in this very moment.

It is natural for us as a human beings to desire freedom, peace - all sort of pleasant emotions and avoind unpleasant ones like fear. But "losing fear of being seen/heard as a separate self" may or may not happen. It couldnt be know in advanced. For everyone is different.
And there is no doereship even now, it just seems other way. We are going to investigate all these closely with simple exercises and lots of looking.

Yes...no doership resonates. undoing more unrealistic expectations seems to be happening,

Is there a resistance to any of it?

No resistance!!! Ready to dive in completely fresh.

Thank you very much!
~Karen

Hi Karen,

Wow...that really hit home: “there is no me even now and still responds and reactions are happening”.
there have been a lot of judgments and imagined expectations going on. Appreciation arising in the looking that has already being done in resolving auto-reactions, rather than judging they are there. :)

It is very good that you can see this.

No resistance!!! Ready to dive in completely fresh.

Great! Let's dive then and look closely the thinking process.

What do you do in order to think?

"I think" - is this true?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it comes?


Investigate these quetions for a whole day. look many times during the day. Don't rely on memory or what has been learned and try to completly ignor what thoughts are saying about these questions.
Just look at experience vigilantly with curiosity. Reply each question individually.

Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana

What do you do in order to think?

Nothing...it just automatically happens.

"I think" - is this true?

No....just automatic happening. if a ‘past’ thought/memory arises mind can get quite busy with chattering. :)

Can you predict the next thought?

Definitely not .. beautiful silence

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

No..it seems to disappear in beautiful spaciousness. :)

Can you trace a thought back from where it comes?

Mind wants to claim stored memories in brain...but when I ask if that is true, there’s silent spaciousness

Thank you!
~Karen

Hi Karen,

Nothing...it just automatically happens.

No..it seems to disappear in beautiful spaciousness. :)

Definitely not .. beautiful silence

you did a good looking :-)

Mind wants to claim stored memories in brain...

if a ‘past’ thought/memory arises mind can get quite busy with chattering. :)

You've mention "mind" two times, so let's take a closer look at this

What is mind when you observe it in this very moment?

How is mind experienced exactly?

As an image, as a sound, as a sensation?

Or as imagination?

Is there such a place where memories are stoted?

If yes - where is this place?

What is it exactly that is getting busy with chattering?



Again, try to completely ignore thoughts about these questions - just look with curiosity.

Much love,
Luchana

What is mind when you observe it in this very moment?

I don’t know....blank

How is mind experienced exactly?

Not experienced - just is

As an image, as a sound, as a sensation?

No... but in silence there seems to be something like slight buzzing sound.

Or as imagination?

hummm...just seems to be nothing

Is there such a place where memories are stoted?

Good question..in just looking there doesn’t seem to be. But when auto-reactions occur, it seems likely memory is stored in this brain/body,,,, I really don’t know any more.

If yes - where is this place?

i don’t know. In my night dream last night It seemed I went to a place I’ve never seen...talked to some people I knew, others I’ve never seen before. some emotions / reactions arose - all while I was asleep in my bed. Could it be mind is nothing with imagination superimposed? very intriguing how emotions / reactions come to be in a night-dream! and In another night-dream I seemed to have had a remarkable tactile touch feeling....touching/feeling someone’s head who obviously wasn’t there. :)
i don’t know anything any more. Very curious.

What is it exactly that is getting busy with chattering?

Lol...I don’t know

Hi Karen.

I don’t know....blank

Is there something (literally) which you are able to see/observe, hear, touch, taste, feel?
Look directly. It is very simple, no need to intellectualise or imagine anything.

Not experienced - just is

Where? How? Can it's shape, form, colour be describe?

No... but in silence there seems to be something like slight buzzing sound.

Is the buzzing sound suggest in any way that it is coming from something called "mind"

hummm...just seems to be nothing

It seems or it is nothing? Nothing at all?

Good question..in just looking there doesn’t seem to be. But when auto-reactions occur, it seems likely memory is stored in this brain/body,,,, I really don’t know any more.

Can you open one of your kitchen cupboards? (if you are not at home while reading this, you can do it later) I mean literally.
Just open one of the kitchen cupboards - look what is in there, observe everything carefully for a min. Shapes, colours..you can even touch somehing and feel the texture.

Can memories stored in this brain/body be observed the same way?

Simple question, simple answer.

i don’t know. In my night dream last night It seemed I went to a place I’ve never seen...talked to some people I knew, others I’ve never seen before. some emotions / reactions arose - all while I was asleep in my bed. Could it be mind is nothing with imagination superimposed? very intriguing how emotions / reactions come to be in a night-dream! and In another night-dream I seemed to have had a remarkable tactile touch feeling....touching/feeling someone’s head who obviously wasn’t there. :)
i don’t know anything any more. Very curious.

Very good questions :-) Explore with curiosity:

Is there a mind dreaming?
Is there a manager of the dream?
Is there someone dreaming? Or the dream is just a happening?
Is there someone responsibe for emotions/reactions?

Lol...I don’t know

Let's find out. Search everywhere, I mean literally, scan the whole body.
If there is someone or something you will be able to find it.

Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana,

Is there something (literally) which you are able to see/observe, hear, touch, taste, feel?
Look directly. It is very simple, no need to intellectualise or imagine anything.

Literally nothing

Where? How? Can it's shape, form, colour be describe?

Nowhere. no shape, form, colour

Is the buzzing sound suggest in any way that it is coming from something called "mind"

No

It seems or it is nothing? Nothing at all?

Nothing at all

Just open one of the kitchen cupboards - look what is in there, observe everything carefully for a min. Shapes, colours..you can even touch somehing and feel the texture. Can memories stored in this brain/body be observed the same way?

Oh yes. no ‘me’ is there in night time dream, yet memories also obviously arose (since I had a reaction to a familiar ‘other’ that wasn’t there). :)
love this suggestion - will continue to play with this! :-)

Very good questions :-) Explore with curiosity:
Is there a mind dreaming?
Is there a manager of the dream?
Is there someone dreaming? Or the dream is just a happening?
Is there someone responsibe for emotions/reactions?

No mind dreaming
No manager
No one dreaming - dream just happening
Noone responsible for emotions/reactions! yay! :)

Let's find out. Search everywhere, I mean literally, scan the whole body.
If there is someone or something you will be able to find it.

Not finding anyone getting busy chattering! Evidence certainly points to no Karen! Fear/anxiety arising.

thank you! Your questions are so very helpful!

Much gratitude,
~Karen

Hi Karen,

Not finding anyone getting busy chattering! Evidence certainly points to no Karen! Fear/anxiety arising.

Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. Now, let's take a closer look at this.
Sit somewhere quietly and notice that you are in a secure environment- no real danger is there.

Look at fear and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.
So, respect it and say "Thank you, fear for protecting me".

What I’d like you to do now is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Look very closely. This fear suggests something. It tells a story.
What is this fear about?

Take as much time as you need and write what comes up.

Much love to you,

Luchana

Hi Luchana,

Ask the fear:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?
Look very closely. This fear suggests something. It tells a story.

What is this fear about?

yesterday there was a strong discomfort in the diaphragm area (above solar plexus & below heart)...like a tight band.
I invited it close to share its wisdom - thanked it for its protection, sat with it and inquired. No particular message but deep sadness/grief arose for all the suffering that we all endure as forms in this world. Ho ‘opono pono prayer. the grief softened after awhile and that tight band loosened to openness.

Today, 4pm, looking at unbelievable sparking diamond-like water in our backyard pond. Oh my...very intense - pounding energy in heart/thymus arose. Felt like I would explode.
Invited this energy to rest in the light of Awareness and share its wisdom, insight or fears. bringing it close with love & appreciation. i am here...listening. no message came . ho ‘opono pono. I, I. Subsided after 40 mins or so to openness. Whew!

Thank you,
~Karen