The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that we are the awareness which permits and is aware of the thougts, feelings and sensations; and that the "I" is a thougt - a very strong though, that makes us think that we are it. And it's not so easy to discard this idea - that what I am is this "I". And when we drop this identification with the I-thought, wat is left is awareness.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for help to perceiving directly the experience of no-self. I've been searching for some time now and I have a bit of theoretical knowledge but I didn't have the actual experiencing of the non-dual perspective. I also want to contribute to this initiative!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
expect orientations and questions that would help me drop the idea that I am the I-thought. I also expect a kind of partnership on this journey - it's very important to get help from someone who has lived this experience and is willing to help others.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I study and practice meditation for a long time and I like the non-dual understanding very much (Ramana Maharshi, Adyashanti, Rupert Spira and Douglas Harding are some of my main references in this area). I've been practicing the "traditional" meditation technique but only recently I had a glimpse of the totality of awareness.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

hi deniselias,

my name is Kalle and I also want to contribute to this initiative ;-)
So I'd be happy to assist you in exploring the idea of a separate self.
This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate. Realizing that there is no separate self/I/me is not an intellectual understanding, but rather an experiential knowingness that is intimately your own and cannot be shaken or taken away.

At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue.

Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been and with this realisation a shift in perception happens.

You can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.



Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Is deniselias the name you'd like me to use to address you?


best wishes,
kalle

Hi, Kalle!
Thank you very much!
I'm willing to LOOK to what IS, and I´m glad with your help.
I read all the material you indicated (but the last link is not funtioning).
I'm aware of all the disclaimers and I agree with them.
Please tell me what to do next.

Thank you!

Dênis

hi deniselias,

sorry, the last link wasn't copied properly:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer; and learning how to use the quote function :)

Just so that we are clear, to have the realisation that there is no separate self, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice. Check in and see if that is how committed you actually are.

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

-----------------------------------------



You said something of your expectations when you were asked the introductory questions for this forum, but in order for us to delve more deeply into this and so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration - ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. - please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing now?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in bold font. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

I will do my best to come back to you within 24 hours of your replying.

best wishes :-)

kalle

Hello, Kalle!

You can call me Denis!!

sorry, the last link wasn't copied properly:

Now I read it! Thank you!

Check in and see if that is how committed you actually are.

I've been looking for it for a long time... I am profoundly comitted to it!

Some housekeeping guidelines:

Understood and agreed!!

Now, about your questions:

How will life change?

I don't know for sure. I suspect that everything will became lighter, for I won't "believe" so strongly in the separate self. And I understand and feel that living life believing I'm a separate self is a source of trouble and suffering...

How will you change?

I think this is the biggest change one can accomplish. At the same time, it´s a simple thing. So there is a big change, and there is no change. The point of view is expanded enormously, and I presume it leads to a life with more love, serenity and compassion.

What will be different?

Like I said in the answer above, everything will be different, and nothing will be different. I feel that realizing our true nature (that we are not separate selves) won't make anything different, but it will bring a greater comprehension of life. In short, the relationship with others beings and the world will change dramatically though everithing will be the same.

What is missing now?

I think what is missing is a willing to let go all the theory and concepts that I've stored in my mind. I believe that perceiving our true nature is more about unlearning things and seeing reality in an innocent way.

Please let me know if my answers are not satisfactory in any way!

Thank you very much,

Best wishes,

Dênis

Dear Denis,

your answers are always satisfactory, don't worry. The more you just straightforward write what comes up the better I see where you are (in Brazil? ;-) ) It's all the explaining and speculating thoughts we don't need here.



Your expectations on this process are quite realistic, except I can not say there will absolutely be more serenity nor compassion...
Anyway, please put all your expectations into a box and throw it into the fire :) since they are hindering the process.

Thanks!
----------------------------------

We start by finding out what is actually really there, now and here. And practise LOOKING at the direct or actual experience (DE or AE).

In the course of the day, please label your experience with SEEING/HEARING/SMELLING/TASTING/FEELING/THINKING (the process of thinking- "thinking happening")

Examples:

taking a shower = feeling, hearing
"I need a new shirt for work" = thinking
drinking coffee = tasting, smelling, feeling
a car passing = hearing
a person talking= hearing, maybe thinking
"I hate this guy"= Thinking, maybe feeling

You will forget about the exercise for some periods, it doesn't matter. Do it when remembering, for the next days :-)

Tell me how it goes.

One more question:

I think what is missing is a willing to let go all the theory and concepts that I've stored in my mind.

Referring to just what is: Where is this mind in which you have stored this stuff?

How do you actually experience "mind"??


best wishes
kalle

Hi, Kalle!

I hope you're fine!

Anyway, please put all your expectations into a box and throw it into the fire :) since they are hindering the process.

Well, that's a lot! I've thinking about the perception of What Is as something much more direct and simple than all the religions and philosophies say. But it's not easy to let go all these concepts and all these expectations!!

In the course of the day, please label your experience with SEEING/HEARING/SMELLING/TASTING/FEELING/THINKING (the process of thinking- "thinking happening")

Wow! I completely forgot this! I´ll do it from now on!

Referring to just what is: Where is this mind in which you have stored this stuff?

I think that the mind is inside the Consciousness... but I still perceive it as the main "mode" in which I operate and, therefore, inside my head (actually not inside my head as it used to be, for I got in touch with Douglas Harding's teachings and it made me feel "headless" for a moment!).

How do you actually experience "mind"??

I don't know.... maybe mind is the moment I believe that my thoughts are trustful??

Best Wishes!
Dênis

hi Denis,

I hope you're fine!

thanks, I hope you are,too! Enjoying a low autumn sun in Germany ;-)

Anyway, please put all your expectations into a box and throw it into the fire :) since they are hindering the process.

Well, that's a lot! I've thinking about the perception of What Is as something much more direct and simple than all the religions and philosophies say. But it's not easy to let go all these concepts and all these expectations!!

Well, the thing about this directness of perception is, that it happens without any thinking. Most simple.
But you will see that we are so used to take thoughts for perceived reality, like:

I think that the mind is inside the Consciousness...

That is guessing. But what can you be 100% sure of?

Do you -NOW- see/hear/feel/smell the "mind"? ...... the "consciousness"?

And where is this "I" that thinks?


Please tell me what you actually do find! Sensations? Thoughts?

How do you actually experience "mind"??

I don't know.... maybe mind is the moment I believe that my thoughts are trustful??

when you "believe, that your thoughts are trustful" - what exactly is that, I mean, how is that experienced?





And tell me about this labelling exercise, after practising it for one or two days.



warm wishes,
kalle

Hello, Kalle!

Do you -NOW- see/hear/feel/smell the "mind"? ...... the "consciousness"?

No, I can't see/hear/feel/smell the mind, Even that which sees/hears/feels/smells can't be seen/heard/felt/smelled.

And where is this "I" that thinks?

This "I" is a thought, a pattern. But it is still difficult for me to let it go!

when you "believe, that your thoughts are trustful" - what exactly is that, I mean, how is that experienced?

I experience that internal voice as the main interface between me and the world! In the small glimpses of a direct perception, I felt the reality without the chattering of the mind (and this chattering is made of thoughts that conceptualize and interpret the reality).

And tell me about this labelling exercise, after practising it for one or two days.

This weekend was an odd one - elections here in Brazil. I didn't make the labelling exercise well enough... When I did it, it was interestning - I realized clearly which "funcion" was operating in each moment. But this realization was made by... thought! So I think it didn't go well... I'll try more times!!!

Best wishes,

Dênis
PS - last saturday I had a dream... in this dream I had a samadhi (or awakening, or direct perception). It was very interesting. I remember I did it intentionally. I was looking at the world and then there was no "I" anymore - there was just the world. After that, the things began to glow and to "dismantle"... and then I woke from sleep. I don't know the real meaning of it, but I thought it was important to tell...

hi Dênis!

I didn't make the labelling exercise well enough... When I did it, it was interestning - I realized clearly which "funcion" was operating in each moment. But this realization was made by... thought! So I think it didn't go well... I'll try more times!!!

No need to judge yourself :-) -- Of course, "labelling" means thought about experience, giving experience a name, but is the experience itself "made by thought"? E.g. there is an itching somewhere- is it made by thought? Suddenly a loud noise - is it made by thought?
Or rather, the experienced just IS, and thoughts immediately label it?

The main purpose of this exercise is to practise looking at what is now and here, and to notice how many times the attention lingers in imaginary thought world, which is the actual experience of thought.

So just try to do this labelling still during the next few days, it's such a valuable exercise. :-)

This "I" is a thought, a pattern. But it is still difficult for me to let it go!

You don't have to make an effort. The "I"-thought and "I"-feelings will not disappear for good.
It's the simple seeing that there is nobody who could let go of something!

I experience that internal voice as the main interface between me and the world! In the small glimpses of a direct perception, I felt the reality without the chattering of the mind (and this chattering is made of thoughts that conceptualize and interpret the reality).

Yes, I totally understand what you mean - but are thoughts really between "you" and the "real world"? I mean, aren't thoughts also just experienced?
Let's say, if you need a quick plan to climb up a wall to reach the room of your beloved, are then thoughts disturbing the perception of reality? ;-)

And, can you really find a "me" facing the experience? Like two things where there could be something between?

In other words, is there a feeling of "me" without experience??



Thoughts are just happening, and we are only beginning to explore, if there is an owner or an controller of them.

---------------------------------


Here is a great exercise on thoughts:

1. From where do thoughts come and where do they go?

2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

3.Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

4.Can you predict your next thought?

5. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?



It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Enjoy watching ;-)

...forgot to thank you for sharing your dream!
I don't dare to give an interpretation ;-) But I had also a powerful dream during that time.
Looks like something is moving.

looking forward to hear from you
kalle

Hello, Kalle!

Let's go!

but is the experience itself "made by thought"? E.g. there is an itching somewhere- is it made by thought? Suddenly a loud noise - is it made by thought?
Or rather, the experienced just IS, and thoughts immediately label it?

The experience just is, and I think that most of the time I relate to the thoughts about the experience, instead of relating the experience itself!
Recently I realized I never had really payed attention in breathing... I always payed attention to the thoughts about the breathing!!

So just try to do this labelling still during the next few days, it's such a valuable exercise. :-)

The labelling exercise is easier now! I'm enjoying it!!

And, can you really find a "me" facing the experience? Like two things where there could be something between?

Well, I'm used to thinking that there is a "me" facing every experience... But I cannot find it directly.

In other words, is there a feeling of "me" without experience??

This is more complex. I don't know! I suppose there is not a feeling of "me" without experience... but this is an assumption.

1. From where do thoughts come and where do they go?

They seem to appear and subside in the awareness field, just like the sounds, sights, smells, feelings...

2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

It seems that the intention to think about something generates some thoughts... but I don't choose them!

3.Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Definetely no!

4.Can you predict your next thought?

No. Sometimes it seems that the though stream follows some logical sequence. But I'm not sure if I controll or choose them.

5. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, it's not.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

It seems that it is logical, but I don't controll it!

And, about the dream...

Looks like something is moving.

I hope so!!!

Thank you, best wishes!

Dênis

The experience just is, and I think that most of the time I relate to the thoughts about the experience, instead of relating the experience itself!
Recently I realized I never had really payed attention in breathing... I always payed attention to the thoughts about the breathing!!

Great observation.
Two questions:

Are you directing the attention?
I mean can you really find somebody directing it?

When attention is on "breathing" - to which sensations does this label "breathing" actually refer to?
I mean, it's just a name, a concept; you could as well call it banana.

And, can you really find a "me" facing the experience? Like two things where there could be something between?

Well, I'm used to thinking that there is a "me" facing every experience... But I cannot find it directly.

Ok! Let's have another look at that:

Find a sound at your home which is regularly re-appearing, like passing cars or the humming of the fridge.

In hearing the sound, is there a hearer separate from the heard?

Can you locate hearing?

In DE, are there actually the "sound", the "hearing" and a "hearer" ??


Tell me what you find :-)



About the thought exercise: well observed!
Just this question on your uncertainty:

2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

It seems that the intention to think about something generates some thoughts... but I don't choose them!

What is this "Intention" in AE?
Somebody doing it?

:-)
Kalle
.

Hey Kalle!

Are you directing the attention?
I mean can you really find somebody directing it?

I think that IS the point...
What do you mean if I find somebody? How am I supposed to look for it? What are the indicators that show me if I have or not found this "somebody"?
When I point my attention to the "I", I can't tell if there is or if there isn't anything... when I do this, I feel like this intention is mine, therefore, there is an I that makes this movement with the attention. But this is a logical conclusion.
Anyway, the attention is directed (I don't know if by me or by something else), and this movement seems that it was a response to an intention that is mine!
You asked ME to direct the attention...

When attention is on "breathing" - to which sensations does this label "breathing" actually refer to?
I mean, it's just a name, a concept; you could as well call it banana.

The sensations refer to the movement of my abdomen and chest; to the temperature of the air in the nostrils; to the sound of the air in and out.

In hearing the sound, is there a hearer separate from the heard?

Can you locate hearing?

In DE, are there actually the "sound", the "hearing" and a "hearer" ??

No, there is not a hearer saparate from the heard.
I can locate the origin of the sound, but I can't locate the hearing.
The soud, the hearing and the hearer seems to be aspects of the same event...

What is this "Intention" in AE?
Somebody doing it?

I don't know!! Please help me!!! :-D

Dênis

hi Dênis,

Are you directing the attention?
I mean can you really find somebody directing it?

I think that IS the point...
What do you mean if I find somebody? How am I supposed to look for it?

I mean it in the most simple way. Like looking for your pants!!!!!


You write:

I pay attention to breathing.

Where is this "I" ????







If you want to continue writing about your attention, or your intentions, you must find this "I" in actual experience and show it to me.


:-)
kalle