The Gate

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 am**

I've been discussing LU with the guide Forgetmenot & wish to start a new thread with her as my guide please.

Alreadyfree

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:27 am**

Hi Phil,

Let's begin as we mean to go on...and so, I will start with my usual introductory posts. :)

This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate. At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been and with this realisation a shift in perception happens. You can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.

Here are links to information I would like you to read please:-

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:29 pm**

[

code]Hi Phil,

Let's begin as we mean to go on...and so, I will start with my usual introductory posts. :)

This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate. At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been and with this realisation a shift in perception happens. You can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.

Here are links to information I would like you to read please:-

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Hi Kay

I confirm I've read the disclaimer & the other links & am ready to begin the guiding.

Phil

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:59 pm**

Hi Phil,

Thank you for taking the time to read the links and to confirm you have read the disclaimer.

Just so that we are clear, to have the realisation that there is no separate self, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t just be a nice idea...just an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice. Check in and see if that is how committed you actually are.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:35 am**

Hi Kay

Thanks for your email. To answer your 4 questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

How will life change?
I'm hoping that life will become easier, more harmonious & smoother........regarding relating to others generally......... & especially in seeing the world "out there" as a far less threatening, demanding, overwhelming, chaotic & complex place. I'm very tired of seeing life this way & sense there is definitely another way, even though that way is unclear.
It would be wonderful to see life & the world out there as basically benign, good & meaningful

How will I change?
By becoming a person who's calm, peaceful, positive, joyful, contented, at ease with life, wise, perceptive, insightful, good company for others & kind. I'm assuming this is how most LU guides are & also those who've passed the gateless gate.

What will be different?
Nothing would be different outwardly or in circumstances. The change would be an entirely inner one. However, that inner change MAY gradually lead to more favourable outer circumstances.

What is missing?
A sense of: fulfilment, joy, inner peace, completion, purpose, direction, clarity of perception & vision, ability to be of real help to others, a well-balanced life. To no longer have a vague sense of a life wasted, of possible opportunities missed. To have that rare & precious sense of having a life well-lived.

I'll be 70 in January & these questions become more pressing as each year passes.

Kind regards
Phil

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:38 am**

Hello Phil,

There are many hopes, assumptions and expectations in your responses. All of these can be a hindrance, as when the realisation of there being no self as you thought yourself to be happens, it may be overlooked, as this shift can be very subtle, and when expectations aren’t met of how it should/expected look and feel…then there is an assumption that the realisation hasn’t happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them as we proceed through this exploration.

When you read my responses, be aware of what emotions and feelings arise for you. Anger, perhaps and/or resistance, disappointment, resentment, fear, rage, helplessness? Emotions will arise as we explore, become aware of them and if they are intense and persistent, let me know. Even if they aren’t, let me know because it is good to explore emotions to see what they actually are, as opposed to what thought says they are.

How will life change?
I'm hoping that life will become easier, more harmonious & smoother........regarding relating to others generally......... & especially in seeing the world "out there" as a far less threatening, demanding, overwhelming, chaotic & complex place. I'm very tired of seeing life this way & sense there is definitely another way, even though that way is unclear.
It would be wonderful to see life & the world out there as basically benign, good & meaningful

It’s okay wanting things to be different, however, it’s usually the wanting and the not wanting that brings about suffering. These desires, these hopes won’t happen when the shift in perception of what the self isn’t, is realised. This realisation is just a beginning and not an ending. Many come to LU believing that when the shift in perception happens that the world will right itself, and bliss and peace will be forevermore in that instant. And this just isn’t the case. It’s simply a shift in perception of what you are not, and what reality actually is.

How will I change?
By becoming a person who's calm, peaceful, positive, joyful, contented, at ease with life, wise, perceptive, insightful, good company for others & kind. I'm assuming this is how most LU guides are & also those who've passed the gateless gate.

Assumptions are thoughts interpreting experience. Assumptions are made up of thoughts and beliefs that we have learned or heard. Never assume anything. Always look to see what thought is pointing to, to see if it is pointing to actual experience or to thoughts about thoughts. This will become clearer when we start and proceed through this exploration. So, put all assumptions aside.

As I stated above, realisation of ‘no self’ does not automatically bring about constant peace and contentment, or a change in the seeming person. This exploration has got nothing to do with that. It is simply about realising that the self who suffers and believes they are in control of life, doesn’t exist. Nearly 70 years of beliefs and conditioning that goes with those years, won’t disappear overnight. Realisation of 'no self' may happen, but then the undoing of the compilation of the self that seemingly suffers starts to happen, and this undoing takes time. What this means is that peace and contentment will be sporadic…they will come and go, as will clarity. It takes time for shifts to integrate. There will be times of clarity and many times of uncertainty, confusion and doubt. This is all normal, but constant peace and contentment when realisation happens…does not happen. It will take time, and no one knows how long that is, it is different for everyone.

What will be different?
Nothing would be different outwardly or in circumstances. The change would be an entirely inner one. However, that inner change MAY gradually lead to more favourable outer circumstances.

The only reason there is a desire for outer circumstances to become favourable, is the idea that what happens ‘out there’ is what causes suffering, therefore if circumstances ‘out there’ change for the better, then it brings with it more favourable conditions to be at peace and to be content. Peace and contentment are not found ‘out there’, whether circumstances are favourable or not.

What is missing?
A sense of: fulfilment, joy, inner peace, completion, purpose, direction, clarity of perception & vision, ability to be of real help to others, a well-balanced life. To no longer have a vague sense of a life wasted, of possible opportunities missed. To have that rare & precious sense of having a life well-lived.

There is absolutely nothing missing, ever. All that you wrote is a story about a fictitious self that seemingly needs these things in order to be something….a someone who isn’t a failure, a someone who hasn’t wasted life…the need to identify as something, whether it is seen as a negative or a positive. Identifying as a good person is more desirable of course…identifying as a successful person, as a peaceful person, as a fulfilled person who has lived life well. All identifications, be they negative or positive belong to an idea of a self that is thought to be in control of life; needs to achieve in life to feel good about themselves in order to be fulfilled. It's just a story, no different to reading about a character in a novel.

Okay...so first of we have to learn how to LOOK and LOOKING is done by becoming aware of what your direct actual experience is. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now, which is colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

Kay

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:48 am**

Hi Kay

When you read my responses, be aware of what emotions and feelings arise for you. Anger, perhaps and/or resistance, disappointment, resentment, fear, rage, helplessness? Emotions will arise as we explore, become aware of them and if they are intense and persistent, let me know. Even if they aren’t, let me know because it is good to explore emotions to see what they actually are, as opposed to what thought says they are.

When I read your responses the feelings that arose in me was a slight sense of disappointment, fear, overwhelm, & hopelessness. I began to wonder if the whole guiding process would be too difficult for me. But on the other hand, I felt a strong appreciation for how comprehensive & deep your email was.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

The one sound I heard was a clock ticking.

Phil

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:45 am**

Hey Phil,

When you read my responses, be aware of what emotions and feelings arise for you. Anger, perhaps and/or resistance, disappointment, resentment, fear, rage, helplessness? Emotions will arise as we explore, become aware of them and if they are intense and persistent, let me know. Even if they aren’t, let me know because it is good to explore emotions to see what they actually are, as opposed to what thought says they are.
When I read your responses the feelings that arose in me was a slight sense of disappointment, fear, overwhelm, & hopelessness. I began to wonder if the whole guiding process would be too difficult for me. But on the other hand, I felt a strong appreciation for how comprehensive & deep your email was.

Yes, I was aware that my responses may engender said feelings. It is good to be aware of what feelings arise for you throughout this exploration, and to be aware of expectations and assumptions. I also didn’t want you to have the idea that all your SEEMING troubles or desires will be met in when realisation happens...because it doesn’t. As I mentioned...realisation is a beginning and not an ending and there is a process that we all have to go through…even guides here at LU.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
The one sound I heard was a clock ticking.

Okay. Now remember that actual experience (AE) is simply looking or becoming aware of your direct actual experience and is simply made up of colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought.

So, I would like you to repeat the exercise and answering from actual experience (AE) only, tell me...

- How is it known that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
- What is it that suggests that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
- What is the actual experience of hearing ‘clock ticking’?

Kay

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:33 am**

So, I would like you to repeat the exercise and answering from actual experience (AE) only, tell me...

- How is it known that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
- What is it that suggests that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
- What is the actual experience of hearing ‘clock ticking’?

Kay

1. I know the sound is a clock ticking because thought tells me this. I also have the memory of what is the sound of a clock ticking. I can confirm it by moving closer to the clock.

2. the suggestion that the sound is a clock ticking comes from memory (which is a thought). I have a clear memory of this sound - the rythmic nature of it, the pitch & volume.

3. the actual experience of hearing a clock tick, without thought & memory intruding, is like hearing the sound for the first time & hence not recognising it. What is that sound? A machine, an insect? In the same way, if I hear a song on the radio I may instantly & consciously recognise it. Or I may have no recognition or memory of having heard it before.

For what it's worth, I think in Buddhist meditation they call this "bare awareness" - being aware of thoughts, sounds, images, sensations but without labelling or judgement. It seems to me that we rarely truly see or hear anything because thought, labels & judgements are immediately imposed on what we perceive. Very young children are free of this.

Phil

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:31 am**

Hi Phil,

It would help me greatly if you used the quote function on each individual question, placing your answer underneath each individual question. It is surprising to what information pours through when responding to a question individually that wasn’t thought of before. Plus it keeps it easier to follow the thread.

- How is it known that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
I know the sound is a clock ticking because thought tells me this. I also have the memory of what is the sound of a clock ticking. I can confirm it by moving closer to the clock.

Yes, it is thought that suggest that the sound is a clock ticking. Without thought, could this be known?

- What is it that suggests that the sound is a ‘clock ticking’?
the suggestion that the sound is a clock ticking comes from memory (which is a thought). I have a clear memory of this sound - the rhythmic nature of it, the pitch & volume.

Yes…exactly. Thought points to the sound and labels it clock, and then further adds layers of stories over the sound about what a clock is, rythmic nature, pitch and volume...when actually, it is simply the actual experience of sound.

- What is the actual experience of hearing ‘clock ticking’?
the actual experience of hearing a clock tick, without thought & memory intruding, is like hearing the sound for the first time & hence not recognising it. What is that sound? A machine, an insect? In the same way, if I hear a song on the radio I may instantly & consciously recognise it. Or I may have no recognition or memory of having heard it before.

Hmmm…that is a lot of thought story there which didn’t really answer the question succinctly. So would you answer it for me please? :)

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’?

Kay

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:04 pm**

It would help me greatly if you used the quote function on each individual question, placing your answer underneath each individual question. It is surprising to what information pours through when responding to a question individually that wasn’t thought of before. Plus it keeps it easier to follow the thread.

Yes, I'll use the quote function for each individual question in future. I can see now that makes it easier.

Hmmm…that is a lot of thought story there which didn’t really answer the question succinctly. So would you answer it for me please? :)

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’?

The actual experience of hearing a clock ticking is:......hearing (using ears) a sound or noise. Surely that's not the "right" answer? If I add more then I'm using thought: such as a repetitive, rhythmic beating/striking sound with no variation in speed, pitch or tone. Possibly a mechanical noise/sound.

It seems I don't get the question. Help!

Phil

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 pm**

Hi Phil,

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’?
The actual experience of hearing a clock ticking is:......hearing (using ears) a sound or noise. Surely that's not the "right" answer? If I add more then I'm using thought: such as a repetitive, rhythmic beating/striking sound with no variation in speed, pitch or tone. Possibly a mechanical noise/sound.

The actual experience of 'clock ticking' is simply the actual experience of sound.

Actual experience are the raw experiences of colour (image), sound, sensation, smell and taste. Then there are thoughts.
Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts. This is the realm of make-believe.

Okay, continuing on with becoming aware of actual experience. The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with, and overlay actual experience. The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure is the actual experience of colour and the actual experience of thought.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience - what you know for sure and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm**

Hi Kay

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

It seems to me that the apple is not here, but only the colour & a thought about "apple".

However, is an apple actually known?

The answer is no, because all that is known is the various labels applied to "apple" (ie. name, taste, colour, sensation, smell, thought about "apple").

I find this exercise very difficult. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much. Maybe it's not meant to be easy, or rational & logical.
Maybe this is about 2 ways of experiencing things: either the usual indirect way via thought, labels etc.......OR the direct (awakened) way without thought but only using the 5 senses.

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

This part confuses me. It seems to say that actual experience includes the 5 senses (colour, smell etc) PLUS THOUGHT, provided it's not thought ABOUT something! Or maybe you accidentally included "thought"????

Maybe I'm overthinking the exercise. Maybe it's beyond rational analysis, in the way Zen koans are. Koans can't be solved by rational thought. Maybe it's normal & common for people to struggle with this exercise.

It seems to me this exercise is probably similar to some of the daily lessons in A Course in Miracles workbook, which I've only briefly looked at. I'm wondering if the guiding will get easier.

Phil

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:00 am**

Hi Phil,

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
It seems to me that the apple is not here, but only the colour & a thought about "apple".

Great!

However, is an apple actually known?
The answer is no, because all that is known is the various labels applied to "apple" (ie. name, taste, colour, sensation, smell, thought about "apple").

Tastes, smells, sensations (touch), colour and sounds that thought associated with an apple are actual experience ie are known, however, it is only thought that says they belong to something labelled as an ‘apple’.
If an apple cannot be found in actual experience, then how could taste, smell etc be that of an apple?

I find this exercise very difficult. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much. Maybe it's not meant to be easy, or rational & logical.
Maybe this is about 2 ways of experiencing things: either the usual indirect way via thought, labels etc.......OR the direct (awakened) way without thought but only using the 5 senses.

As I said in my previous post….the interpretation of actual experience by thought happens quickly. So labelling and interpretation will appear, however, with practice it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with, and then overlay actual experience. There is no two ways of experiencing experience. Thoughts are not experiencing experience, they are narrating a story about experience which is no different to a book narrating a story about a character called Cinderella. Actual experience is reality whereas the content of thought is fiction.

In other words, when you look at an ‘object’, thought will automatically label it and interpret what it is and what it is for and its purpose. However, this labelling and interpreting can be noticed and put aside in order to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought says is appearing. Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and takes practice. I would suggest that any exercise given, is done more than once and done with different ‘objects’.

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.
This part confuses me. It seems to say that actual experience includes the 5 senses (colour, smell etc) PLUS THOUGHT, provided it's not thought ABOUT something! Or maybe you accidentally included "thought"????

Thought is included...but just the face value of thought. All thought is empty of content, in other words thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience, if it did, you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’. Thought either points to AE , for example sensation “brrbrr” = thought "cold" - so the label 'cold' is pointing to AE of sensation; or thought points to thoughts about thoughts, for example the meaning of what “cold” is...which is story.

Another example is the thought “I still believe that I am a “me”. The thought is actual experience of thought, however the other thoughts that arise with that, the ensuing thoughts about that thought, (ie interpretation/description/meaning) are the content of that thought and are fictional…simply a story.

Just to make sure it is clear…actual experience of a thought is the THOUGHT ITSELF and not the content of the thought.
For example: “I am sitting on a chair” is a thought.
The label “I” is not AE of a person/self but is the AE of thought
The label “sitting” is not AE of sitting but is the AE of thought
The label “chair” is not AE of a chair but is AE of thought.

Is this all clear?

Maybe I'm overthinking the exercise. Maybe it's beyond rational analysis, in the way Zen koans are. Koans can't be solved by rational thought. Maybe it's normal & common for people to struggle with this exercise.

Yes, of course it is…it’s a different way of perceiving the world and takes dedicated looking and an open mind….a willingness to look, instead of thinking, in order for the light bulb to eventually go off. It will become clearer…you just have to start looking at actual experience of ‘objects’ throughout your day.

So, let’s take a look at an object that thought labels as ‘chair’.

The label ‘chair’ is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.
Colour labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of colour and not AE of a chair.
Sensation (touch) labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a chair
Thought ABOUT a chair – what it is, what it is made from, what its purpose is..is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.

So, label + colour + sensation + thoughts are known, however is a chair actually known?

It seems to me this exercise is probably similar to some of the daily lessons in A Course in Miracles workbook, which I've only briefly looked at. I'm wondering if the guiding will get easier.

Yes of course it gets easier. But as I have said, it depends on how committed and dedicated you are to actually seeing what is being pointed at? There will be times of confusion, doubt, resistance and anger, as well as the fear of not being able to ‘get it’ and what that means to you. The following was written by a seeker who went through the forum – and is something to be aware of throughout. So just how dedicated, how willing are you to do this exploration when it seems a little difficulty in the beginning is already putting doubts in your mind?

To see This, first, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Second, you must be open with a willingness to set aside your current beliefs about how things are and engage in rigorous inquiry. No-one can give this to you.

Your beliefs might rush in saying, “Yeah, but…”, “OK, but what about…?”, “I was taught that…”, “My other teacher or the book I read said…” All this must be pushed aside and sometimes quite aggressively.

Third, you must engage in active listening. Listen carefully to the words your guide is using. Be sure you are clear on the context within which the words are being used. Sometimes, when you review what was asked or said, you realize that what you thought you heard versus what was actually said are two different things.

Fourth, this ties in with number 2… practical application… You can’t just sit and ponder, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action. Do the work.

Fifth, be 100% honest with your guide and with yourself. You can’t cheat your way through this. Wherever you are in your understanding or lack thereof is fine, but your guide can’t help you if you are withholding. Withholding is unfair both to the guide and yourself.

Kay

Posted: **Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:11 am**

Hi Kay

Thanks for your email.

If an apple cannot be found in actual experience, then how could taste, smell etc be that of an apple?

The answer is that thought says that taste, smell etc are that of an apple. These thought come from memory - which is more thought.

Code: Select all

Just to make sure it is clear…actual experience of a thought is the THOUGHT ITSELF and not the content of the thought.
For example: “I am sitting on a chair” is a thought. 
The label “I” is not AE of a person/self but is the AE of thought
The label “sitting” is not AE of sitting but is the AE of thought
The label “chair” is not AE of a chair but is AE of thought.

Is this all clear?

Is this all clear? Sort of. I'm not sure that said light bulb has gone on yet. I'm very relieved you said that this does get easier....... with dedicated practise, an open mind & distinguishing looking from thought. It just seems very complex & subtle. I keep wondering if I'm trying too hard, should it be this difficult, is it beyond me, will I fail, am I taking too long? etc. Do others fail at this & give up etc? I also feel I'm drowning in words explaining all this.

So, let’s take a look at an object that thought labels as ‘chair’.

The label ‘chair’ is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.
Colour labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of colour and not AE of a chair.
Sensation (touch) labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a chair
Thought ABOUT a chair – what it is, what it is made from, what its purpose is..is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.

So, label + colour + sensation + thoughts are known, however is a chair actually known?

The answer is no (hopefully).

Yes of course it gets easier. But as I have said, it depends on how committed and dedicated you are to actually seeing what is being pointed at? There will be times of confusion, doubt, resistance and anger, as well as the fear of not being able to ‘get it’ and what that means to you. The following was written by a seeker who went through the forum – and is something to be aware of throughout. So just how dedicated, how willing are you to do this exploration when it seems a little difficulty in the beginning is already putting doubts in your mind?

I believe I certainly have sufficient commitment, dedication & willingness to do this exploration. And I accept all that the quote from a seeker says.

I accept that I need to practise this exercise sufficiently for the light bulb to go on & get brighter...... and not just think about it when I'm reading your email. I'm wondering if there is a concise summary of exactly what I should practise away from my laptop, so that I don't need to keep re-reading your last email email (& previous ones) over & over & over. I'm also wondering whether if you were explaining this to me face-to-face it would be much much easier & quicker & less effortful.

For what it's worth, my concise summary of what I must practise frequently away from my laptop is:

1. look at an object & try to look at it using AE, rather than thinking about the object. That is, what do I SEE, HEAR, touch (sensation), smell, taste?

2. what thoughts am I aware of while looking at the object..... but only the bare (face value) thoughts rather than the content of the thoughts, or thoughts about thoughts, or labels & concepts. That is, don't be swept away by other SECONDARY thoughts that may arise (interpretations, meaning etc).

3. don't look for too long as this encourages secondary thoughts to arise. And besides, all this effort may lead to a headache. Do I get a mark out of 10? Just kidding!

For what it's worth, it's taken about 2 hours to read, process, think about & reply to your email. I'm also still getting used to using this website page with it's quote function & save draft functions (without suddenly losing my email, which has happened a few times in previous days). Yes I know you recommend saving it all on Word, but having no knowledge of that it would add more time to learn & master that. But I'm not complaining.

Phil

The Gate

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Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

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Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

Re: thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me