Seeking Guidance to End the Seeking

[Mettafort]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
“I” am a belief structure, a habit of thought that is so strong and hypnotic that I have forgotten who I truly I am. This “I” cannot be found under inquiry, yet I endure. I get this. I need help in not knowing who I am so that I can know who I truly am.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance, for help, so that I can finally die in this life. I am fixated on waking up, from morning until night. But I am clumsy, and I weak, and I struggle to sit in long meditations of self-inquiry. I have gone into the world seeking through knowledge, through plant medicine and through esoteric practices and courses. I have had glimpses. I have been touched with Grace and brought to tears on Ayahuasca, and I have experienced full ego-death too which to be honest, has left me lost at sea and my life upside down...and I wouldnt have it any other way.

Very recently I experienced a moment, more than a glimpse, a series of moments in fact where I experienced the world as present awareness. Thought had fallen aware, and the world was Just Is. There was no expectations or wants, there was just this exquisite present moment. Sadly, when I realized what. I was experiencing I became overjoyed and the abiding disappeared. Humbly and respectfully, this has galvanized my desire to do whatever it takes to find my way Home.

I am looking at LU for help from a fellow journeyman/women, who has been where I am, and who can help me to get across this river so that I can reach the other shore.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
After reading the two books, I am expecting to start a dynamic, organic interaction and communication with someone who can help me to get farther than my current position. I am hoping (ugh) that through such a conversation, I would be afforded a more personal process that will help me get beyond blocks of the mind or thought, to help me when I am stuck and lost in this vessel of a body. I expect to be challenged, to be questioned, to be confused and frustrated and mentally and emotionally exhausted from this process. What I am ultimately looking for from this process, this guided conversation, is the support and pointers that I need to facilitate my Awakening.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A lot - perhaps too much. Been seeking since 2005. Buddhist practitioner, avid follower of Adyashanti, and a proud owner of a large book collection on non duality. I wasted a lot of time not realizing that The Path is about letting go of the beliefs about “Me”. I thought it was about mindfulness, metta-meditation, loving compassion, tonglen, stuff like that. And while those practices I believe do support the path, over the past 5 years or so I have been profoundly aware of what the spiritual journey is - nothing at all, just as I understand now that “I” am nothing at all, yet I am God. I get this intellectually, and apart from the DMT induced ego-death, and from the recent experience of being Present Awareness, the rest of my experience is locked in the cell walls of my mind. I have many books that are conversations with seekers, from Nisargadatta, Papaji amongst many others. And while they have all helped, I remain stuck.

I touched grace once a long time ago, praticising metta-bhavna as part of a buddhist sangha I was in at the time in London. For two weeks, I practiced deep meditation on the loving-kindness, and as I went about my day, using unwavering mindfulness, I practiced metta-bhavna in every situation that I could. If someone was rude, snapped at me, or did something to someone else, I would genuinely elicit the most deepest feeling of love and compassion for that person that I could muster. It was a real struggle, requiring iron will. The sad thing is, after the two weeks, I had found it such a challenge that I didnt keep it up. But I touched something - in that last week, half way through, something beyond words occurred. I was less preoccupied with my problems or desires, and more focused on connecting with others. I was the happiest I have ever been. It was a happiness that I have never been able to explain to anybody. It was a lightness of being, for I was less centre stage. Years on, after going deeper with non duality and enlightenment, I realize this was likely my return home that I have been forever seeking....and I didnt realize it.

I understand that there is no real death, and that my life in this Space Suit as Ram Dass used to say, is all about participating in this glorious expression of the Source, to the very best that I can. To help others, other Souls that have forgotten who they truly are. To help others, to help myself, I have to find my way home....

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Skygazer74]

Hi Mettafort,

Thanks for your answers, I share a similar spiritual background so thought I might offer help if you are still seeking a guide?

A few bits of housekeeping first:

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/
- If you click on the spanner icon below you can subscribe to this thread and receive an email when I respond.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

Apologies for the late response, I didnt see it, but I will endeavor to honor the agreement going forward and respectfully reply within the day. Thank you for offering to be a guide.

How will Life change?

Great question....I think Life will be lighter, less tumultuous - while the story will continue to play out, I wont be so drawn into it and suffer like I do today. I am expecting less suffering. But bigger than that, I will be able to live life with a richer, greater appreciation for how precious and wonderous this incarnation really is.

How will you change?

Hhhmm..I am hoping I will be able to transcend my neurosis, my problematic thought loops that get me into trouble and cause a lot of suffering. I am looking for happiness - true happiness. I will be kinder, easier to get along with, free of the incessent judgemental mind that I have today. I will be calmer, more relaxed and able to experience life instead of always thinking of what I need to be doing, to grow and become a better person. I am expecting that when that "person" is realized to be nothing more than a mirage, the framework I have attached to that person and what it should be doing to seek happiness, will become less important or driving in my behaviors and thoughts. I find it difficult being me; I cant relax, I have to be growing - because if you arent growing you're dying, as Tony Robbins says. I am also hoping that in general, I am more connected to the whole experience, from being more connected to people, to being profoundly grateful for this short time in this body.

What will be different?

Suffering? I bloody hope so :) Its hard to grasp the answer to this question, but I know that there will be a shift that will likely mean my experience of life will be truly different - like the realization Santa doesnt exist. I can vaguely remember the day it became apparent he was a lie. More importantly, I remember finding out the person I had been calling Dad, wasnt my dad after all. From that day forward, no matter how I thought of my step dad, he was Brian, not dad. And the whole psychology of Brian was completely different. I am expecting something like this I think, only deeper and more profound.

I recently spent some time thinking about beliefs, after talking with Ilona actually, and I experienced a shift. Its subtle, yet it feels important - I have a visceral understanding I havent had before, that all of my experience that I identify with is Mind. Not intellectually, though I do have that, but this recent shift has become something that has galvanized my effort. The shift feels like a 2 out of 10 for strength, but its there and I can perceive it. And I know now, just like Santa, I cannot not know what I have realized about beliefs and my view of the world being based on beliefs more than truth. I have also had a little shift with the "I" - the sense that shit, just like all of the other beliefs that form the fabric of meaning in my world, this "I" is a construct - one that comes and goes too. Its a miniscule realization beyond what I have been used to - I have understood intellectually this concept of self-realization for some years, but never actually felt it in my heart like I have recently.

So I am expecting some sort of shift that is deeper and more profound, once this experience of truth really saturates my being and I finally cease the grasping at this "I".

What is missing?

My mind reacted to this question - everything is perfect just as it is; but ofcourse while I remain asleep, whats missing is peace, serenity, happiness, connection, true gratitude. When I finally realize the truth, I intellectually understand nothing will be missing. But thats nothing more than another belief I have created - conjecture and hearsay. I am hoping though, that once I "reach the other side", what will be missing will be this longing that greets my first breath in the morning, and whispers silently within as I lay in bed at night.

Thank you Nic,

Nick.

[Skygazer74]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for taking the time with your answers. There are evidently some expectations, and although it may be true that some of them arise post gate, it is better to let go of expectations because they can obstruct the enquiry. If you could bundle expectations and beliefs into a bag and lay them aside for a while that would help you :)

This process is all about distinguishing between direct experience, and what is constructed by assumption and thoughts. So I want to start by working towards that distinction becoming clear.

An analogy; You have forgotten what colour socks you are wearing, and can either try to piece it together and work it out, going back through memory of the morning, or you can simply look.

The self is like this, it is an illusion, like Santa, and when we look for it we cannot find it, except as a thought (or unconscious assumption based on previous thoughts)

Try this:

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

Let me know how you get on with this please?

Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

I appreciate the feedback about the expectations and being aware of them enough to lay them to the side. Just that simple pointing out has been quite insightful - I wasnt aware I had such a world created from all of these expectations of the future. No wonder I cant stop watching this movie.

Let me know how you get on with this please?

I got myself ready, at the end of the work day, ready to sit with this exercise and give it my 110%. I sat and meditated for 3 minutes - concentration meditation, anapana style. Then with my eyes open, I began looking out in front of me. I took in the scene, soaked it in fully - I had observed every inch the room, witnessing (controlling?) the process as I looked around.

I continued looking for a few minutes, suddenly aware of the fact I was watching the mind labelling the world around me. It felt a little recursive, confusing and then that feeling had gone. But I cant lie, I was finding it difficult to do this - to observe the mind actually dividing and labelling was hard and I am not even sure I did it right. I see the world of objects, but the world and its meaning that I look on to, is 100% complete without a gap - I guess I am looking for some gap between experience and the movie of objects I see...

I was literally ready to write that I cant see the mind dividing and labelling...and then I thought I had it, an experience of feeling the view without meaning, right before it had meaning, if that makes any sense. I find I stare out and stop blinking, which feels like I am applying effort. It doesnt help that I have mental structures and beliefs around the knowledge based understandings of these glimpses. I see how they get in the way.

I may have been over-trying, but I found it difficult to try stop watching the objects as labelled objects. The best I could achieve was a kind of a glazed look that made my eyes grow tired. Yet from that position, the scene was just a scene. I am not sure if what you are truly asking me is, is to get to that state where the scene is blank of meaning, and then from that position, look at the seeing itself.

I tried to do this, and I did have a moment when I realized I was closer than I realize...but there were two. "Me", ..., me and something else. It felt like the real me. Part of it felt identified with a picture of me, but there was another part of this that I am struggling to describe - genuinely. It doesnt feel contrived, or from the mind.

I have also noticed that I have had this sense before, of a different Me "in here". I dont know what this sense is. Its a Me I only find if I spend some time inquiring with myself; but I always thought it was myself talking to myself in my mind. Maybe it is, I dont know.

Just look at the seeing itself - this was in all honesty, confusing to me. I felt myself getting twisted in my mind - See the seeing itself...what does this mean? Thats what came up for me. I was unable to really succeed at looking at the seeing itself. I was tied up in what my mind was trying to figure out how to look at the seeing.

But I got something from this. I am realizing there is this other sense that I have observed many times before and never taken notice. But there is this normal story called Nick that I play, but theres another one, a more personal one inside. Thats all i can say about it - it feels like me, but not me. And I can have moments where I realize I am aware "this is not who I am". I am realizing that I am aware that this is not who I am. If I was aware of this sense, who is realizing this awareness? That thought has a feeling of sadness with it. Does this mean that it is still just the mind?

Thank you Nic,

Nick.

[Skygazer74]

Hi NIck,

I appreciate the effort you put in here, however I feel like this got a little more complicated than it needed to, it is meant to show an experience of seeing without the thought processes. I get it, we are so used to working things out intellectually, and this is almost an undoing of that! It can be difficult if we are used to intellectual exercises. In all honesty the more you think about this the further you would be from the seeing. We are looking for an experience of seeing, and just seeing. Try to keep it simple - it is not a trick of any kind, just an invitation to fall into experience more directly.

Also, try not to worry about doing it right, or fall into giving yourself a hard time about it. If it were really easy, we wouldn't need a guide!

I have also noticed that I have had this sense before, of a different Me "in here". I dont know what this sense is. Its a Me I only find if I spend some time inquiring with myself; but I always thought it was myself talking to myself in my mind. Maybe it is, I dont know.

Sounds like a sense of a witness/witnessing self, and a self to witness (!) I was thinking about something similar the other day - in relation to the phrase 'beating myself up.' It suggests there is a sense of a self that is beating a self up, almost implying two selves. It is odd, because in truth, neither exist. They can only exist as thoughts, a kind of story.

What do we really mean when we say that 'I' am talking to 'myself?' What is actually happening?

I ask this not to elicit a story, but to invite you to look at the actual experience that this refers to, and see what is happening directly. Not with intellect, but with awareness. Naked awareness, seeing clearly.



Let's try a similar exercise from another angle and perhaps this will show you more of what I am pointing to:

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know how that one goes, and remember to keep it simple if possible :)

Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

Thank you - I was aware actually that I was likely making it way too complicated. I considered scrapping the message and condensing it, but decided that it would be best to send it unfettered - I am sure its better to see that I am overcomplicating things truthfully, to avoid wasting both our times. I appreciate the feedback.

I will go through this again after work today Nic, and will report back.

Thank you.

Nick.

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

OK...trying to keep this much simpler than the previous exercise.

After spending time with an apple, I went through your posits and questions. This is what came up for me:

What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

Color - yes I agree, I can see the red and the yellow of the apple. Regardless of it being labelled an apple, I am experiencing the color. This does make sense. And I also admit I have never thought of it this way before, but I see what you are pointing at.

I did have thoughts - I saw and silently said "I see an apple. I see its small, I see its stalk, and its shadow". I am left wondering, what if the thoughts werent there, would I just see color? It does seem like the thoughts create the story of this shape and color.

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

The bit that I am getting a better sense of tonight, is "experience". I admit yesterday I had a challenge understanding what bit or pieces were what. Tonight I am realizing that there are raw things that are actual experience, such as hearing the birds sing, or burning my hand on the plate. That experience happens before anything else. Back to the apple, I dont experience an apple at all - I experience color and shape (shape the product of how the color changes around the edges of the circular apple), but there is not apple per se. Its only an apple because I see this color and shape and the mind creates this story about it.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Is there this "thing" sitting on my desk? Its an inanimate thing, until I look at it, impute "apple" onto it and all of a sudden theres an apple. I dont know if this is what you are pointing at, but it feels like it is. So to your question, is there really an "apple", I feel confident in saything this isnt this thing called an apple, until I look at it.

Because my Mahayana background, I can at least get an intellectual sense of this from past study into emptiness - the word "impute" came from my mind as I was thinking this through, which I remember was part of the major teaching I studied on emptiness. That is, that there is no "apple" in its own right on its own side, and that I impute the object of an apple onto the object. I know I shouldnt be referring to these things, but they are naturally coming up - spiritual baggage for sure.

But my absolute, immediate experience (understanding) right here and now, is that no, there is no apple that I am experiencing. I am experiencing color and shape, and I am experiencing the thoughts that arise on their own accord. But I am not experiencing the apple - I cannot, certainly intellectually, state that this is indeed an apple from its own side.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

OK. So the actual experience I know for sure, through once of these 5 gateways, but the labelled object "apple" I have no actual experience of. I cannot put apple on the left side:

Taste => "apple"
Color => "apple"
Sensation (touch) => "apple"
Smell => "apple"
Thought about or of => "apple"

Everything on the left I DO experience, and therefore they are legit aspects of what I am experiencing. But I cannot put "apple" on the left:

"apple" => ???? Error.

Because of this,it is definitely and unequivocally impossible for me to say that an "apple" truly exists.

Simple! :)

For the genuine first time, I think I understand what this is pointing to - that there are labels, but those labels that I take to exist as true objects from their own side, I cannot ever experience (at the moment) without the actual gateway experience being broken down into a labelled object. A tree - there is no tree. I can truly experience the color of the trunk and the color of the branches and leaves, but it is by convention that this is labelled a tree. Therefore if I am not looking and experiencing the color "tree", is there a tree? I guess this is the meaning behind the Koan If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? I want to keep things simple, but the thing I feel I do know right now is there is no "tree" in the first place if there isnt a human mind to perceive it.

I am going to let this sink in...

Thank you Nic,

Nick.

[Skygazer74]

Hi Nick,

Perfect! Nice looking. I am pleased that it is starting to become clear. The teachings on emptiness are helpful, and true, as they also seek to undercut the assumptions and labels and cravings we lay onto things. The rub is applying that same truth to 'our side' of the dualistic equation!

Tonight I am realizing that there are raw things that are actual experience, such as hearing the birds sing, or burning my hand on the plate. That experience happens before anything else.

This is it - this is what is meant by DE. Have you heard of Padmasambhava's text 'Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness?' The title says all we need to know in a way!

I realise it might need to settle and integrate, so we can just let that take the time it will. You can simply keep coming back and examining that pointing about the experience of seeing (or hearing etc) through your day. I found it helpful to just sit in the park and look at the light and the wind dancing in the trees, and let it sink in and become really clear (and beautiful!) Hopefully you will find it an enjoyable and liberating experience.

I was tempted to plough ahead but I do not want to rush you or overload you.

Let me know when you want to try another exercise,

Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic,

Perfect! Nice looking. I am pleased that it is starting to become clear. The teachings on emptiness are helpful, and true, as they also seek to undercut the assumptions and labels and cravings we lay onto things. The rub is applying that same truth to 'our side' of the dualistic equation!

Thanks for the fast reply. Great to hear this is on the right path. I intend to spend some contemplative time today to go through this and journal. I realize as I write, the concept addressed in this recent exercise is interesting, but I see that I am looking for something more - expectations. What do I do with this knowledge? Do I have to keep going over it, keep thinking about it, until some shift occurs?

That said, I want to lay down expectations and just keep going back to the experience.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I8uV-Y ... sp=sharing

I do have the book you mentioned too. I also have Greg Goode and Rupert Spira, which I think might be similar to this way of thinking.

Thank you again Nic,

Nick.

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

Don’t worry we aren’t done yet :)

Let me know when you feel ready for another exercise.

Nic

[Skygazer74]

Hi Nick,

Hope you are well? Just to keep momentum up have a go at this, it is still on the topic of really seeing the difference between DE and thought or labels:

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

Apologies this is actually delayed - I intended to write this morning but something came up and I lost time.

Yesterday (Sunday), I had a 1:1 session with Ilona. It was actually quite profound. We discussed this exercise we did with the apple, and continued to think about how things arise but I am the one constant; we explored this from a few angles. Right at the end I had the most shocking realization that there is something very obvious that I have taken for granted and never noticed - that as my attention changes, what is the attention is what becomes the thing I am involved in. Like a movie. But when I was then asked to explore what is this "Nick" that I identify with, I had the most profound glimpse of the truth that "Nick" arises within me. I was aware of "Nick" coming into the experience. It doesnt sound like much as I write it down, but it felt somewhat shocking, and important.

I have been following this exercise you sent over, becoming aware of the experience and classifying it. I found this quite nice - as soon as I become aware of whatever it is, such as seeing, smell, sensation - I have un unexplainable change in perspective from one of being absorbed to one of observation. My understanding is that I am this "I" inside that I have felt and never considered to look deeper into. This exercise takes me back home to that experience of looking out and being aware of these things - the act of moving into the position of being aware of what the actual direct experience is, feels like it is not the mind thats doing the experiencing at all....in fact every time I practice this, I get to expereince this feeling I had taken for granted for so long before.

I can have a direct experience of Thought, from the position of what I think is Awareness. And what has been quite interesting has been the experience of sitting as or in this position of Awareness, and inquirying into "what is this Nick?" As soon as I ask this this Nick I have taken myself to be does come up. I have moments were this has been quite strong, though not as strong as it was when Ilona asked the question yesterday. And I also have the experience of being aware that the thoughts coming up are along the lines of "arrww its not as strong a feeling as it was yesterday" or "I'm losing this". Yeh I have this knowing that there isnt anything to lose, because I am this "I" that is constant, and the only thing that is being thought of as being lost, is of the Mind. And just realizing that, am more intune with this "I" again.

I appreciate this is the very tip of an iceberg, I get the idea about there is no where to go but right here, for the first time after a lot of study of this stuff. Part of me is fighting - it cant be this obvious and simple surely....and thats the seeking again, the hypnosis. I am definitely becoming more aware of this experiential narcolepsy.

Thank you for this exercise Nic,

Nick.

[Skygazer74]

Hi Nick,

Sounds like a fruitful few days, and don't worry I am not concerned by delays - I may delay sometimes too. The main thing is that the enquiry and looking are really alive for you and there is daily looking and exploring.

My understanding is that I am this "I" inside that I have felt and never considered to look deeper into. This exercise takes me back home to that experience of looking out and being aware of these things - the act of moving into the position of being aware of what the actual direct experience is, feels like it is not the mind thats doing the experiencing at all.

Yes, so it looks like there is more clarity around DE and what mind does - do you feel that is true? If there is any doubt we can clarify it in time :)

My understanding is that I am this "I" inside that I have felt and never considered to look deeper into. This exercise takes me back home to that experience of looking out and being aware of these things - the act of moving into the position of being aware of what the actual direct experience is, feels like it is not the mind thats doing the experiencing at all.

Yes! Is there anything separate from the experience, or is experience simply as it is?

Since you are bringing up the experience of looking out at things, it seems like perfect timing to try this exercise, which is the first part of looking at seeing itself:

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc

We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own.

Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.

Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?




Best wishes,

Nic

[Mettafort]

Hi Nic-

Yes, so it looks like there is more clarity around DE and what mind does - do you feel that is true? If there is any doubt we can clarify it in time :)

I must admit, tonight, I have some doubt. I am still working on that DE piece. Yesterday I think this would have been answered differently. I had a very busy day and sitting down to practice tonight, I still have this sense that this is all a hallucination and that I am the see-er. But when I closed my eyes to do this exercise, the mind was racing. I sat for some time waiting for it to settle, and when I considered your question...

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

Yes and no - but the yes i think is due to the arisings that came up in the darkness, but I know the focus is to stick with just the seeing. With the eyes close, from a seeing perspective, there is just the blackness.

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found

This was a little tricky - I found myself going to the body sensations and really got stuck with the sense I am this body. As I write this, I know intellectually thats not true, but with the eyes closed, the sense that I am this complex of sensations called body, was what was identifying with the See-er.

I redid this just now, and labelled the sensations, and thoughts, and the sounds to try to not get swept up in the hypnosis. And doing this again, I notice more that the “witness” is before these arisings, but I cannot find it. Its a deeper knowing as before though - maybe because I am tired.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found

hhhm....I tonight kept feeling a strong association or identification with the body. Even just focusing on the blackness, I had a sense that “person”, “body”, “I” are mental constructs, and I felt a little glimpse or experience of just seeing blackness with these other sensations, but there is no person here. But it wasnt as strong as it has been over the past few days.

I am going do this tomorrow morning - I think the morning is going to be better for me actually.

Thank you for this exercise Nic,

Nick.