The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By seeing no real, inherent self I understand getting rid of the illusion that this "I" is not the center of the universe, but a story made by memories and language from our early childhood that we take up on this world to function and identify ourselves.

What are you looking for at LU?
After reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers I could see that this self does not exist and everything is happening by itself. After that moment I had a feeling that the seeking has stopped and I can now walk in the park and just sit on a bench like Eckhart Tolle or go deeply into meditations without trying ( because there was no one who is trying!), but the next days i felt worse then before. One of the things was that i couldn't grasp the concept of no free will (even though I knew there is no doer) and the other thing was I couldn't see what is the purpose of doing anything knowing that what i thought was me is just a story and that everything is just happening. Then I've read some more guided conversations on Ilona blog expecting that I would find the answers but I couldn't, so here I am.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From this guided conversation I expect to get rid of all the aspects of the false self that are hiding, to get closure on the concept of no free will and just be in the flow of life. I don't expect something to change about my state or my feelings, I got rid of those expectations from reading all these guided conversations.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started this journey few months ago and had a burning desire to know the truth. I started with meditation and I stumbled on vedanta and non duality. Since then I've been reading books from Ramana Maharsi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Rupert Spira, Eckhart Toelle and also watching videos related to spirituality every single day.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that? What are you hoping for to change? What do you hope that should happen?

One of the things was that i couldn't grasp the concept of no free will (even though I knew there is no doer)

Could you please write a bit about how does choice and free will show up in your everyday life?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thank you so much for your time and your assistance.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Yes we can agree on this, I will be posting every day.

Tell me, what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that? What are you hoping for to change? What do you hope that should happen?

I am looking for more clarity in this inquiry and I don't expect my life to change in any way. What I am hoping for is just change in perspective and be more in flow with life. Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water, right :)?

Alright now about choice and free will this is what I see. It looks like we make choice depending on the situation and our likes and dislikes. If we have multiple choices for something we will choose the thing that we think is the best for us, but also sometimes we have only once choice. Reading this back sounds so contradictory, because now it looks like sometimes we have free will, sometimes we don't. Went to the balcony to think, and asked myself who made the decision to come here? Looking now it seems like that was made instinctively and then immediately a thought came "let's go to the balcony". Can't see if other choices are made like that, this is confusing and I find it hard to focus now.

Thank you,

Baze

Hi Baze,

Thank you so much for your time and your assistance.

You are welcome :)

I am looking for more clarity in this inquiry and I don't expect my life to change in any way

It’s very good that you don’t have any grandiose expectation. :) But please watch out for expectations, because there might be some hiding somewhere and they can come up at any time of the inquiry.

All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it. They are not useful but in the way.

Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water, right :)?

And what if there is nobody and nothing to be enlightened? What if enlightenment is nothing else than a concept? :)

Enlightenment is a belief based on another belief, that there is a separate self, who could gain enlightenment at some point in the future. Something that could be attained by the self. Or something that I could become. Or something that could happen to me.

Alright now about choice and free will this is what I see. It looks like we make choice depending on the situation and our likes and dislikes. If we have multiple choices for something we will choose the thing that we think is the best for us, but also sometimes we have only once choice. Reading this back sounds so contradictory, because now it looks like sometimes we have free will, sometimes we don't.

When you say “sometimes we have free will, sometimes we don’t” – then what does the word ‘we’ refer to?

What is it that sometimes might have free will, but other times it might not?

Where is this I? – Please point to it with your finger (literally). Where does your finger point to?

Went to the balcony to think, and asked myself who made the decision to come here? Looking now it seems like that was made instinctively and then immediately a thought came "let's go to the balcony".

Yes :)

Vivien

Hi Vivien :),

When you say “sometimes we have free will, sometimes we don’t” – then what does the word ‘we’ refer to?

I meant generally we as human beings, but the thing is we either have free will or we don't, we can't have little bit of both. If every decision, choice from small to big is predetermined does this body-mind have a say in anything at all? Does this mean that we have to accept what is and just let this life, this story play out?

What is it that sometimes might have free will, but other times it might not?

I don't really know, I want to say me, but I also know that it is not me. When I am looking I can't find anything.

Where is this I? – Please point to it with your finger (literally). Where does your finger point to?

If I point with my finger I'm pointing to my head, to my mind because I know it exists only in my mind.

Thank you,

Baze

Hi Baze,

I meant generally we as human beings, but the thing is we either have free will or we don't, we can't have little bit of both. If every decision, choice from small to big is predetermined does this body-mind have a say in anything at all? Does this mean that we have to accept what is and just let this life, this story play out?

What I’m seeing from your replies that you are trying to figure this out by thinking and not by experiencing. But that’s OK, almost all of us is hardly ever pay attention to experience, since we are so busy with thinking and thinking and conceptualizing. We are so used to thinking that we might not even see the difference between thinking and experience. This is how we humans live our lives. In a fabricated virtual reality of own thought fantasies.

I don't really know, I want to say me, but I also know that it is not me. When I am looking I can't find anything.

Good. This was an attempt to experience the I. In order to experience it, first it has to be found. Just as if you want to experience a cup of coffee, first you have find a cup of coffee. Otherwise, it’s not possible to experience it, just to THINK about it, just to IMAGINE it.

If I point with my finger I'm pointing to my head, to my mind because I know it exists only in my mind.

Great. This could be a good starting point.

It’s very important that you put aside ALL learned knowledge, all beliefs, all assumption, theories, philosophies, speculation, imagination and you stick to only your own immediate experience. Only to the facts of experiential reality.

So, if you put aside all learned knowledge, HOW do you know that there is a mind inside your head?
Can you find a mind?

You can easily find your head, right?

Now, focus on experiencing your head.
Experience = seeing/color, hearing/sound, tasting/taste, smelling/smell, feeling/sensation

How is you head experienced?
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?

And now shift your focus to experiencing the mind.

How is it experienced? How does it look like? How big it is? What shape it has? What color? Texture? Does it have a smell? Taste? Where is its exact location?

Can you find a mind at all?

Can a mind as such be experienced at all? Or it can only THOUGHT OF, and IMAGINED?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Yes, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between direct experience and thinking.

So, if you put aside all learned knowledge, HOW do you know that there is a mind inside your head?
Can you find a mind?

If I put aside all learned knowledge, I don't know if there is a mind inside my head, it's blank. No I can't find it.

How is you head experienced?
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?

Yes I can easily find my head. I can only experience it like sensations and feelings like pain, pressure because of a mild headache right now.

How is it experienced? How does it look like? How big it is? What shape it has? What color? Texture? Does it have a smell? Taste? Where is its exact location?

Can you find a mind at all?

Can a mind as such be experienced at all? Or it can only THOUGHT OF, and IMAGINED?

Mind can't be experienced like color, taste, sensation, sound or smell. It has no shape, form or size. I don't know its exact location, only thing I can find are thoughts, images and sometimes stories being played out by this thoughts and images. It feels like these thoughts and images appear in some space behind my eyes and forehead. I can't experience such mind, so I can only say it's thought of and imagined.

Baze

Hi Baze,

Yes, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between direct experience and thinking.

Yes. We are very prone to take our thoughts as facts without even noticing that we are doing it. So if there is anything to learn at all, then exactly this… to be able to distinguish between experience and thinking. But don’t worry, we will focus on this a lot.

Yes I can easily find my head. I can only experience it like sensations and feelings like pain, pressure because of a mild headache right now.

Yes, the head is experienced as a sensation.

Mind can't be experienced like color, taste, sensation, sound or smell. It has no shape, form or size. I don't know its exact location, only thing I can find are thoughts, images and sometimes stories being played out by this thoughts and images.

Yes, nice looking.

It feels like these thoughts and images appear in some space behind my eyes and forehead. I can't experience such mind, so I can only say it's thought of and imagined.

Please try to locate the exact spot where thoughts SEEMS to appear.

Where is that location exactly? Pin point it with millimetre/quarter of inch precision.
And what is it exactly that is experienced at that location?
Can you find a thought there?
Is there anything else than sensations?

Also, while doing this, watch out for visual thoughts.
Is there a visual thought/image coming up showing the space behind the eyes as the source or location of thoughts?

HOW do you know exactly that thoughts have any location at all?
Where does the information of ‘thoughts appearing behind the eyes and forehead’ coming from?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Where is that location exactly? Pin point it with millimetre/quarter of inch precision.
And what is it exactly that is experienced at that location?
Can you find a thought there?
Is there anything else than sensations?

I can't find that location and I can't pin point it. No thought there, the only thing I can experience is sensations.

Is there a visual thought/image coming up showing the space behind the eyes as the source or location of thoughts?

HOW do you know exactly that thoughts have any location at all?
Where does the information of ‘thoughts appearing behind the eyes and forehead’ coming from?

No, visual thoughts/images are showing up on something like floating screen in space (haha), it's kinda hard to explain.

I don't know exactly if thoughts have any location at all. That information came probably from something I have heard or read somewhere. So it's only a thought about the location of thoughts :).

Baze

Hi Baze,

I don't know exactly if thoughts have any location at all. That information came probably from something I have heard or read somewhere. So it's only a thought about the location of thoughts :)

But do you really see that thoughts don’t appear at any location, or you just made a logical conclusion?

What is making thoughts to appear?

“I think” – is a widely accepted common belief.

But where is the I that thinks?
Where is the one that is supposedly doing the thinking?
Is there a thinker at all? Or thoughts are just happening without anything or anyone doing it?

Be careful not just think through the answers, but really investigate what is going on.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

But do you really see that thoughts don’t appear at any location, or you just made a logical conclusion?

What is making thoughts to appear?

No it is not logical conclusion, I can't find or see any specific location that they appear.
Sometimes it looks like some thoughts appear because of some sensation in the body, for example when I get hungry, there is the thought I'm hungry and I need to eat something, or maybe some sensations of pain also trigger thoughts like I have a headache I need to drink more water and take an aspirin. Other times they appear totally random, unrelated to something I'm doing or the situation I am in.

But where is the I that thinks?
Where is the one that is supposedly doing the thinking?
Is there a thinker at all? Or thoughts are just happening without anything or anyone doing it?

While reading my previous answer about what is making thoughts appear I realized that I don't make those sensations to appear, so if I don't make those sensations to appear, the thoughts following those sensations appear according to the sensation. So there is no I that thinks or someone who is supposedly doing the thinking, no thinker at all. There is just thinking and thoughts are just happening.

Also I just want to tell you that I will have limited access to internet the next two days because I'm going out of town, so I might break the rule of posting every day :).

Thank you so much Vivien.

Baze

Hi Baze,

Also I just want to tell you that I will have limited access to internet the next two days because I'm going out of town, so I might break the rule of posting every day :).

All right, thank you for letting me know. But even if you cannot post, please look as often during the day as you can. Look the same thing again and again, even if it seems to be clear.

So there is no I that thinks or someone who is supposedly doing the thinking, no thinker at all. There is just thinking and thoughts are just happening.

And how does it feel to see that the person you believed yourself to be in the whole life (to be the thinker of thoughts) is simply not there?

Or is there another I, just not as a thinker?

Is there ANY thought that is not on automatic? Any at all?

Please spend the following day to checking if any thought were thought by a ‘person inside the head’ or thoughts happen on their own, without anyone doing it.

Vivien

HI Vivien,

Please spend the following day to checking if any thought were thought by a ‘person inside the head’ or thoughts happen on their own, without anyone doing it.

Looking back on the previous days, I can't find a thought that "I" thought. Every thought seems that is happening on its own with anyone doing it. Thoughts just came depending on the situation, if something unexpected happened, thoughts just adapted to that situation. Also looking back it seemed like it was more acceptance, then resistance to all situations. I can't find any thought that didn't happened automatic.

And how does it feel to see that the person you believed yourself to be in the whole life (to be the thinker of thoughts) is simply not there?

Or is there another I, just not as a thinker?

On one side it feels liberating to know that, it feels like i'm not responsible for the bad thoughts that sometimes appear or that there is no one trying to think for solutions to some problems, that all there is just thinking and thoughts happening. On the other side there is this fear that if everything is just happening and something bad happens there is no "I" that can do anything and what is left is just acceptance to what is, what are goals worth if everything is just happening with no one to do something about them? Can't find another I, but also question comes to mind, who is afraid if there is no I to be afraid?

Thank you,

Baze

Hi Baze,

Looking back on the previous days, I can't find a thought that "I" thought. Every thought seems that is happening on its own with anyone doing it. Thoughts just came depending on the situation, if something unexpected happened, thoughts just adapted to that situation. Also looking back it seemed like it was more acceptance, then resistance to all situations. I can't find any thought that didn't happened automatic.

You did very nice observations :)

On the other side there is this fear that if everything is just happening and something bad happens there is no "I" that can do anything and what is left is just acceptance to what is, what are goals worth if everything is just happening with no one to do something about them?

But there has never ever been a self, who could control anything, and yet decisions have been made, plans for the future have been made, and actions based on those decisions have been performed, even at difficult or ‘bad’ times. So actually nothing has changed. Just the fact of there being no controller has been recognized. But decision will be made just as before. Nothing else changes, only the recognition of it.

Is there need for self, a controller, a doer, in order to decision and action happen?
Or decision and action/dong happens on their own, without anything or anyone making them happen?

Can't find another I, but also question comes to mind, who is afraid if there is no I to be afraid?

This is a very good question.

Can you find someone who/what is actually afraid, or you can only find THOUGHTS ABOUT a me being afraid?
Are thoughts about ‘me being afraid’ are on behalf of an ACTUAL, REAL person?

Is Baze the author of internal commentary?

Is Baze the thinker of the thought of ‘being afraid of seeing no one being at the wheel’?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

But there has never ever been a self, who could control anything, and yet decisions have been made, plans for the future have been made, and actions based on those decisions have been performed, even at difficult or ‘bad’ times. So actually nothing has changed. Just the fact of there being no controller has been recognized. But decision will be made just as before. Nothing else changes, only the recognition of it.

Is there need for self, a controller, a doer, in order to decision and action happen?
Or decision and action/dong happens on their own, without anything or anyone making them happen?

You are right :), I just forgot to look at this from that perspective, everything is the same the only difference is the recognition of it. So no, there is no need for self, a controller or a doer for a decision and action to happen. Actions and decisions just happen on their own without anyone or anything making them happen, it's just a thought and mind labeling the experience with "I did it".

Can you find someone who/what is actually afraid, or you can only find THOUGHTS ABOUT a me being afraid?
Are thoughts about ‘me being afraid’ are on behalf of an ACTUAL, REAL person?

Is Baze the author of internal commentary?

Is Baze the thinker of the thought of ‘being afraid of seeing no one being at the wheel’?

I can't find someone who is actually afraid only the thoughts about a me being afraid and sensations of fear in the body. I don't know what you really mean on behalf of an actual, real person. If another actual, real person is just a human being, just another name and form in nature then no, they are not about a real person.

No, Baze is not the author of internal commentary or the thinker of thoughts, but it seems like all these thoughts appearing are about this Baze and that same Baze is being afraid of seeing no one being at the wheel.

Thank you,

Baze