The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The person, making decision, talking, thinking, acting, and feeling doesn't exist; All the functions happen of their own; there is no doer.

What are you looking for at LU?
To find out the truth about myself; to awaken to my true essence; to abide as my true self and not to be tossed by the tides of emotions, thoughts, and impressions from withing and without. To call off the long term search.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To allow me to be myself in regard to my thoughts, doubts, and feelings, to express them and ask questions. Also, I do hope that the guide would help me all the way to the full abiding realization of my true self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate daily and listen to various satsangs and spiritual talks on self-inquiry and realization of truth on youtube.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hello Far,

I see you've been waiting for a time. Are you ready to roll? :-)

Some groundrules:
- Please learn to use the quote function; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- You can subscribe to this thread, so you'll receive a message when I reply. See the button next to 'Post Reply'
- Try to look as much as you can, so that the replies you give to me come as much from your experience as you can, not so much from what you think.

To find out the truth about myself; to awaken to my true essence; to abide as my true self and not to be tossed by the tides of emotions, thoughts, and impressions from withing and without. To call off the long term search.

To allow me to be myself in regard to my thoughts, doubts, and feelings, to express them and ask questions. Also, I do hope that the guide would help me all the way to the full abiding realization of my true self.

I must say that what I'm offering is only a recognition that there is no such things as a person/self/Far, this is not the same as full abiding realization. I'm saying that so that you can lower your fantasies about it, what might allow us to look more focused and calmly at our investigation.

Here two questions to give you/us something to start of with:
- If you look within for a person, somewhere to hang the label person or self on, what do you find?
- Could it be that there isn't such a thing and that is it only a concept?

Just give me your thoughts on these questions back after you looked and thought about it. No need to be correct, just give me a little ramble of your thoughts and findings!

With love, have a good day,
Floris

I see you've been waiting for a time. Are you ready to roll? :-)

Hi Florisness,
I am sorry for replying too late. I was somehow thinking that I will receive an email when a teacher is available. So my apology and please let me know if you have availability so I can continue with answering the questions you posted.
Many thanks
Far

Hi Far,

I am sorry for replying too late. I was somehow thinking that I will receive an email when a teacher is available. So my apology and please let me know if you have availability so I can continue with answering the questions you posted.

Your message came as a surprise! You can subscribe to the topic (see button next to 'post reply') and receive an e-mail that way if you wish. Yes sure, I'm happy to proceed and await your answers:)

Love,
Floris

Hi Flori,
I am so glad that you responded. Let's begin.

what I'm offering is only a recognition that there is no such things as a person/self/Far,

That is great, as Far is absent sometimes or forgotten, not sure. But surely she comes back.

If you look within for a person, somewhere to hang the label person or self on, what do you find?

I find something like a huge thought made of ideas, dialogues, thoughts, impulses; it has a voice, it talks; it has emotions and mind, it has kind of personality; it thinks and has thinking and behavioral patterns; Yet, there are rare short moments when it is not there.

Could it be that there isn't such a thing and that is it only a concept?

Yes, Flori. It is definitely not a thing; it is a concept but it persists, it is readily present most of the time in all my interactions; it decides them. It is mixed in my thoughts and emotions, it is involved in everything and it rules my mind. It lives me.

Much love and gratitude

I am so glad that you responded. Let's begin.

Sounds good, let's start:-)

That is great, as Far is absent sometimes or forgotten, not sure. But surely she comes back.

I find something like a huge thought made of ideas, dialogues, thoughts, impulses; it has a voice, it talks; it has emotions and mind, it has kind of personality; it thinks and has thinking and behavioral patterns; Yet, there are rare short moments when it is not there.

Seems like a good start for our inquiry! If it is (like a) thought, then how could it speak? Can thoughts speak and think? Can a thought own emotions?

Yes, Flori. It is definitely not a thing; it is a concept but it persists, it is readily present most of the time in all my interactions; it decides them. It is mixed in my thoughts and emotions, it is involved in everything and it rules my mind. It lives me.

When you say "it lives in me", what does 'me' refer to here. The body?
Also, when you say 'it rules my mind', what is this you that the mind belongs to? Can you actually look and see if you can find some thing/entity/person/thought that the mind belongs to?

Much love,
Floris

Thanks Flori,

If it is (like a) thought, then how could it speak? Can thoughts speak and think? Can a thought own emotions?

A thought cannot speak or think, but when I look inside there is a dynamism happening which involves thinking, emotions, talking, and acting, and reacting.

When you say "it lives in me", what does 'me' refer to here. The body?

No, ‘me’ doesn’t refer to the body but it seems linked to this body. 'Me' probably refers to the same ‘dynamism happening’ which thinks, feels, talks, decides, moves the body, interprets everything, and writes to you.

Also, when you say 'it rules my mind', what is this you that the mind belongs to?

The question is mind-blowing and I don’t know the answer; but when I look to find or see this ‘you’, there is just seeing.

Can you actually look and see if you can find something/entity/person/thought that the mind belongs to?

While trying to answer this question, I see that I have lost the track of the mind; as if it is not there. There is no something/entity/thought owning the mind either. Rather, there are just currents of thoughts coming and going; thoughts coming up with an answer to your question or bringing up more questions; ebb and flow of thoughts, sometimes an impulse to react to the thoughts which fades or gets stronger and there is a deep persistent sadness felt as a heaviness in the heart centre.

Hi Far,

I'm very sorry, but I checked the forum before but didn't see any notification for having received a new message in this thread. I'll be more observant next time.

A thought cannot speak or think, but when I look inside there is a dynamism happening which involves thinking, emotions, talking, and acting, and reacting.

okay, clear. If you take a look again, can you find some sort of biological entity/person which is doing or controlling these things?

No, ‘me’ doesn’t refer to the body but it seems linked to this body. 'Me' probably refers to the same ‘dynamism happening’ which thinks, feels, talks, decides, moves the body, interprets everything, and writes to you.

Here is an exercise for you. Can you please wiggle a finger, and then look at what is controlling, or doing that? Also, is some entity findable which was/is choosing to pick a certain finger to wiggle?

The question is mind-blowing and I don’t know the answer; but when I look to find or see this ‘you’, there is just seeing.

I'm very happy to assist in blowing your mind a little:-) Great looking and observation!

While trying to answer this question, I see that I have lost the track of the mind; as if it is not there. There is no something/entity/thought owning the mind either. Rather, there are just currents of thoughts coming and going; thoughts coming up with an answer to your question or bringing up more questions; ebb and flow of thoughts, sometimes an impulse to react to the thoughts which fades or gets stronger and there is a deep persistent sadness felt as a heaviness in the heart centre.

Sounds good to me, good observing there. I would suggest when an emotion comes up to be with it and allow it as best you can, but you might already know that.
If you ask yourself the question 'Who (or what) am I?', then do you see all the thoughts and feelings around this question? What would be left of a 'you' when all these thoughts and feelings weren't there?

Much love,
Floris

I'm very sorry, but I checked the forum before but didn't see any notification for having received a new message in this thread. I'll be more observant next time.

Hi Floris,
Thank you very much for your message. No worries at all. I have been doing the same; just checking the notifications however this morning “I happened” to scroll down and find your message. It is interesting as there was no thought behind scrolling down to find your message. It just happened. What was required happened without any thought suggesting or commanding it. Yet, there are many many actions or reactions prompted by thoughts.

If you take a look again, can you find some sort of biological entity/person which is doing or controlling these things?

No. there is no biological being. It is abstract; it feels like a voice, or a thinking process which comments on and interprets thoughts, events, actions, feelings, and sensations. It is busy with commenting, interpreting, giving meanings, and analysing, dividing them as good or bad in an attempt to control them and sets up action strategies accordingly. The whole process produces more thoughts and emotions and it prompts actions and reactions. It has no physicality but it exists. It could be the mind, maybe.

Can you please wiggle a finger, and then look at what is controlling, or doing that? Also, is some entity findable which was/is choosing to pick a certain finger to wiggle?

It is as if the mind decides or commands the wiggling. There is no doer apparently; it is a command from the mind and the movement of the finger happens. The mind would say move to the right or left; and it may ask it to stop.

I would suggest when an emotion comes up to be with it and allow it as best you can, but you might already know that.

I always thought that allowing an emotion and being with it was simply letting it be there and acknowledge its presence; but it wouldn’t settle the difficult emotion as with this deep sadness, I tapped into it and acknowledged its content. There was an immediate release of that heaviness; though the sadness didn’t settle; the force resisting the sadness dissolved.

If you ask yourself the question 'Who (or what) am I?', then do you see all the thoughts and feelings around this question?

“Who am I” brings suggestions, thoughts, and emotions. There is fear but there is silence too. An urge to react to the fear and control thoughts rises. I want to resist the thoughts and fear in order to remain in the silent space. Again ‘I’ comes into the picture.

What would be left of a 'you' when all these thoughts and feelings weren't there?

Nothing remains. Then, fear rises followed by anxiety. Without them, there is nothing. I allow the fear/anxiety to be. It seems just contracted energy. I wonder how I named the contracted energy as ‘fear’. But a thought comes suggesting a story attached to the fear; reasoning the fear. I don’t want to buy into the suggestions and stories; then I feel I am resisting the thought. I am sorry it goes in a circle; looking, silence, thoughts, feelings, stories, resistance. Even though there is no ‘I’ orchestrating all this, but thoughts, fear, and resistance are happening.

In love and gratitude
Far

Hi Far,

Thank you for your nice post. It seems that you are very well on the right track!

No. there is no biological being. It is abstract; it feels like a voice, or a thinking process which comments on and interprets thoughts, events, actions, feelings, and sensations. It is busy with commenting, interpreting, giving meanings, and analysing, dividing them as good or bad in an attempt to control them and sets up action strategies accordingly. The whole process produces more thoughts and emotions and it prompts actions and reactions. It has no physicality but it exists. It could be the mind, maybe.

This is good. A couple of points:
- a couple times you say 'It is abstract, it feels like a voice.. It is busy with commenting'. If you look for this 'it', what do you actually find?
- is 'it' the 'mind'? What is mind? Can you look for the mind and tell me what you find? What do you think of your finding?

It is as if the mind decides or commands the wiggling. There is no doer apparently; it is a command from the mind and the movement of the finger happens. The mind would say move to the right or left; and it may ask it to stop.

Have you ever heard or seen something about the scientific experiments that show that sometimes a decision was made (for example to press a button), before the conscious mind knew about it, and only after the decision could already be seen in the brain, a thought appeared after a (couple of) seconds or so like 'I'm going to press this button'.
Does it feel like there is a lot of identity around actions that happen? Try this: Raise an arm as a you/person, and see how that feels. Then afterwards do it again, but now with the sense that it's just happening, effortlessly. Is there a difference between the two? Is the sense of identification true or necessary around bodily actions or thoughts? Or could this experience of being a doer be a lot of thoughts + feelings?

“Who am I” brings suggestions, thoughts, and emotions. There is fear but there is silence too. An urge to react to the fear and control thoughts rises. I want to resist the thoughts and fear in order to remain in the silent space. Again ‘I’ comes into the picture.

Okay, good. And good that you stayed in the observing as much as possible. So here you mention 'I want to resist the thoughts and fear..'.

Nothing remains. Then, fear rises followed by anxiety. Without them, there is nothing. I allow the fear/anxiety to be. It seems just contracted energy. I wonder how I named the contracted energy as ‘fear’. But a thought comes suggesting a story attached to the fear; reasoning the fear. I don’t want to buy into the suggestions and stories; then I feel I am resisting the thought. I am sorry it goes in a circle; looking, silence, thoughts, feelings, stories, resistance. Even though there is no ‘I’ orchestrating all this, but thoughts, fear, and resistance are happening.

And again here you mention something like 'I feel, I am resisting the thought'. So it seems that the experience of being a you/self comes into play when something is resisted. Can you create this experience of resistance and look and write what it actually is, what is actually going on? Is it something like thoughts + images? Is this what creates then the sense of being a you/self? What if there was no resistance, do you think there would be the experience of being a you/self there?


Okay I feel like I want to give you something more light and fun to look at after the above replies. So here is an exercise that can be insightful and fun. I just copied and pasted this part here as I use this more often. You can answer this in the same message, or if you rather, you could make it a separate reply at a later point. Up to you!

Most people feel that they are (biological) entities who are perceiving things, like the sight of a dog, the sound of a car, the sensations of touching something. This is evident in statements such as 'I am seeing a hand'. There are 3 assumptions there to look at now:
- The 'I am' which is seeing the hand'
- The 'seeing' which is what this 'I' is doing/undergoing
- The 'hand' which is the seen object by the 'I'.

Let's investigate this.
Optimally be somewhere where you can be relaxed and undisturbed, pull out your hand, or any other object you like, and look at it. Then answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?
- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?
- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing, e.g. the hand' going to a place in the head where it is received?
- Can you find something which is intrepeting the seen thing?

After these, 'go to' (notice) the experience called seeing, and then 'go to' the experience called the seen thing, e.g. the hand. Toggle your attention between the place/experience of these two thing, the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience?

After that, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'? is this your experience, or if not, then what is?


Much love, and wishing you well,
Floris

Hi Floris,
Thanks for your prompt post.

- a couple times you say 'It is abstract, it feels like a voice.. It is busy with commenting'. If you look for this 'it', what do you actually find?

Honestly and ultimately nothing. The idea of ‘it as interpreting, commenting, analysing’ is assumed.

- is 'it' the 'mind'? What is mind?

There is nothing; no mind.

Can you look for the mind and tell me what you find?

When I look for the mind, I don’t find anything. Along with it, all ideas about it disappear.

What do you think of your finding?

Mind seems as a title given to the interaction of thoughts by me. It could be a definition wrongly applied to the interplay of thoughts.

Have you ever heard or seen something about the scientific experiments that show that sometimes a decision was made (for example to press a button), before the conscious mind knew about it, and only after the decision could already be seen in the brain, a thought appeared after a (couple of) seconds or so like 'I'm going to press this button'.

I haven’t heard about the experiment you mentioned. But I have experienced moments when body moves around and engages in action when there is no thinking involved and suddenly there is a thought commenting on the action.

Does it feel like there is a lot of identity around actions that happen?

Yes, that is right, a lot of identity.

Try this: Raise an arm as a you/person, and see how that feels. Then afterwards do it again, but now with the sense that it's just happening, effortlessly. Is there a difference between the two?

There is a difference. When I raise my arm as a person, I can see that there is an idea as ‘I’, the doer, attached to the movement of my arm. When I do it again with the sense of it is happening, the movement of hand is just happening; it may move upward or to the left and right. No doer.

Is the sense of identification true or necessary around bodily actions or thoughts?

Actions and thoughts happen by themselves. Identification is not necessary but it may happen.

Or could this experience of being a doer be a lot of thoughts + feelings?

Yes, doer seems to be a complex combination of thoughts and feelings.

Can you create this experience of resistance and look and write what it actually is, what is actually going on?

An idea about what is happening or something which has already happened appears considering it as bad, harmful, or wrong which should be avoided or shouldn’t happen.

Is it something like thoughts + images?

Yes, it is based on the past experiences, memories, or learned lessons.

Is this what creates then the sense of being a you/self?

Not sure. It could be so.

What if there was no resistance, do you think there would be the experience of being a you/self there?

Without resistance, there wouldn’t be the sense of me/self .

Exercise

answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?

No.

- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?

No.

- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing, e.g. the hand' going to a place in the head where it is received?

No.

- Can you find something which is interpreting the seen thing?

No.

After these, 'go to' (notice) the experience called seeing, and then 'go to' the experience called the seen thing, e.g. the hand. Toggle your attention between the place/experience of these two thing, the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?

When I look at it without thinking, amazingly the answer is no, I cannot find any difference.

- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience?

Yes.

After that, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'?

‘I+see+a hand’ are the same.

is this your experience, or if not, then what is?

Wow…I am speechless.

Thank you so much.
Love
Far

Hi Far,

When I look for the mind, I don’t find anything. Along with it, all ideas about it disappear.

:-)

Mind seems as a title given to the interaction of thoughts by me. It could be a definition wrongly applied to the interplay of thoughts.

And that me is..? What? Where? Maybe the word 'me' is just a label, just as any other label, but with a lot of ideas wrapped around it? How would life be without the idea of a me? Anybody home there, or just an empty home (of presence/awareness)?

Without resistance, there wouldn’t be the sense of me/self .

okay, so what are you then? If not the constructed sense of self, what is really there that should be called I?

There is a difference. When I raise my arm as a person, I can see that there is an idea as ‘I’, the doer, attached to the movement of my arm. When I do it again with the sense of it is happening, the movement of hand is just happening; it may move upward or to the left and right. No doer.

And is there identity, i.e. thoughts and feelings around the sense of it being my arm too? Could it also be seen as 'just' an arm?

When I look at it without thinking, amazingly the answer is no, I cannot find any difference.
‘I+see+a hand’ are the same.

Great!

Love,
Floris

Hi Floris,

And that me is..? What? Where?

Yes, to what you mentioned; ‘me’ is another title just like ‘mind’ or ‘my’. Just labels with heaps of ideas.

How would life be without the idea of a me?

Life would be just occurring; flowing in perfection.

Anybody home there, or just an empty home (of presence/awareness)?

No one. Actions happen. Thinking, seeing, eating, writing to you happen. Thoughts, ideas, feelings, emotions, sensations appear and disappear. No doer, no me, no mine, no ‘I’, no mind. Just awareness.

okay, so what are you then?

Nothing. No ‘I’. Just seeing, hearing, noticing, moving, acting.

If not the constructed sense of self, what is really there that should be called I?

There is no ‘I’. ‘I’ doesn’t exist.

And is there identity, i.e. thoughts and feelings around the sense of it being my arm too? Could it also be seen as 'just' an arm?

There are thoughts and ideas claiming the arm as ‘my arm’ but when looking, it is just an arm.

In Love and immense gratitude
Far

Hi Far,

You're going lightning fast! Seems like you already have a lot of clarity around this, i.e. having seen through the assumptions of what was thought to be there. I'm just going to ask some more questions, to see if any remnants of unconsciousness are there, ready to be dissolved by conscious seeing.

First question, is there a change now compared to before the start of our conversation?

There are thoughts and ideas claiming the arm as ‘my arm’ but when looking, it is just an arm.

And these thoughts and ideas, could you say they come from somewhere, or that 'you' are responsible for them? Any thing found, it belongs to?

Nothing. No ‘I’. Just seeing, hearing, noticing, moving, acting.

Great. two things I'd like you to check.
First, how does our feeling work? Just as with checking out seeing, explore this. If you put your hand on something, then close your eyes and ask if there is a hand or a you or such doing the feeling and if there is a thing that is felt (like a table), or just the feeling/sensations?

The other inquiry:
Take a moment to sit down and close your eyes and listen to the sounds that are going on in what is conventionally called outside of me. Then bring up a sound as thought. Now move your attention between these two points, and see if attention ever passes a point between an inside or an outside. Does attention ever leave the space called inside, and comes into an outside space? Or perhaps it is all the same space/field/awareness/life? One 'field' of experience, undivided, without in or outside, but a whole? Existing out of separate parts, such as hearing, seeing, thinking, or are these also just labels, only pointing to different 'colorings' of the same awareness/life?

Much love,
Floris

Hi Floris,

Seems like you already have a lot of clarity around this, i.e. having seen through the assumptions of what was thought to be there.

Initially, there was strong resistance against ‘I doesn’t exist’. Your questions especially the last ones stripped off the ideas and believes about the existence of ‘I’ piece by piece.

First question, is there a change now compared to before the start of our conversation?

Yes, Floris there is a change. No more question or doubt around the non-existence of ‘I’, ‘mind’, ‘me’. Since last Q/A, Some sort of understanding is taking place. Yesterday, there were fleeting moments of spontaneous joy and laughing when I looked at this body moving, working, breathing where wonderfully there was no ‘I’. Today there were persistent thoughts playing around suggesting ‘you are not clear enough, you still get lost in thinking.’ By looking at them without getting involved in their message, there was clarity: no ‘I’, no ‘doer’, no ‘thinker’.

And these thoughts and ideas, could you say they come from somewhere, or that 'you' are responsible for them? Anything found, it belongs to?

If you asked me this question a few days ago, I would say yes ‘I am responsible and thoughts come from my mind’. But now, these thoughts and ideas seem to appear from nowhere. They just come, may linger for a while, when they are not believed or identified with they disappear. There is nothing/no one producing or attracting them.

First, how does our feeling work? Just as with checking out seeing, explore this. If you put your hand on something, then close your eyes and ask if there is a hand or a you or such doing the feeling and if there is a thing that is felt (like a table), or just the feeling/sensations?

There is a hand, a table, touching, sensation, and perception of the hand, table, and sensation. But no one is doing it.

The other inquiry:
Take a moment to sit down and close your eyes and listen to the sounds that are going on in what is conventionally called outside of me. Then bring up a sound as thought. Now move your attention between these two points, and see if attention ever passes a point between an inside or an outside. Does attention ever leave the space called inside, and comes into an outside space?

There doesn’t seem to be attention intermediating between inside/knowing and outside/the known. No borderline between inside or outside. A sound rises just like a thought which appears; it is perceived.

Or perhaps it is all the same space/field/awareness/life? One 'field' of experience, undivided, without in or outside, but a whole?

I am not sure if they (i.e. sound, hearing, perception) are the same experiences; they look different.

Existing out of separate parts, such as hearing, seeing, thinking, or are these also just labels, only pointing to different 'colorings' of the same awareness/life?

They are various functions carrying distinct labels on one level however looking deeper it could be just Life happening.
Many thanks
Far