The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no entity behind the eyes, or in this body. There is no personal entity that relates to a world. There is no entity or world. Nothing is separate from anything else.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see the truth for myself to finally stop the seeking game. Feel like I can’t do this on my own as the thoughts interfere. Need a guide to point me to the truth so that I am not using beliefs to see the truth but I will know the truth as the truth. Truth is one alone

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be guided to the truth of what I am.
To see for myself what I am, and what is my relationship the the “world” . To not be tricked my thoughts into believing there is someone here when there isn’t.
To live free

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Had an epiphany many years ago where I could see no separation. This lead me to this never ending search to reach that again.. knowing now that there is nothing to reach or state to attain .. feeling stuck for this same reason

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien

Hi VIvien,

Thank you for accepting to guide me. I am truly greateful and you can expect my deepest commitment to this exploration.

How will Life change?

Life will continue as usual, but suffering will not be there. Life will not change and I will not get everything I want, but when I discover that there is no one here that can suffer or be upset for not getting what it wants then this is what I mean by the end of suffering. Seeking is suffering for me - I hope is will stop.
Correct me if I am wrong - if I am not separate for anything, if I am everything that is, how can I want anything? Wanting is suffering for me also. By wanting I mean - wanting for things to be different than what they are. And why would I want that? Because I think that will make me happy if life could be just the way I wanted. But if I am life, if I am everything than the wanting will stop.

How will you change?

I don't think I will change. I think my relationship to the "world" and "others" will change but that's it.

What will be different?

Hard question. Nothing will be different but at the same time everything will be different. NOthing will change, life will continue as normal, as it is now, but my relationship to life will be different. A recognision will happen and this will change my relationship to life.

What is missing?

This question has hunted me all my life. WHat is missing? Something is missing but I don't know what it is. There is this constant insatisfaction with life.. I am always hoping for something. Hoping for that thing that is missing but not knowing what is actually missing. Constantly hearing this voice in my head that judges everything, that feels separate from everything that is never happy.. I am so tired..

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered

.
Yes will do. VIvien I might have some ideas and as you ask me questions I will be as honest as I can. It's not that I want to discuss ideas, NO it's no that, but is that I need to put them out there so I can see how fake they are so I can let go of them.. i will always be %100 honest because there is nothing I want more than seeing the truth.

With gratitude,

CLaudia

Hi Claudia,

Thank you for accepting to guide me. I am truly greateful and you can expect my deepest commitment to this exploration.

You are welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Life will continue as usual, but suffering will not be there. Life will not change and I will not get everything I want, but when I discover that there is no one here that can suffer or be upset for not getting what it wants then this is what I mean by the end of suffering.

I’m going to bring some bad news. Are you ready?

There is ALREADY no self, it has never been, and yet there is suffering.
So just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that suffering or being upset will automatically stop. These are not just the result of believing in the self, but also as the result of a life-long conditionings and traumas.

Perception changes and with that some reactions may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key. LU only guides to the realisation of ‘no separate self’.
Seeking is suffering for me - I hope is will stop.

Seeking for the truth will stop, yes. But suffering? Probably not. At least not at the beginning. Seeing through the self is just the BEGINNING, just the FIRST STEP, and not the end. Lots and lots of further looking is needed to slowly, gradually dissolve the root of those conditionings.

Personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

Correct me if I am wrong - if I am not separate for anything, if I am everything that is, how can I want anything?

There is a BIG misunderstanding here.

There is a belief in your questions, that ‘I am’ and this ‘I’ is not separate from anything. That ‘I am everything’.
But this cannot be further from the truth.

There is no YOU.
There is no ‘I’ in any shape or form, that could be not separate from anything else.
No-separation doesn’t mean that ‘I am not separate from anything else’, that ‘I am everything’.
Not at all.

No separation means that there is NO I AT ALL, there is only ‘everything else’.
Hence no separation.
Since the ‘separate I’ is just imagined.
It’s not there. It’s never been there.

But if I am life, if I am everything than the wanting will stop.

But you are NOT life. You are not everything.
Life is, everything is, but ‘YOU’ AREN’T.
There is just life, without you.
There is NO I AM.
Can you see the difference?

You are expecting to have a better, more pleasant experience for yourself.
But this won’t happen.
Since there is NO YOU which experience is happening TO.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

A recognision will happen and this will change my relationship to life.

You have no relationship to life.
Since there is NO you that could have a relationship to anything.
There is just life, without you.

Constantly hearing this voice in my head that judges everything, that feels separate from everything that is never happy.. I am so tired..

But seeing through the self is not about being happy.
It’s about seeing that happiness or unhappiness doesn’t happen to anyone.
These are just emotions/sensations freely floating, without being attached to, or hooked to a self/me.

VIvien I might have some ideas and as you ask me questions I will be as honest as I can. It's not that I want to discuss ideas, NO it's no that, but is that I need to put them out there so I can see how fake they are so I can let go of them.. i will always be %100 honest because there is nothing I want more than seeing the truth.

All right. I just pointed out some major beliefs.

To be guided to the truth of what I am.

There is NO truth of what I am.
The truth is, that I AM NOT.

To see for myself what I am,

So you cannot see for yourself what you are. It’s impossible.
Since the ‘you’ is NOT there. It’s never been there.
You/I has always been just an imagination, fantasy, fabrication. But NEVER reality.
And this is what can be seen with this investigation.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

No separation means that there is NO I AT ALL, there is only ‘everything else’.
Hence no separation.
Since the ‘separate I’ is just imagined.
It’s not there. It’s never been there.

So far not too many sensations in the body. Nothing that I can report at least.

Me: But if I am life, if I am everything than the wanting will stop.

Vi: But you are NOT life. You are not everything.

I get it that I am not this body. I can see this body. This body is made of colours and sensations. I am not the sounds I am hearing, and I am not the colours I am seing.. STILL.. I am aware of it. For a sound to appear, I have to know it so I can say there is sound. I am not saying that I am separate from the sound, but what is the substnace of the sound? or anything else, colours, smells, sensations, thoughts.. I thought I was that.. whatever appears.. the knowing of it all..

Life is, everything is, but ‘YOU’ AREN’T.
There is just life, without you.

Ok I am not here as an individual, but 'something' is here that knows no? If this 'something' is not here 'who' is touching the keyboard? who or what is feeling the sensations at this very moment?

There is NO I AM.
Can you see the difference?

I don't know if I can see it. I am not saying I am a person, or even a separate entity. But something is aware isnt it? Am I not that? this moment?

There is just life, without you.

what 'you' are we talking about here? When you say there is 'just life'.. without me? How can I say there is life, or this moment if I am not present? not as an individual but as the knowing factor?

Constantly hearing this voice in my head that judges everything, that feels separate from everything that is never happy.. I am so tired..

But seeing through the self is not about being happy.

Yes I am ok with this.

All right. I just pointed out some major beliefs.

Thank you so much for that. I am ready to challenge all of these beliefs. Actually I don't want to believe in anything.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

yes, absolutely.

Before starting, please read my above comments a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

I read everything several times. There is no resistance at all to any of it. Just a little confusion. I understand that language is crucial here so I will try to be as clear as possible.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

yes very much so! But before Vivien if you don't mind I would like to be clear on this very post. There is a lot I am uncertain about and I cannot wait to hear from you after you read my responses. I was very honest in my answers here, because I really want to get rid of false notions but I need to be clear on them first with your help before moving forward.

Thank you so much!

with gratitude,

Claudia

Hi Claudia,

Ok I am not here as an individual, but 'something' is here that knows no? If this 'something' is not here 'who' is touching the keyboard? who or what is feeling the sensations at this very moment?

What you are talking about IS the separate self.

The knower, the toucher, the feeler IS THE SEPARATE SELF.

There is NO knower.
There is NO toucher.
There is NO feeler.

Touching, knowing, feeling happens, but there is NOTHING, NO ONE that is doing it.

I don't know if I can see it. I am not saying I am a person, or even a separate entity. But something is aware isnt it? Am I not that? this moment?

No. You are not awareness.

Since there is neither you, nor an independent stand-alone awareness.

This SEEMING knower/aware-ER is the BASIS of the illusion of the separate self.

Look at what happened here. I wrote you that there is no you/self in any shape or form, but this information couldn’t get in fully, since it’s in contrast of your belief that there must be something that is aware, that knows and feels.

So you read my replies through the filter of this belief. And you misinterpreted my comments to adjust to your beliefs. So watch out.. since this probably will happen again and again.

what 'you' are we talking about here? When you say there is 'just life'.. without me? How can I say there is life, or this moment if I am not present? not as an individual but as the knowing factor?

You are not the knowing factor either. There is no you/self AT ALL. LITERALLY.

And there is no independent ‘knowing factor’ either. We will look at this later.

Please go back to my previous post, and read it again a few times with this new understanding, that you are not even the knower. That literally there is nothing that can be said that ‘this is me’.

Let me know what you find when you re-read my previous post.

Is there any emotion or reaction coming up?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

The knower, the toucher, the feeler IS THE SEPARATE SELF.

is it because it is too immediate? there is no room for 'something' to observe or be aware of anything? this being aware is already an act.. life is too immediate.. can't even point to anything.. anything what?! hum.. this is interesting..

Thank you so much for pointing that out!!!

This SEEMING knower/aware-ER is the BASIS of the illusion of the separate self.

ahh ok I see... Wow!!!

So you read my replies through the filter of this belief. And you misinterpreted my comments to adjust to your beliefs. So watch out.. since this probably will happen again and again.

yes i see it. I am not doing it on purpose... thank you for saying this.

And there is no independent ‘knowing factor’ either. We will look at this later.

Please go back to my previous post, and read it again a few times with this new understanding, that you are not even the knower. That literally there is nothing that can be said that ‘this is me’.

yes.

Let me know what you find when you re-read my previous post.

Is there any emotion or reaction coming up?

I feel peace.. I am calm and excited at the same time.. at first I was very confused.. then I pondered on what you said, and something clicked. A thought came up ' let go. Trust the process.Your views are not correct otherwise by now you wouldve figured it out.'

I see what you mean (i think). Everytime I make it into something( like I thought I was awareness) I am falling for the illusion.. Life is... sorry for using the word 'I' so many times but I am trying to explain something.. for the purpose of communicating it..


Love
Claudia

Hi Claudia,

sorry for using the word 'I' so many times but I am trying to explain something.. for the purpose of communicating it..

You don’t have to stop using the word ‘I’. Actually, I would like to ask you not to do that. Your written words are the only things I can work with, and I write my comments and questions based on what you write. It could be misleading if you stop using the word ‘I’, while you are still believing it.

So, let’s start it! :)

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for facts of reality, but not knowledge of facts of reality. So, you'll need to put the teachings aside because they so far haven't worked.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

This investigation will be very-very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

What the ‘I’ is for you?

What is the experience of being you?

And remember, like a child…

Vivien

Hi Claudia,

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will try my best.

What the ‘I’ is for you?

as a child I could see colours. I was then taught by parents and society, that to every colour there is a label. Certain colours mixed with other colours, and adding certain texture, weight, shape.. I then started to attribute a name to these shapes.. I could then tell 'that is an apple', 'that is a chair' 'this is my body','my body is different FROM the chair, and the chair is different from the apple' etc etc etc This became easy to communicate then, because everything had a name.
With this apparent distinction, I separated me, the 'I' from the things I see.. This 'i' is also very personal to me.. it is my insctrument of acting in the world. When someone calls my name, i respond.. This is what the I is for me. I am me, Claudia. you are you Vivien. Two different I's.

What is the experience of being you?

I am blank for a moment..!Don't know if I understand the question..
The experience of being me is what I am experiencing at the moment..I feel things, smell things, ear things.. have thoughts appearing.. at this very moment the experience of being me is ' typing on the key board, responding to Vivien'. I take the perspective of this person (me), I am not taking the perspective of Vivien.. I am me, you are you.

Cannot wait to hear from you!

Love
Claudia

Hi Claudia,

as a child I could see colours. I was then taught by parents and society, that to every colour there is a label. Certain colours mixed with other colours, and adding certain texture, weight, shape.. I then started to attribute a name to these shapes.. I could then tell 'that is an apple', 'that is a chair' 'this is my body','my body is different FROM the chair, and the chair is different from the apple' etc etc etc This became easy to communicate then, because everything had a name.
With this apparent distinction, I separated me, the 'I' from the things I see..

This is a learned knowledge, not your experience. I would like to ask you to put aside ALL learned knowledge, and only reply from your own experience.

This 'i' is also very personal to me.. it is my insctrument of acting in the world. When someone calls my name, i respond.. This is what the I is for me. I am me, Claudia. you are you Vivien. Two different I's.

Yes, this how you perceive yourself.

So, in order to be successful with this looking, first you have to be super clear on what is ‘real’ and what is just a fantasy (thoughts).

So this is what we are going to investigate first.

Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?

If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien

Hi VIvien,

So, in order to be successful with this looking, first you have to be super clear on what is ‘real’ and what is just a fantasy (thoughts).

Yes please. I have some doubts already that I would like to clarify with you.

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

The cup in my hand is real (I am actually holding a cup) because I am looking at IT, I am feeling it’s heaviness in my hand, the coldness of the cup when I grab it. I can see it and feel it,also a thought comes up saying “cup”.

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?

A ghost is not real because I have never seen it, smelled it, touched it. I. I can only think of it.

VIvien I have something in my mind that I would like to clarify if you don’t mind because I think it might be an hindrance in this investigation for me..
when you say “first you have to be super clear on what is ‘real’ and what is just a fantasy (thought)”
In this very example, ok the cup is real because I can see it, feel it, touch it. The ghost is not real because I have never seen it, touched it, smelled it. BUT, when you say to be clear on what is real and just fantasy I don’t get it when it come to thoughts. How can a thought me fantasy if it points to something real? How can a thought be fantasy if it’s pointing to a cup that I know for example exists? You see the ghost I get it, because I can think of ghost and I know they are not real,but I can think of cups, cars, dogs and cats because I know they are real. So in this sense thought is not fantasy is it? Do you know what I am getting at??

What I need to know, and understand from you so that when you ask me something I be will be clear on what you want from me is:
Am I to regard all thoughts as fantasy even tho they point to something real that I have seen, felt and touched ? Or do I Regards all thoughts as fantasy even if they point to cups or ghosts?

all my love,

Claudia

Hi Claudia,

BUT, when you say to be clear on what is real and just fantasy I don’t get it when it come to thoughts. How can a thought me fantasy if it points to something real? How can a thought be fantasy if it’s pointing to a cup that I know for example exists?

What you are asking here is EXACTLY what I am pointing at. It’s essential to see that thoughts are not real, not experienced.

The words ‘fantasy’, ‘imagination’ and ‘not real’ are interchangeable in this context.

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between experience/reality and thoughts/fantasy.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine form, size, weight, temperature, keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?

We are making the distinction between EXPERIENCE and THOUGHTS.
EXPERIENCE is real, it’s happening. Experience is what can be known through the five senses (by seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling).
THOUGHT on the other hand, is NOT experience. Whatever a thought is ABOUT, it’s not real. It’s just imagined.

How can a thought me fantasy if it points to something real?

Let’s look at this.

There is a real object, real ‘thing’, that is labelled by thoughts as ‘cup’.
This thing can be touched, smelled, seen, and even tasted.
This ‘thing’ (called cup) is experienced.

But does the word label ‘cup’ experienced?
Can you touch the word/thought ‘cup’?
Can you drink from the word/thought ‘cup’?

If thoughts were real/experienced, then the word ‘sweet’ could be tasted and the thought ‘hot’ could be felt.
So can you taste the thought ‘sweet’?
Can you feel the warmth of the thought ‘hot’?

You see the ghost I get it, because I can think of ghost and I know they are not real,but I can think of cups, cars, dogs and cats because I know they are real. So in this sense thought is not fantasy is it? Do you know what I am getting at??

Some thought point to real things, like chair, cup or dog, and other thoughts doesn’t point to any real thing.

But nevertheless, thoughts are NEVER EVER experienced.
Regardless what they are pointing at.
Can you see this clearly?


Vivien

Hi VIvien,

Before anything let me thank you Viviven. I know we have only been in touch for a few days but I have experienced so many ha-ha moments already. I find your questions very pertinent and every time I doubt something you explain it so simply that things make sense.. I am so grateful - thank you!

It’s essential to see that thoughts are not real, not experienced.

Question here - a thought is experienced right? But the content it’s not right? A thought is real , it is experienced. Like you made the think of a spoon. I experienced that thought, but not the spoon. Am I ok here?

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine form, size, weight, temperature, keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

color=#0040FF]Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?

No. Only in thought.

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

I have opened my eyes, and looked. I could not see it, taste it, feel it..

What happened to the spoon?

Nothing happened. I realised I had a thought. A thought about a spoon. The spoon was never there.

Did it disappear or it never existed?[/color]

It never existed.

b]We are making the distinction between EXPERIENCE and THOUGHTS.[/b]
EXPERIENCE is real, it’s happening. Experience is what can be known through the five senses (by seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling).
THOUGHT on the other hand, is NOT experience. Whatever a thought is ABOUT, it’s not real. It’s just imagined.

Not sure here.. a thought is not experience? How so? You asked me to experience a thought when you said to think about the spoon. I am confused a little bit. Thoughts are experienced?

How can a thought me fantasy if it points to something real?

Let’s look at this.

There is a real object, real ‘thing’, that is labelled by thoughts as ‘cup’.
This thing can be touched, smelled, seen, and even tasted.
This ‘thing’ (called cup) is experienced.

color=#0040FF]But does the word label ‘cup’ experienced?

No, the word label cup is not experienced.

Can you touch the word/thought ‘cup’?

No :)

Can you drink from the word/thought ‘cup’?[/color]

No :)

If thoughts were real/experienced, then the word ‘sweet’ could be tasted and the thought ‘hot’ could be felt.

[

color=#0040FF]So can you taste the thought ‘sweet’?

No

Can you feel the warmth of the thought ‘hot’?[/color]

No

But nevertheless, thoughts are NEVER EVER experienced.
Regardless what they are pointing at.
Can you see this clearly?

Well I think so. I think you are saying that the thought is experienced but the content of the thought is never experienced. Is this right?????

VIvien using the five senses I can proof the existence of the cup. I see it, feel it, can hear it and even taste it.. but, when I look at it there is an automatic thought that says “cup”. So is thought part of experience as well as the five senses? Or how does thought apply here?!?

All my love and gratitude,
Claudia

Hi Claudia,

Before anything let me thank you Viviven. I know we have only been in touch for a few days but I have experienced so many ha-ha moments already. I find your questions very pertinent and every time I doubt something you explain it so simply that things make sense.. I am so grateful - thank you!

You are very welcome :)

Question here - a thought is experienced right? But the content it’s not right? A thought is real , it is experienced. Like you made the think of a spoon. I experienced that thought, but not the spoon. Am I ok here?

Yes. I can see from your comments that you’ve read my previous threads with other clients.

Since then I made some changes to my guiding style, and what you pointed out is one of them. It is easy to get it intellectually that a thought is experienced as a phenomenon, but not its content. But often, it’s just an intellectual understanding and not an experiential one. Therefore, I’m trying to make this even simpler.

So yet, the thought as such is experienced as a thought, but it doesn’t matter.
Since the content, (what is the seemingly important part of it) just imagined.
So is short, what is being experienced is just a FANTASY/IMAGINATION.

Not sure here.. a thought is not experience? How so? You asked me to experience a thought when you said to think about the spoon. I am confused a little bit. Thoughts are experienced?

You see, there is already a confusion because of the above.

Was there a real spoon or not?
Was it a real spoon or just an imagined one?
So was there an experience of a spoon or not?

Yes, there was an imagination going on, and the imagination happened.

But if the imagination could contain experience, then it would mean that the weight of the spoon can be felt, it can be put into the mouth to taste it, and the coolness of the metal could be felt too.
But does this imagination contained any experience?

We are making the distinction between EXPERIENCE and THOUGHTS.
EXPERIENCE is real, it’s happening. Experience is what can be known through the five senses (by seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling).
THOUGHT on the other hand, is NOT experience (since it’s just an imagination). Whatever a thought is ABOUT, it’s not real. It’s just imagined.
Is this clear now?

V: But nevertheless, thoughts are NEVER EVER experienced.
Regardless what they are pointing at.
Can you see this clearly?

C: Well I think so. I think you are saying that the thought is experienced but the content of the thought is never experienced. Is this right?????

Yes, but please put aside that thoughts as phenomenon are experienced.
Since it’s irrelevant, and it can be the source of confusion.

Thought = imagination / fantasy
Can you see this clearly?

Can you see clearly that there is a big difference between EXPERIENCE and THOUGHTS (fiction)?

Can you see clearly that experience is real, and thought is just a fantasy/imagination?

Please, don’t just think through this, but really LOOK. Repeat the spoon exercise again to help with this.

VIvien using the five senses I can proof the existence of the cup. I see it, feel it, can hear it and even taste it.. but, when I look at it there is an automatic thought that says “cup”. So is thought part of experience as well as the five senses? Or how does thought apply here?!?

This is the path where we don’t want to get to. Since it’s just an intellectual reasoning. You are trying to understand this intellectually, which won’t help you, quite the contrary.

This whole process is simple. We have to use a langue that a child can understand too. If a child cannot understand it, it just means that it’s all intellectual speculation.

Vivien

Hi VIvien,

Yes. I can see from your comments that you’ve read my previous threads with other clients.

I did a few weeks ago before getting in touch. But I haven’t been since we started. Hope that’s ok.

color=#0040FF]Was there a real spoon or not?

No. That’s clear.

Was it a real spoon or just an imagined one?

It was just imagined. That’s clear.

So was there an experience of a spoon or not?[/color]

No. It was the experience of thought only.

color=#0040FF]But does this imagination contained any experience?[/color]

No. That’s clear.

color=#0040FF]Is this clear now?[/color]

Yes.. thank you!!

quote]V: But nevertheless, thoughts are NEVER EVER experienced.
Regardless what they are pointing at.
Can you see this clearly?

Yes. Clear, thank you

Can you see clearly that there is a big difference between EXPERIENCE and THOUGHTS (fiction)?

Yes, I can. Thank you

Can you see clearly that experience is real, and thought is just a fantasy/imagination?[/color]

Yes!

Please, don’t just think through this, but really LOOK. Repeat the spoon exercise again to help with this.

Yes will do.

This whole process is simple. We have to use a langue that a child can understand too. If a child cannot understand it, it just means that it’s all intellectual speculation.

Yes sure ok. Simple.

Love,
Claudia