The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I feel like I've experienced the truth of no inherent "self" many times (and, each time, I've laughed afterward: omg, it's so simple! how did i not see it before?) But, the "self" always seems to creep back in. Either there is something I'm still not getting/seeing or maybe i just have a warped perspective of what this *should* look like?

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for guidance -- from Kay specifically-- on how to perhaps look at this differently. Or maybe the more honest answer is: I have no idea what I'm looking for at LU, but here I am anyway. It just feels right to be here. I feel like there is something that needs to be completed that hasn't yet been completed.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really have any expectations, which is the honest truth, so I'm not sure what else to say. I look forward to diving deeper with Kay to see into those places I'm perhaps not quite seeing completely clearly yet. I need further clarification.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I feel like maybe it's more accurate to say what *isn't* my experience in terms of practices, seeking and inquiry. :) When I was 21 I had a mystical experience the first time I sat down to meditate. That was the carrot that lured me onto the spiritual path. I spent the next 8 years or so dedicated to "personal growth," "thinking positive," and living my life acc. to synchronicity/intuition (and also, damn it, why can't I get back to that same amazing experience of bliss? What's wrong with me? Am I not meditating right? LOL)
Then, when I was 29, my mom died, followed by a whole train of others. Everything broke down, I was tossed into the abyss. Who am I, dark night of the soul, etc., all that stuff. Every aspect of my identity shattered. After 2 years studying everything I could get my hands on (including a masters degree in religious studies), I realized - holy shit! I don't exist! I was pretty blissed out on and off for a couple months, completely in awe of my dumb luck at having discovered this. I thought for sure I'd stay in that state forever. But then there was aftermath, including a divorce and being financially on my own... and I felt miserable again, not at all liberated, like none of that ever happened... Was it just an intellectual realization I had? A number of years later, I did Ayahuasca... came back to the same realization that I didn't exist, laughed my ass off again, but again the sense that the "I" reappeared. Went to Gangaji last year, laughed my ass off again.
You get the idea. So it's hard to say where I am with all of this (literally). It seems my animal brain is reactive in ways I think it shouldn't be, after all these experiences. That said, I suppose there is definitely more peace overall, the mind quieter, and I can recover a lot more quickly. I can watch my thoughts and know intellectually that there is no "I" there to be thinking them -- but it's like there is something left for me to still see more clearly.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi Raven,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

I feel like I've experienced the truth of no inherent "self" many times (and, each time, I've laughed afterward: omg, it's so simple! how did i not see it before?) But, the "self" always seems to creep back in. Either there is something I'm still not getting/seeing or maybe i just have a warped perspective of what this *should* look like?

My style of guiding is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self, and by so doing you get to see how it seemingly gets created over and over. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration to your daily life...not just sitting and pondering what we are exploring, but actually applying the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to yet again appear...that it actually cannot be found. It is this continual seeing that is the key whereby eventually it doesn't matter that the idea of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept. This exploration is not about getting rid of the idea or getting rid of something that is illusory to begin with. The idea of there being a separate self has always appeared...and yet there NEVER EVER has been a separate self as we believe it to be.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Hi, Kay - awesome, I read all the links.

Thanks,
R

Hi R,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer; and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to accomplish; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

Although you wrote in your introductory post that you really don't have any expectations, let's dig a little deeper around this, so that we both become aware of any expectations you may have, be they subtle, about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like, and what you want/hope will change or not change etc.

Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

How will life change?

I'm staring at this question and want to laugh for some reason. Life has always been and always will be as it is, what it is. It can't be changed. If it's helpful for me to share how I'm defining "life" = the flow, movement of energy. But words fall short, of course, making all of this near impossible to write about. So easy to fall into a semantics battle of some kind. If I changed this question to: how will your personal life change, it's technically the same answer because there is no personal life, there is no person there in charge of some kind of external life “out there”. I can take X action that may, perhaps, have Y consequence in terms of changing how the illusion of my life looks/appears, but life itself can’t be changed... but more on this below since that seems more like what the 2nd question is all about.

How will you change?

The natural response to this question is to say: oh, well, how can "I" change if there's no "I" to change? But that feels like I'm just giving some kind of "correct" answer, so I'll expand. I started on the spiritual path, like many, with some kind of sense that there was an end goal, mainly because I didn't know any better at the time. I didn't know that the mind co-opts even seemingly pure "spiritual" intentions and uses them as a way to further reinforce a sense of self, which perpetuates suffering by putting you on a never-ending treadmill loop. For years, I fell into the trap of thinking maybe this modality, this teacher, or this trippy plant meditation will finally get me there. Get me where? Where's "there"? Even if I didn't want to admit it and/or at some point maybe pretended that I'd given up the search, of course I was after it, call it what you will: Enlightenment, Abiding awakening, Gateless Gate, whatever. I didn't know what a trap all of this was! Here you think you are "progressing" towards something, some kind of end goal, when not only is there nothing to progress towards, there's no one to progress. How can you make a goal out of what's always here? Even though I had many realizations that I was what I was looking for, that it's all right here, etc, I still ended up picking back up the search. Why? Resistance? Fear of letting go? Hard to say. I think the mind is designed to take us into the past/future to reinforce a sense of self. I like how Eckhardt Tolle describes the mind like a dog always looking for something to pee on. It will create problems that don’t exist, if it needs to. For this reason, I was resistant even signing up for this site because I know all too well my old tendency, the mind's trick, to latch onto the fancy new toy, that same trap of thinking: oh maybe this is it. This is what? It's already all right here.

What will be different?

Again, my instinct is to say: nothing. In my initial post I said: "I feel like something just feels like it hasn't been completed"... and since writing that I have thought: but is that true? What needs completing? It makes no sense, really, because there is nothing there to complete. Never was. It's almost as if, for some of us, like moi, the purpose of the search is to completely exhaust you on every level to where you finally just give in. After Gangaji last year, I boycotted any/all things remotely "spiritual." I was so over it all. My god. no. more. f*ng. retreats. It was like I'd rather blow my brains out than look at another spiritual book or listen to another podcast. Now I think it's all so funny. For the past few weeks I have felt much more "surrendered.” The fear and anxiety hasn’t been there, the worry. But I'm also very aware of the fact that I'm, more or less, on vacation right now in a beautiful quiet place. What happens next week or the week after when work heats up or something else super challenging happens etc.? Will I be able to act from this same level of surrender? But then isn’t this the same trick of the mind... again, taking us into the future, thinking we need worry about how some "future self" will handle whatever happens in the future? Now, more specifically, getting myself out of the clouds so to speak, from a practical standpoint, do I like the idea of experimenting with new ways of looking at things while I'm in certain challenging situations? Yes. Do I like the idea of further deconstructing this idea of a separate self, to the extent I’m able to do so? Yes. But, at this moment, right now, if nothing changes about how this person calls Raven shows up in the world, I'm okay with that. Because I'm just tired of fighting/searching and trying to find or create something that I know is already here. Just so done with it.

What is missing?

Nothing.

Funny story: by mistake I deleted this whole entire thing but the question "what is missing"? HAHA. I had saved most of it in a Word document, so it wasn't a huge travesty, but I just thought it was funny seeing that one question there with a blank page. Yep.

Hey Raven,

Thank you for your in-depth responses. The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like, and how you think life should then look like, and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way and can blind side the fact that the realisation has happened, via doubting thoughts and unclear seeing.

There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this guiding. Reactions of anger, fear, resistance, resentment, disappointment and frustration can arise when desired outcomes to expectations are not met. When they do appear, no matter the circumstance, please let me know so that we can look at them together.

How will life change?

I can take X action that may, perhaps, have Y consequence in terms of changing how the illusion of my life looks/appears, but life itself can’t be changed... but more on this below since that seems more like what the 2nd question is all about.

Choice is a lovely concept that seemingly appears as something a self does; however, there would have to be a ‘you’ who can choose between which actions to take or not take. We will look at the idea of choice later.

How will you change?

I was resistant even signing up for this site because I know all too well my old tendency, the mind's trick, to latch onto the fancy new toy, that same trap of thinking: oh maybe this is it. This is what? It's already all right here.

And what is “already all right here”, can you please tell me more about this?

What you say would also make perfect sense if there were actually a ‘mind’ to do this. And no…this isn’t about semantics. There is no ‘mind’ beyond thought, and there is no ‘me’ who is resisting, although it may SEEM so. The words ‘seem/seeming/seemingly’ and ‘apparent/apparently’ all point to the same thing - thought stories only, and not to actual experience ie not to what actually IS.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I don't really have any expectations, which is the honest truth, so I'm not sure what else to say. I look forward to diving deeper with Kay to see into those places I'm perhaps not quite seeing completely clearly yet. I need further clarification.

There is an expectation which you voiced at the beginning of your introductory post.

But, the "self" always seems to creep back in. Either there is something I'm still not getting/seeing or maybe i just have a warped perspective of what this *should* look like?

What should happen instead of the “self” creeping back in? How should life look and feel without the self?

What is missing?

Nothing.

Yes….nothing is missing, never has been and is impossible for anything to be missing: however you mentioned that you have experienced the truth of no inherent "self" many times, but, the "self" always seems to creep back in. So what is missing? What happens when the seeming self seems to creep back in? What goes or is missing?


Kay

Hi, Kay - early good morning to you!

Choice is a lovely concept that seemingly appears as something a self does; however, there would have to be a ‘you’ who can choose between which actions to take or not take. We will look at the idea of choice later.

Okay, right. I 100% see that. But perhaps I see it only as an intellectual seeing.

And what is “already all right here”, can you please tell me more about this?

Good question. I guess I would say what's here is: "What Is." But if you then asked me what is "What Is," I would probably have to say: I have no idea!

What should happen instead of the “self” creeping back in? How should life look and feel without the self?

Ah, right! Perhaps more accurate to say the identification with a self creeps back in, more so than some kind of actual "self" creeping back in. It's not so much that I thought my self disappeared and then- oh crap, there it is again- so much as getting just as hooked by identification with the concept of a self as I did before the realizations. Ultimately, I think life without the self would look/feel exactly how it does now because there is no self, never was. As for how life might look without identification with the illusion of a separate self, maybe it wouldn't look or feel any different, but I really don't know. I tell a story sometimes that if I unhooked from identification with the self concept, it might be easier to unhook from thoughts/emotions overall and just be less attached to them. But maybe that's just another one of those stories I need to drop. Maybe you are just as attached, I really don't know.

Yes….nothing is missing, never has been and is impossible for anything to be missing: however you mentioned that you have experienced the truth of no inherent "self" many times, but, the "self" always seems to creep back in. So what is missing? What happens when the seeming self seems to creep back in? What goes or is missing?

Nothing is or goes missing. The identification with a sense of self, identification with the false construct seems to then lead to identification with the thoughts, emotions, body, etc. But what is it that's identifying with these things? There is no self thinking those thoughts, there is just thinking. There is no self feeling those emotions, there is just feeling. There is no self in a body, there is just a body. But it seems as though there is identification.

What you say would also make perfect sense if there were actually a ‘mind’ to do this. And no…this isn’t about semantics. There is no ‘mind’ beyond thought, and there is no ‘me’ who is resisting, although it may SEEM so. The words ‘seem/seeming/seemingly’ and ‘apparent/apparently’ all point to the same thing - thought stories only, and not to actual experience ie not to what actually IS.

And so what is actual experience? What is that? If there is no experiencer, is there still experience?

Thanks so much, Kay - this was fun and very helpful. This false construct that I am really appreciates your help. :)

Hey R,

And what is “already all right here”, can you please tell me more about this?

Good question. I guess I would say what's here is: "What Is." But if you then asked me what is "What Is," I would probably have to say: I have no idea!

And “I have no idea” is a great attitude to have, as this suggests a curiosity, openness and willingness to LOOK to see what is! When you think you already know something, you are looking at it with concepts from the ‘past’. We will begin this exploration by becoming aware of actual experience (AE) how to LOOK with/at AE!

What should happen instead of the “self” creeping back in? How should life look and feel without the self?

Ah, right! Perhaps more accurate to say the identification with a self creeps back in, more so than some kind of actual "self" creeping back in. It's not so much that I thought my self disappeared and then- oh crap, there it is again- so much as getting just as hooked by identification with the concept of a self as I did before the realizations.

Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This is also happening in 'rea'l life. There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment.

Ultimately, I think life without the self would look/feel exactly how it does now because there is no self, never was.

Exactly :) Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes.

As for how life might look without identification with the illusion of a separate self, maybe it wouldn't look or feel any different, but I really don't know. I tell a story sometimes that if I unhooked from identification with the self concept, it might be easier to unhook from thoughts/emotions overall and just be less attached to them. But maybe that's just another one of those stories I need to drop. Maybe you are just as attached, I really don't know.

There cannot be an attachment to ‘your’ stories, or to the story about an “I” labelled Raven.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours

Yes….nothing is missing, never has been and is impossible for anything to be missing: however you mentioned that you have experienced the truth of no inherent "self" many times, but, the "self" always seems to creep back in. So what is missing? What happens when the seeming self seems to creep back in? What goes or is missing?

Nothing is or goes missing. The identification with a sense of self, identification with the false construct seems to then lead to identification with the thoughts, emotions, body, etc. But what is it that's identifying with these things? There is no self thinking those thoughts, there is just thinking. There is no self feeling those emotions, there is just feeling. There is no self in a body, there is just a body. But it seems as though there is identification.

Yes, exactly, and as we go through the deconstruction of the seeming separate self, you will see how it seems to be recreated!

What you say would also make perfect sense if there were actually a ‘mind’ to do this. And no…this isn’t about semantics. There is no ‘mind’ beyond thought, and there is no ‘me’ who is resisting, although it may SEEM so. The words ‘seem/seeming/seemingly’ and ‘apparent/apparently’ all point to the same thing - thought stories only, and not to actual experience ie not to what actually IS.
And so what is actual experience? What is that? If there is no experiencer, is there still experience?

Yes, of course, because there is no dividing line between experience/experiencer/experiencing…they are all one and the same thing = THIS/experience exactly as it is.

Okay...so let's get this party started!!
As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay

Hi, Kay -

Okay...so let's get this party started!!

Woo! Par-tay!

Question before getting to the AE/sound... you say:

there is no dividing line between experience/experiencer/experiencing…they are all one and the same thing = THIS/experience exactly as it is.

So then is it also true that there’s no dividing line between hearing/hearer, feeling/feeler, thinker/thinking? Or are we saying there is no hearer/feeler/thinker?

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

I'm guessing you are about to hit the hay or already deeply offline, whichever the case may be, so you may not get this until your morning. In which case, I'm wondering if maybe it's best for me to come up with a sound later in my day when you are up again (whenever you get back online maybe?) so that I can come up with sound(s) that are sure to be there for part2. For example, right now I'm hearing lovely birds, but I don't know if those same sounds will be there in 8-9 hours or so. They probably won't be. Otherwise, I could just say "fan" or "running water" and turn one of those on later in the day for part 2 as I'm sure those are sounds that will be available cuz "I" can manufacture them to be so. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Gasp! I never overthink anything, this is a new experience for me. :) haha

Hello R,

there is no dividing line between experience/experiencer/experiencing…they are all one and the same thing = THIS/experience exactly as it is.

So then is it also true that there’s no dividing line between hearing/hearer, feeling/feeler, thinker/thinking? Or are we saying there is no hearer/feeler/thinker?

You need to look at your own question carefully. Since there is no dividing line between, feeling/feeler, say, then what does that point to exactly? Where does feeling (ie sensation) end and the knowing of it begin? But, this will become clearer later.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

I'm guessing you are about to hit the hay or already deeply offline, whichever the case may be, so you may not get this until your morning. In which case, I'm wondering if maybe it's best for me to come up with a sound later in my day when you are up again (whenever you get back online maybe?) so that I can come up with sound(s) that are sure to be there for part2. For example, right now I'm hearing lovely birds, but I don't know if those same sounds will be there in 8-9 hours or so. They probably won't be. Otherwise, I could just say "fan" or "running water" and turn one of those on later in the day for part 2 as I'm sure those are sounds that will be available cuz "I" can manufacture them to be so. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Gasp! I never overthink anything, this is a new experience for me. :) haha

You are overthinking it. Find a sound within the room then, and tell me what that one sound is.

Kay

You are overthinking it. Find a sound within the room then, and tell me what that one sound is.

I can hear birds, one in particular, and crickets right now.

I mean, the birds and crickets aren't in the room, but I figure they will be there for a little while... :)

Hello R,

You are overthinking it. Find a sound within the room then, and tell me what that one sound is.

I can hear birds, one in particular, and crickets right now.

Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is that of birds? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is birds chirping?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "birds", or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?

Kay

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is that of birds? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is birds chirping?

FYI, I switched to crickets cuz the bird left. :) It is known that the sound heard is called "crickets" because I was taught to associate this particular sound with this particular label/story "crickets"

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "crickets", or is it thought that suggests it?

It is thought, past conditioning. If an alien arrived on earth who had never before heard this sound, or been taught the name of it, she wouldn't call it crickets. (But she might come up with a new name/thought/story for it!)

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?

It is AE of sound, but the minute I try to speak of the actual experience to describe it, using words/thought, I create a story around something that can't actually be described.

the minute I try to speak of the actual experience to describe it, using words/thought, I create a story around something that can't actually be described.

Or, correction, “I” don’t create the story cuz there’s no I