The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That we have been conditioned to identify strongly with our story. But there is no story, no writer and no observer. Life is .

What are you looking for at LU?
Want to move from just understanding things conceptually to liberate truly. Looking for people who have liberated from the unreal and are abiding by the real. Hoping that I would also be able to feel completely free and abide in the bliss

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointing me to help so that I can look truly instead of just understand liberation. Helping me to point on what I have been missing and how I can abide in my true nature. I am in search of the ultimate truth but still unable to reach that stage

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read several books and heard several people on teachings of Advaita. I don't follow any yogic practice. I like to be silent and just observe

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

Hi Tushar

Sorry for the wait, but I would be happy to help out, if you like. Awakening to your true nature, as you wrote it, is outside the scope of this website. But I hope with our conversations that you will leave with some more peace of mind, and have more clarity.

There are a few ground rules though:
- It can be useful to post regularly, without too many gaps, for instance every day. This would help to get you in a momentum, but it's up to you of course.
- Try being as honest as possible
- We'll be investigating our experience primarily, please read: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/reso ... xperience/
- Please learn to use the quote function; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- You can subscribe to this thread, so you'll receive a message when I reply. See the button next to 'Post Reply'

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we can begin.

Floris

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we can begin.

Thanks for your reply Floris. Noted all the ground rules. Let us begin!

Thanks for your reply Floris. Noted all the ground rules. Let us begin!

Good, let's begin then. I'll call you Tushar, if you want it otherwise then tell me :-)

When you have some quite time by yourself, please sit and close your eyes. Then look for the person/Tushar/I. Can you find this entity anywhere? Can something be found or identified where these labels (I/person/entity) can be put on?
What are your thoughts on your findings?

Love,
Floris

Then look for the person/Tushar/I. Can you find this entity anywhere?

There is a long story associated with this person, whether real or imagined, called Tushar. There is an experience which is happening for so many years, to a constant experiencer.

Can something be found or identified where these labels (I/person/entity) can be put on?

There is a body through which this experience is experienced. When I specifically look for who Tushar is I can find nothing apart from the story, experience, body and the relationship with others.
It is strange when you look for the person, the person is not there. When you are not looking for the person, your mind is full of stories. Stories about this person who is a son, who has responsibilities, dreams, memories of childhood, stories of success and failures.

What are your thoughts on your findings?

Relationship with others and associated memories are what gives continuity to the story of this person. There is an experience, but I am certain that I don't control this experience.

Hi Tushar,

Seems that we've made quite some headway already, good job. You've made some useful observations :-)

There is a long story associated with this person, whether real or imagined, called Tushar. There is an experience which is happening for so many years, to a constant experiencer.

Good observations. I would suggest that the long story is not associated with the person, because there is no person. But the long story gives a sense of (being) one. So in a sense, the long story is the person. Does that resonate a bit for you?

There is a body through which this experience is experienced. When I specifically look for who Tushar is I can find nothing apart from the story, experience, body and the relationship with others.
It is strange when you look for the person, the person is not there. When you are not looking for the person, your mind is full of stories. Stories about this person who is a son, who has responsibilities, dreams, memories of childhood, stories of success and failures.

Good! So when looking for the person, none can be found. But when focusing elsewhere, and lost in thought perhaps, there arises a sense of (being) a person?
Another question: what is that sense made of? (Sensations, or thoughts or what?)

Relationship with others and associated memories are what gives continuity to the story of this person. There is an experience, but I am certain that I don't control this experience.

Another good observation. Do you think there would be a sense or story of a person, without there ever having been those relation(ship)s with others?

I would suggest that the long story is not associated with the person, because there is no person. But the long story gives a sense of (being) one. So in a sense, the long story is the person. Does that resonate a bit for you?

Yes that resonates with me completely. But a thought comes what about this body, it has been there since the beginning. This person maybe just a story, but can this body be unreal?

So when looking for the person, none can be found. But when focusing elsewhere, and lost in thought perhaps, there arises a sense of (being) a person?
Another question: what is that sense made of? (Sensations, or thoughts or what?)

That sense is made of memories, thoughts which have a pattern and are repetitive, desires, emotions which have associated sensations

Do you think there would be a sense or story of a person, without there ever having been those relation(ship)s with others

If there are no relationships with others then sense of person would be very feeble. But even then I feel mind/repetitive thoughts will find a way to create relationship with objects and thus another story be created.

Yes that resonates with me completely. But a thought comes what about this body, it has been there since the beginning. This person maybe just a story, but can this body be unreal?

If you look up (away from the body), or close your eyes, what's left of the experience labelled 'body'?
I think you would agree that you only experience sensations there are left, that are usually associated with the (concept of) body. Would you call a sensation or group of sensations body?
So.. what would you say, is there a body, and if so, what is it experientially?

Some more questions that pop up:
- Are you the body?
- Does the body experience or perceive?
- Is the body your body, or could it be just a body?

no need to give 'correct' answers, just giving me your thoughts is okay.

That sense is made of memories, thoughts which have a pattern and are repetitive, desires, emotions which have associated sensations

that resonates with me:-)

Apologies Floris for replying late.

If you look up (away from the body), or close your eyes, what's left of the experience labelled 'body'?

The experience is filled with sensations, sense of touch, body breathes, sounds can be heard and when the chain of thoughts break suddenly it is realised that attention was taken away by imaginary thoughts

I think you would agree that you only experience sensations there are left, that are usually associated with the (concept of) body. Would you call a sensation or group of sensations body?

Yes the experience of this body, can be classified as a combination of sensations both on the skin and some inside the skin. Mind makes a strong presence felt with the thoughts that keep on coming.

So.. what would you say, is there a body, and if so, what is it experientially?

There is a body and in the experience of me there are sensations which are being felt.

Some more questions that pop up:
- Are you the body?
- Does the body experience or perceive?
- Is the body your body, or could it be just a body?

No I am not the body. I can't locate myself at any particular point in the body.
I don't know whether body percieves or not. But from the standpoint of me, the sensations are being experienced through this body.
In my experience, this is the only body through which sensations are being perceived, keeping this in perspective it can be said this body belongs to me. It is definitely just a body, but the "me" is experiencing through this body. Mind is definitely attached to this body.

Thanks so much, Floris!

Apologies Floris for replying late.

Thanks so much, Floris!

Not a problem, I'm also a little late this time.
And you're welcome!

No I am not the body. I can't locate myself at any particular point in the body.

And what do you make of this? Or with other words, what does that mean, that you can't locate yourself at any particular point in the body? And then, what does "myself" then mean?

I don't know whether body percieves or not. But from the standpoint of me, the sensations are being experienced through this body.
In my experience, this is the only body through which sensations are being perceived,

Okay good, so let's explore the field of 'perceiving'.

Most people feel that they are entities who are perceiving things, like the sight of a dog, the sound of a car, the sensations of touching something. This is evident in statements such as 'I am seeing a hand'. There are 3 things or assumptions in that statement:
- The 'I' which is seeing the hand'
- The 'seeing' process, which is what this 'I' is doing/undergoing
- The 'hand' which is the seen object by the 'I', through the 'seeing' process.

Let's investigate this.
Optimally be somewhere where you can be relaxed and undisturbed, pull out your hand, or any other object you like, and look at it. Then answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?
- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?
- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing, e.g. the hand' going to a place in the head where it is received?
- Can you find something which is interpreting the seen thing?

After these, 'go to' (notice) the experience called 'seeing', and then 'go to' the experience called 'the seen thing', e.g. the hand. Toggle your attention between the place/experience of these two thing, the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience?

After that, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'? is this your experience, or if not, then what is?

And what do you make of this? Or with other words, what does that mean, that you can't locate yourself at any particular point in the body? And then, what does "myself" then mean?

I can't locate myself at any point in this body means that I am not this body. There must be some entity to whom this experience is happening, that entity is myself. The entity is having this experience which is being made possible by this mind-body mechanism

Let's investigate this.
Optimally be somewhere where you can be relaxed and undisturbed, pull out your hand, or any other object you like, and look at it. Then answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?

Looking at a pen in my hand. There is an experience of a pen being held in a hand. But in this experience if you don't start paying attention to the thoughts there is no 'I'

- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?

There is seeing happening. If I close my eyes, pen can't be seen. And thus my mind is infering that eyes of this body enables this experience of looking at the pen.
Without my mind I can't find that my eyes are looking at a pen

Can you find the experience 'the seen thing, e.g. the hand' going to a place in the head where it is received?

No I can't experience the pen going in the head

Can you find something which is interpreting the seen thing?

I can be silent for sometime and then just observe the experience. Interpretation happens after sometime when mind starts getting restless

After these, 'go to' (notice) the experience called 'seeing', and then 'go to' the experience called 'the seen thing', e.g. the hand. Toggle your attention between the place/experience of these two thing, the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience?

Seen thing and seeing is part of the same experience. To be honest when I am trying to think from point of view of 'the seen' it feels there is no life and point of view of 'seeing' aliveness is felt.

After that, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'? is this your experience, or if not, then what is?

Feel that there is just one experience which comprises both the seer and the seen.
I would rehrase 'I see a hand' as 'A hand is seen'

Good work Tushar!

I can't locate myself at any point in this body means that I am not this body. There must be some entity to whom this experience is happening, that entity is myself. The entity is having this experience which is being made possible by this mind-body mechanism

Yes good, there is more to look at here, but we can do this later.

Looking at a pen in my hand. There is an experience of a pen being held in a hand. But in this experience if you don't start paying attention to the thoughts there is no 'I'

Very good.

There is seeing happening. If I close my eyes, pen can't be seen. And thus my mind is infering that eyes of this body enables this experience of looking at the pen.
Without my mind I can't find that my eyes are looking at a pen

Good

No I can't experience the pen going in the head

Good

I can be silent for sometime and then just observe the experience. Interpretation happens after sometime when mind starts getting restless

Yes good, you say here that interpretation is happening, but no-one or nothing can be found doing it.

Feel that there is just one experience which comprises both the seer and the seen.
I would rehrase 'I see a hand' as 'A hand is seen'

That first sentence, that's perfect, exactly where I was getting at. So then your statement of 'I see a hand', and 'A hand is seen' are still implying a duality which isn't there in your experience. So we could perhaps better rephrase it to 'hand' or 'seeing' or 'seeing appearing as hand'.


So how about feeling? Let's broaden what we did with seeing, and apply it to the feeling aspect. I won't go into hearing, smelling, tasting, but you could do it on your own if you want to explore this. If so, I suggest looking into hearing, the other 2 senses are less significant.

Normally we say 'I feel a table', so, let's explore that. Put your hand on something that gives some sensations to work with, e.g. the table, close your eyes and inquire:
- can you find something which is doing the feeling? An I, a hand, a body..
- without refering or using thought, can you find something that is the object of the feeling (like a table)? Or perhaps do you just find sensations?
- what could be said about the experience, without believing thought?
- do you notice how images/thoughts are imposed onto the experience?

After doing that, is 'I feel a table' an accurate description of your experience? If not, how would you phrase it to make it as accurate as possible?

. So we could perhaps better rephrase it to 'hand' or 'seeing' or 'seeing appearing as hand'.

Totally get what you are saying over here. There is just one total experience happening which consumes all objects and subject

. Put your hand on something that gives some sensations to work with, e.g. the table, close your eyes and inquire:
- can you find something which is doing the feeling? An I, a hand, a body..

There is a feeling happening, no-one is doing the feeling

. without refering or using thought, can you find something that is the object of the feeling (like a table)?

No object can be found with eyes closed there is only feeling

.- what could be said about the experience, without believing thought?

There is a cold feeling of the surface is happening. There is feeling alone

. do you notice how images/thoughts are imposed onto the experience?

Absolutely, all the thoughts are superimposed on the feeling. These thoughts are shaped by our memories and beliefs

. After doing that, is 'I feel a table' an accurate description of your experience? If not, how would you phrase it to make it as accurate as possible?

The correct description of experience is there is a feeling of coldness and feeling of touch. Additionally there is a bit of pressure felt on the skin... There are sounds which could be heard, near or far... That is it this is the whole experience

Hi Tushar, good work. I have nothing to reply to your messages as they are spot on.

Lets use the term experience, to mean the totality of all that you experience (i.e. sounds, thoughts, sensations, etc). Then please answer the following questions about your experience.
- Can an owner of experience be found?
- Can an experiencer of experience be found that is separate from it?
- Is there any reason to believe that an inside and outside is experienced? So that sensations or thoughts are inside, and sight/color is outside?
- Is an entity found 'within' experience?
- What do you think of the statement 'there is just experience/experiencing happening'?

Wishing you the best,
Floris

- Can an owner of experience be found?

Owner of the experience has been created by mind and conditioning. In quietude, there is no owner of the experience, experience is happening

- Can an experiencer of experience be found that is separate from it?

There is just experience nothing separate from this experience

- Is there any reason to believe that an inside and outside is experienced? So that sensations or thoughts are inside, and sight/color is outside?

Body creates an image of inside and outside. But once eyes are closed and it is asked can an inside and outside be distinguished. Nothing is experienced in such a scenario, thus it seems that inside and outside are part of same experience.

- Is an entity found 'within' experience?

Mind creates a person. Last night I was tired and when I went to sleep I had this strong realisation that this person- 'Tushar' was not there at all in sleep, but experience still happened. Thus it seems that 'I am' even if person is there or not.
To be honest there is still a question, that there must be some 'entity' to whom this experience is. Because you and I both are experiencing, but your experience and my experience would be different. Having said that, somehow, it doesn't matter whether an answer to this question is found or not.

- What do you think of the statement 'there is just experience/experiencing happening'?

It brings the attention back to the silence. If only experience is happening and there is no interpretation by the mind then all of us are just experiencing. Few question comes:-
Why each one of us will have a different unique experience?
A fear comes will I become passive if I immerse in this experience, when the time comes to act will I act or not? Should I act or not?
All the life that I lived till now didn't make a difference?

Not that these questions are strong, I am fine with not having answers to them also at this moment.

Thanks Floris!