The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I think it will be the understanding that I am something that is before the thoughts and images I have for myself.

What are you looking for at LU?
To end the search for who/what realy I am, for new and new teaching and teachers, to stop this burning desire for the truth. To know the truth of what I am and based on that to live free of delusions and fears.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the realization of what I am to come by following the instructions of trusted individual. I hope if I honestly look at what is pointed to me to be able to finaly finish my search. I expect somebody to help me finish my illusions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I discovered the advaita vedanta in 2008 with Ramana Maharshi. After I found Mooji and until now I have built substantial knowledge on that teaching. I make enquirie a lot, looking inside me. I can not meditate at all, although I have tried many times.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Hi Aleks,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Hi Kay,

Thank you for your guidance. Hereby I confirm that I have read the disclaimer and the other links.

I am ready.

Aleks

Hi Aleks,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

Hi Kay,

Here is what I think.

How will life change?

I think life will be with much less stress.

How will you change?

I hope the emotions will not be so strong. There will not be the desire to control everything.

What will be different?

I feeling of wholeness and oneness maybe.

What is missing?

Peace inside me.

Aleks

Hi Aleks,

The purpose of the questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and even blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. When desired outcomes to expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Also note that these emotions will arise during our exploration as well. When they do, please let me know so that we can look at them together.

Let me know what arises when you read my responses.

How will life change?

I think life will be with much less stress.

Although having less stress can be a byproduct of realising there is no self…there is actually no one/ no thing that is feeling stress or stressless. There are thoughts about a ‘me’ that is feeling stress…but something that cannot be found cannot feel or become stressful.

How will you change?

I hope the emotions will not be so strong. There will not be the desire to control everything.

There has never ever been a ‘you’, so there has never been a ‘you’ who is controlling anything, let alone life. Life does not happen to anyone/anything. Life simply lifes.

What will be different?

I feeling of wholeness and oneness maybe.

And how would wholeness and oneness feel and look like exactly? Since there is no separate self to feel unwhole or separate…what will actually change?

What is missing?

Peace inside me.

There is no ‘inside’ or an ‘outside’ of a ‘me’. There is no 'you' that resides in a body. That points to separation…that there is a subject ‘me’, here and an object out there that isn’t me.

Kay

Hi Kay,

“Although having less stress can be a byproduct of realising there is no self…there is actually no one/ no thing that is feeling stress or stressless. There are thoughts about a ‘me’ that is feeling stress…but something that cannot be found cannot feel or become stressful.”

I do not understand how a thought of me cannot be found. And if there is a stress in the body how it will not be felt?

“There has never ever been a ‘you’, so there has never been a ‘you’ who is controlling anything, let alone life. Life does not happen to anyone/anything. Life simply lifes.”

It seems to me that I am making some decisions about the life.

“And how would wholeness and oneness feel and look like exactly? Since there is no separate self to feel unwhole or separate…what will actually change?”

I cannot say exactly how the feeling of oneness will be. I trust you that there is no separate self, but currently there is a feeling I am something in a body.

“There is no ‘inside’ or an ‘outside’ of a ‘me’. There is no 'you' that resides in a body. That points to separation…that there is a subject ‘me’, here and an object out there that isn’t me.”



Well, I thought a lot about the separation. I would say it is impossible to feel the border of the body with the outer world, but there is a feeling of existence of outer space. Maybe because one part, the body could be controlled and the other part, the outer world cannot.

Aleks

Hello Aleks,

Please use the quote function whenever you are responding to anything I have written. Ie make sure you put in quotes what I have written and put your answer underneath. This makes it much easier for me to follow and read.

You wrote what you think as responses to my responses….I wanted you to tell me what arose for you, as in emotions. Did you feel angry, resentful, resistance….what did you feel? I am not expecting you to understand what I wrote as we haven’t even begun this exploration yet.

“Although having less stress can be a byproduct of realising there is no self…there is actually no one/ no thing that is feeling stress or stressless. There are thoughts about a ‘me’ that is feeling stress…but something that cannot be found cannot feel or become stressful.”

I do not understand how a thought of me cannot be found. And if there is a stress in the body how it will not be felt?

Reread what I wrote. I said that there are thoughts ABOUT a ‘me’, and thoughts know nothing, but as the separate self is an illusion…than how can something that is illusory feel anything? This will become clearer as we move through this exploration. Please ensure you read what I write very carefully in every post I write.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay

Hi Kay,

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
[/quote]

The birds sounds.

Aleks

Hi Kay

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).[/color

The birds sounds.

Aleks

Hi Aleks,

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

The birds sounds.

Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, smell, taste, thought or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'bird sounds'? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound was 'bird sounds'?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘bird sounds’?

Kay

Hi Kay,

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'bird sounds'?

Without a thought it is not possible to know what is this.

In other words, what is it that suggests the sound was 'bird sounds'?

It is a process which searches in the memory what is that, and brings the meaning.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘bird sounds’?

It doesn't exist in the AE.

Aleks

Hi Aleks,

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'bird sounds'?

Without a thought it is not possible to know what is this.

Yes...it is only thought that points to sound and labels it as ‘bird sounds’.

In other words, what is it that suggests the sound was 'bird sounds'?

It is a process which searches in the memory what is that, and brings the meaning.

‘Memory’ is just a label for a certain type of thought, and is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system from where thoughts and images are retrieved.

It is simply a thought that suggests the sound was a ‘bird’ sound. Thoughts are just thoughts. There is no hierarchy of thought….ie one thought is no more important that another.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘bird sounds’?

It doesn't exist in the AE.

Hmmm…actual experience exists. Are you not aware of sound, thought, colour, sensation, taste and smell? If you are aware of AE then it must exist. The actual experience of ‘hearing birds’ is AE of sound.
Thought points to the sound and labels it ‘birds’.
Can you see this?

Kay

Hi Kay,

Hmmm…actual experience exists. Are you not aware of sound, thought, colour, sensation, taste and smell? If you are aware of AE then it must exist. The actual experience of ‘hearing birds’ is AE of sound.
Thought points to the sound and labels it ‘birds’.
Can you see this?

Now I understood your question. Yes, it is sound.

Memory’ is just a label for a certain type of thought, and is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system from where thoughts and images are retrieved.

It is simply a thought that suggests the sound was a ‘bird’ sound. Thoughts are just thoughts. There is no hierarchy of thought….ie one thought is no more important that

It is a strange point of view for me to regard all these different elements inside my psyche as of equal quality. Thoughts.

Aleks

Hey Aleks,

Hmmm…actual experience exists. Are you not aware of sound, thought, colour, sensation, taste and smell? If you are aware of AE then it must exist. The actual experience of ‘hearing birds’ is AE of sound.
Thought points to the sound and labels it ‘birds’.
Can you see this?

Now I understood your question. Yes, it is sound.

Great! :)

It is simply a thought that suggests the sound was a ‘bird’ sound. Thoughts are just thoughts. There is no hierarchy of thought….ie one thought is no more important that

It is a strange point of view for me to regard all these different elements inside my psyche as of equal quality. Thoughts.

Yes, there will be many strange point of views that will arise as we move through this exploration. Some will seemingly create fear, resistance, anger. Please let me know when this happens, so we can look at them together.

Thoughts are not what thought says they are. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Just like colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS/experience itself. The same goes for sound, taste, sensation and smell.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay