The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That LU guide us to see that there is no real self. It is just a guide which will guide you. You have to do the real work of looking honestly and clearly at the inquiry of the Self and cross the Gateless Gate. LU is just going to guide us through our journey.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have been doing the search for truth for a period of time. I have gone through some self awakening retreats and at present practicing Vipassana (Buddhist Meditation) Meditation. I have seen that it is a game of thoughts' but not able to see it clearly. I know that I am not there but I am stuck with that thought somewhere. something is incomplete.Something is there which has to be overcome but do not know exactly what ?. So I am looking for guidance and help from LU .

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From guided conversation I expect to get guidance for my search for the Truth and with their help can see the exact picture clearly and finally. It will be of great help to get guided from some one who have already passed the gate. With their help I would be able to get through and reach the ultimate goal.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My experience is that in Spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry I can see the truth, I can experience it, but there is something lacking . I am not able to get stabilized in that experience . I know I am not the doer, I am not there, this is an illusion a belief (and a strong one) but unable to come out of that illusion. Something is holding back. don't know what. Spiritual practices are not very helpful in that. seeking and inquiry is helpful but in that also I get stuck with some questions. There should be someone to guide you, someone who have gone through it all and finally got the sight to see the truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hello Raishankar

Nice to meet you. Welcome. My name is Jon and I guide here at LU.

Shall I call you Ravushankar or by some other name?

I have read your post with interest.

. I know that I am not there but I am stuck with that thought somewhere. something is incomplete.Something is there which has to be overcome but do not know exactly what ?

Have you looked at what this might be? Could it even be the thought it's self that is suggestive of an incompleteness?

. With their help I would be able to get through and reach the ultimate goal.

I'm very happy to offer to assist your inquiry but what if there is no ultimate goal? Or, rephrasing that,... What is your understanding of what is the 'ultimate goal'.?

Looking forward to hearing from you and working with you.

Warm regards

Jon

Hi jon

First I would like to thank you for giving your valuable time to read my post.

you can call me Ravi.

It will a great joy for me to get your valuable guidance. I am ready for it.

Have you looked at what this might be? Could it even be the thought it's self that is suggestive of an incompleteness?

Yes, you are absolutely right. After you pointed it out it was looked at and realization was there that, Yes it is another thought suggesting the incompleteness of the thought that I am not there.

I'm very happy to offer to assist your inquiry but what if there is no ultimate goal? Or, rephrasing that,... What is your understanding of what is the 'ultimate goal'.?

The Ultimate Goal in my understanding is nothing but realization of the truth there is no I, me or self.... whatever,
By the various examples of Santa and Unicorn etc. it can seen intellectulally that there is no such a thing as I. but not getting it in day to day life . knowing all this, still there is a sense of separateness of an individual.

Thanking you once again. Looking forward for your guidance...

Huge regards,

Ravi

Hi Ravi

. It will a great joy for me to get your valuable guidance. I am ready for it.

You are very welcome.

Well done for already mastering the 'quote' function.

. Yes, you are absolutely right. After you pointed it out it was looked at and realization was there that, Yes it is another thought suggesting the incompleteness of the thought that I am not there.

Good to notice that.

. it can seen intellectulally that there is no such a thing as I. but not getting it in day to day life . knowing all this, still there is a sense of separateness of an individual.

Maybe that could be because you ARE getting the thought 'I'm not getting it in daily life'? And then there seems to be a separateness of an individual?

What if that thought was dropped or not assumed to be true?

Right here and now find the 'self' that feels separate.


What is it that feels separate?


All best

Jon

Hi Jon

What if that thought was dropped or not assumed to be true?

I have tried it before (the drooping of thought ) but was not able to do it . I know it is not true . but it is still there.
Or may be I am afraid of drooping the separateness thought .

Right here and now find the 'self' that feels separate.

I have searched it may times, during meditation also, but till now I am unable to fine the self that feels separate. There is a feeling of separateness . but could not find a self, neither in side nor out side.

What is it that feels separate?

may be it is a thought of separateness that gives the feeling of a separate I. There is no one to feel the I its just another thought but this one having a deep impact on mind and body.

Thanking you

Looking forward...

Ravi

Hi Ravi,

. I have tried it before (the drooping of thought ) but was not able to do it . I know it is not true . but it is still there.
Or may be I am afraid of drooping the separateness thought .

I know what you mean. It's all very well being asked to 'drop' such a thought but how is that supposed to be achieved?

In fact, do 'you' 'think thoughts'? Are thoughts 'yours'?

Try an experiment. Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch.

What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, or be succeeded by the next thought?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

You mentioned fear. Do you find any fear or anxiety about seeing that there's no self?

All the best

Jon

In fact, do 'you' 'think thoughts'? Are thoughts 'yours'?

No I don't think thoughts and they are not mine. But they are about me and about everything associated with that me.

I am unable to create thoughts, they appear by stimulation of senses They cannot be created by will. Its right as u said they appear, hang and pass or are succeeded by another

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

It is not possible to prevent a thought. When I tried to prevent it got more prominent and there was another thought that " I was preventing a thought " I think it is better to just watch them and let them pass by. Just let them Go.

Do you find any fear or anxiety about seeing that there's no self?

Yes, probably it's anxiety about something. It's about not knowing the outcome of " THERE'S NO SELF " What will be the result and how will it effect on day to day life, relations etc....

Thanking You,

Looking forward

Ravi

Hi Ravi,

No I don't think thoughts and they are not mine. But they are about me and about everything associated with that me.

I am unable to create thoughts, they appear by stimulation of senses They cannot be created by will. Its right as u said they appear, hang and pass or are succeeded by another

OK. Good.

It is not possible to prevent a thought. When I tried to prevent it got more prominent and there was another thought that " I was preventing a thought " I think it is better to just watch them and let them pass by. Just let them Go.

Good work. Here is something interesting then. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

All the best

Jon

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

No it is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing, Not even the thought I .

It is there lingering . But there is one thing I noticed that will doing some important work there is no I thought . as soon as there is awareness of I the thought appears .

Thanks,

looking forward

Ravi

. It is there lingering . But there is one thing I noticed that will doing some important work there is no I thought . as soon as there is awareness of I the thought appears .

Yes. That's interesting. Have you ever tried to look into the space or gap after one thought has finished but before the next one has appeared?

What is 'awareness of I' exactly? Is 'I' sensed with any of the five senses of sight, touch, hearing, taste or smell?

Is it possible that thought about 'I' happens and that this is imagined to be awareness of '. a person'... , me'?

Hi jon

look into the space or gap after one thought has finished but before the next one has appeared?

I looked at it and there is literally no gap/space between thoughts. it's like one is linked to the another following it. The gap is very thin to see. it is so thin as if it seems that there is no gap/space. There is a big gap during deep sleep as there are no thoughts during that period. During meditation there we can find space but it is also for a short duration as the thought quickly arise " See there are no thoughts " So Seeing the gap/space between thoughts is also game of thoughts. There is no gap it's just another thought that there is no thought or there is a gap at this moment.

What is 'awareness of I' exactly? Is 'I' sensed with any of the five senses of sight, touch, hearing, taste or smell?

Awareness if I is the feeling of beingness, ownership feeling, the me-ness, taking credit of events happening.
No I is not sensed with any of the five senses, But due to the surrounding reality coming in contact with the senses, they get stimulated, as a result reaction takes place and the thought comes " It was my reaction " (the I thought ) and this I thought is sensed by the five senses. (I breath, I talk, I hear, I taste )

. It is there lingering . But there is one thing I noticed that will doing some important work there is no I thought . as soon as there is awareness of I the thought appears .

Yes. That's interesting. Have you ever tried to look into the space or gap after one thought has finished but before the next one has appeared?

What is 'awareness of I' exactly? Is 'I' sensed with any of the five senses of sight, touch, hearing, taste or smell?
Is it possible that thought about 'I' happens and that this is imagined to be awareness of '. a person'... , me'?

Yes, you are right the I thought just happens. There is no one to make it happen. It just happens in the awareness and then it is imagined to be awareness of the person or me. Just as breathing happens and is imagined as I breath, walking happens and is imagined as I walk, Typing is happening and is imagined as I am typing, (laugh). This is so true and so simple.

There was a slight shifting by our pointing and now it is been seen clearly that I Thought happen and it is imagined as awareness of me as a person, and this is due to the conditioning from birth till now and the DNA factor responsible for various thinking patterns.

Thanking you

looking forward with a huge smile

Ravi

Hi Ravi

I looked at it and there is literally no gap/space between thoughts. it's like one is linked to the another following it. The gap is very thin to see. it is so thin as if it seems that there is no gap/space. There is a big gap during deep sleep as there are no thoughts during that period. During meditation there we can find space but it is also for a short duration as the thought quickly arise " See there are no thoughts " So Seeing the gap/space between thoughts is also game of thoughts. There is no gap it's just another thought that there is no thought or there is a gap at this moment

Fair enough. Often it can seem that there is no gap and then, as you say, thoughts about 'see there are no tboughts' appear too.

Awareness if I is the feeling of beingness, ownership feeling, the me-ness, taking credit of events happening. 
No I is not sensed with any of the five senses, But due to the surrounding reality coming in contact with the senses, they get stimulated, as a result reaction takes place and the thought comes " It was my reaction " (the I thought ) and this I thought is sensed by the five senses. (I breath, I talk, I hear, I taste )

OK but actually, aren't 'I breath' or 'I talk' or 'I hear' or 'I taste' all thoughts ABOUT those things? You are saying that the senses sense thoughts. Can thoughts be smelled? Can they be tasted or heard or seen or touched? Do you mean that there are sensations (maybe around the body) that seem to back up the idea of a self?

Yes, you are right the I thought just happens. There is no one to make it happen. It just happens in the awareness and then it is imagined to be awareness of the person or me. Just as breathing happens and is imagined as I breath, walking happens and is imagined as I walk, Typing is happening and is imagined as I am typing, (laugh). This is so true and so simple.

Ha ha :-). Yes. So simple it's quite funny.

There was a slight shifting by our pointing and now it is been seen clearly that I Thought happen and it is imagined as awareness of me as a person, and this is due to the conditioning from birth till now and the DNA factor responsible for various thinking patterns.

Brilliant. Is there a feeling that goes with seeing tbis?

All best

Jon

Hi Jon

Is there a feeling that goes with seeing tbis?

Sorry was not able to get your question. Would you please elaborate it .

Hi Ravi

Yes of course. I didn't phrase it too well. You said...

. There was a slight shifting by our pointing and now it is been seen clearly that I Thought happen and it is imagined as awareness of me as a person,

And I was really asking if this seeing is something that is still happening? You mentioned 'shift'. If this, we're just another conceptual thought it would not be very interesting, any more than any other thought. Does it seem possible to notice that thoughts happen and are imagined as awareness of you as a person? again, possibly many many times?

Does someone have to make effort to do this noticing or does it just happen?

Jon

Hi jon

Thanks for the elaboration ...

yes!, there was a shift but it dose not seem to be happening continuously . it seem possible to notice that thoughts happen and are imagined as awareness of me but there is no continuity of this seeing . when it happens there is a feeling of emptiness but for a very shot period of time. some times it happens and other times one have to make effort to do this noticing.

Thanking you

looking forward

Ravi