The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"Self", like any other word is a concept. I only know self as a concept that I've been taught and believed in. So far, there's nothing here that I can point to as myself.

What are you looking for at LU?
To deconstruct concepts, ideas, thoughts, and beliefs as much as possible. To dispel ignorance and discover truth. A friend to help accelerate my search for truth. Someone to tell me the truth as best they can and not play Zen games.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no major expectations. Mainly, I expect someone who has been down this path before and can pinpoint where I'm at and what may be most helpful for me. Maybe they can call me out if I'm kidding myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been seeking sincerely for 4 years - mostly focused on self-inquiry and meditation. I recently had an instantaneous experience that I knew nothing, and with it came a great relief that's lasted since. I feel as if the belief in the concept personhood fell off. My previous searching looked as if I was looking in the wrong direction, trying to acquire happiness for my imagined self, and applying meaning to things that had no meaning. I had previously been exposed to direct experience looking but was never satisfied - as I was stuck on the 'how could I not be a thing' question. A friend who I trust said he thought I was having an awakening experience and suggested Kay and this website.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi Ed,

You asked for me to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self and I am happy to do so. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Confirmed. Thank you!

Hey Ed,

What is your name, or would you prefer to just be called Ed?

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

How will life change?

Life will continue on as it has been. There's a hope that my state of being changes to something more weightless and free. I feel I was previous rooted in delusion and it was very heavy - literally - as if there was somatic feedback associated with it. Lacking a belief of a doer, or someone that could change things or be changed, has been surprisingly pleasant but also confusing.

How will you change?

It's hard for me to pinpoint what I am right now. It seems like I'm an experience. I think I touched upon what change I expect in the previous question. There's really no guarantee of anything changing though I would like to dispel any ignorance. If there's anything true to be known I'd like that. The previous type of knowledge I was after has been seen as completely empty - imaginations, not the thing in actuality. Methods of "how to do." Attempts at conforming to become something that could get something.

What will be different?

Nothing. Less delusions. Less feedback. But no guarantee.

What is missing?

I don't feel like anything is missing - perhaps there could be clarity where there's confusion. There's a belief that experience clears this up and there's a desire for the appropriate experience.

Thanks for the questions. Ed is fine but it's just a nickname. This next week could be dicey for me but I suspect I won't have a problem posting once a day. I'll let you know if anything changes.

Hey Ed,

This next week could be dicey for me but I suspect I won't have a problem posting once a day. I'll let you know if anything changes.

Yep...life happens, so if you are unable to respond for a few days...please drop a line here and let me know. Responding daily or every other day helps to build momentum, and if I don't hear from you then I am going to assume that you have dropped the thread and are no longer interested.

The purpose of the previous questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and even blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So to start to become aware of AE and to learn how to ‘look’, I would like for you to do the following experiment.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Just a reminder that throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

I heard the hum of the white noise generator in the room.

Hey Ed,

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

I heard the hum of the white noise generator in the room.

Great! Now can you repeat the exercise and tell me:-

How is it known that the sound heard was "the hum of the white noise generator"?
In other words, what is it that says that it was "the hum of the white noise generator

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing "the hum of the white noise generator"?

Please do the exercise by looking at actual experience (AE), rather than giving a long intellectual answer.
Actual experience (AE) = what is actually appearing ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour, as opposed to what thoughts say are appearing.

Kay

How is it known that the sound heard was "the hum of the white noise generator"?
In other words, what is it that says that it was "the hum of the white noise generator

A thought says so.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing "the hum of the white noise generator"?

The actual experience is unique to itself and more visceral than a thought. Nothing needs to confirm that it's happening, it just is. I'd describe the experience as a low consistent hum like air is blowing through a hole.

Hello Ed,

How is it known that the sound heard was "the hum of the white noise generator"?
In other words, what is it that says that it was "the hum of the white noise generator

A thought says so.

Yes, it is simply a thought that is overlaying the actual experience of sound with a story about the sound being "the hum of the white noise generator".

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing "the hum of the white noise generator"?

The actual experience is unique to itself and more visceral than a thought. Nothing needs to confirm that it's happening, it just is. I'd describe the experience as a low consistent hum like air is blowing through a hole.

What you wrote is a story about the sound. The AE is sound.
Without any thought, how would it be known that the sound appearing is "the hum of the white noise generator"?

Kay

Without any thought, how would it be known that the sound appearing is "the hum of the white noise generator"?

It wouldn't be known as "the hum of the white noise generator." It would just be a sound without meaning.

Hi Ed,

Without any thought, how would it be known that the sound appearing is "the hum of the white noise generator"?

It wouldn't be known as "the hum of the white noise generator." It would just be a sound without meaning.

Yes, exactly. So the thought "the hum of the white generator" is AE of thought and the sound which thought is trying to describe is AE of sound. Experience (actual/direct) itself is indescribable.

How would you describe the colour labelled as 'purple' to someone who has never seen?
Can you describe the smell labelled as 'banana'? Can you describe the taste labelled as 'pear'
Can you describe the sensation labelled as 'tear drop'? Can you describe the sound labelled as 'rooster crowing'?

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, the interpretation will always be appear…but it is possible to focus on actual experience only.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay

How would you describe the colour labelled as 'purple' to someone who has never seen?

I'd have to point to something else in their experience. I'd probably chose sound. Then I'd relate how just like there are sounds with different qualities, there are colors with different qualities too. Really, I couldn't explain it and it'd be left up to their imagination.

Can you describe the smell labelled as 'banana'? Can you describe the taste labelled as 'pear'

It's definitely challenging to do this from memory. I start to use other fruit as reference which doesn't do it justice. Am I mucking things up if I say I can't?

Can you describe the sensation labelled as 'tear drop'? Can you describe the sound labelled as 'rooster crowing'?

Given that I dodged the previous question, I'll take a crack at this. A tear drop sensation is a moist feeling that tickles out of your eye and down your cheek. The sound of a 'rooster crowing' is loud, alarming, and attention grabbing. It's of a higher pitch and typically has a 3-part rhythm. I tried - but the experience does these things more justice.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Just color and thoughts about the apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, it can only be found in a thought. To be clear on my end, thoughts occur as actual experience but the content isn't real in the same way actual experience is.

However, is an apple actually known?

The concept of apple is empty independent of the actual experience - meaning 'apple' doesn't relay any real information. Only the actual experience is known.

Hey Ed,

How would you describe the colour labelled as 'purple' to someone who has never seen?

I'd have to point to something else in their experience. I'd probably chose sound. Then I'd relate how just like there are sounds with different qualities, there are colors with different qualities too. Really, I couldn't explain it and it'd be left up to their imagination.

There is no one having experiences. Experience is not derived from people and things. People and things are derived from experience. Experience = awareness/consciousness/knowing/Universe (whatever word you use).

Choosing sound is not what the question is asking. Can you actually describe the colour purple to someone who has never seen before? If you can, how would go about describing it. What I was pointing to here is that experience itself ie AE of colour is indescribable. Experience itself is indescribable. If you can describe something..then it isn't bare bone experience...it has been overlaid with a story.

Can you describe the smell labelled as 'banana'? Can you describe the taste labelled as 'pear'

It's definitely challenging to do this from memory. I start to use other fruit as reference which doesn't do it justice. Am I mucking things up if I say I can't?

No such thing as memory. Memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system from where thoughts and images are retrieved.

You can choose chocolate if you like, or steak, or BBQ sauce…or whatever….try and describe the taste.

You can describe ice cream, for example - what it is made from etc and that it is cold, tastes creamy, vanilla, chocolate, and you can describe what the word ‘taste’ refers to, however, you cannot describe the experience of/as taste…because there is no ‘taste’, there is only experience which thought is describing as taste.

Can you describe the sensation labelled as 'tear drop'? Can you describe the sound labelled as 'rooster crowing'?

Given that I dodged the previous question, I'll take a crack at this. A tear drop sensation is a moist feeling that tickles out of your eye and down your cheek. The sound of a 'rooster crowing' is loud, alarming, and attention grabbing. It's of a higher pitch and typically has a 3-part rhythm. I tried - but the experience does these things more justice.

And how would you describe how a “moist feeling that tickles out of your eye and down your cheek” feels like?

I want you to go up to someone and tell them that out in the country there are loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm. Do you think they would know what you are referring to?

What does the sentence "loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm" point to exactly? Does it point to thought, colour, taste, smell, taste or sensation?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, it can only be found in a thought. To be clear on my end, thoughts occur as actual experience but the content isn't real in the same way actual experience is.

Yes, exactly. Thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. The content of thought is simply further thought.

However, is an apple actually known?

The concept of apple is empty independent of the actual experience - meaning 'apple' doesn't relay any real information. Only the actual experience is known.

Right…so apple is not actually known.

Okay…just to make sure AE and what LOOKING is…is clear, I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay

What does the sentence "loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm" point to exactly? Does it point to thought, colour, taste, smell, taste or sensation?

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Holding a frying pan - Sensation/touch
Seeing a frying pan - color
Hearing a car drive by - sound
Feeling body temperature rise - sensation
Reading computer screen - color
Hearing the dishwasher - sound
Seeing the dog - color
Petting the dog - sensation
Hearing a motorcycle - sound
Eating a cookie - taste