Find what does not come and go - gondwana

[Lumen2go]

Original German thread: viewtopic.php?t=6834
Re-starting in English.


LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Answer 18.7.18: Intellectually, I know what is meant, since I have read many books and watched videos, and also meditating since a few years.

The numerous first hand testimonials seem authentic and plausible to me and are mostly consistent. However, I still lack the immediate experience.

Addition 24.9.18: I had some short glimpses in immediate experience, but by luck and not always accessible .


What are you looking for at LU?
Answer 18.7.18: In spite of my autodidact capabilities, I seem to have too many blind spots in this topic, to be able to come to direct experience without help by another person and dialogue.

Addition 24.9.18: I find it really amazing that written communication with a complete stranger can have such deep effect. It reminds me of the fact that every contact is probably mostly a projection, and at the same time we are all connected.


What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Answer 18.7.18: I expect individually adopted hints, that help me to identify my blind spots and to distinguish the maze of thoughts from true recognition and inner experience.

Addition 24.9.18: Even though the"I" does not exist ;) I would appreciate some kind of personal connection and lively flow in the communication. This medium is abstract enough.


What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
NOTE: German version had a different question: "what is your background with regards to your search?"
Answer 18.7.18: My university subject of theoretical physics was already motivated by search for truth:
what holds the world together in its innermost.

Also Rilke, poetry, history and Buddhism have always attracted me.

I have not found it out, and therefore plunged into practical life: children, house, career...
Now I am 52 years old, and the question for truth is more urgent than ever.

Addition 24.9.18: This year, I have taken some real action and first time was attending some real world weekend retreats: Eli & Gangaji, Christian Meyer, Hans Hein.

On YouTube and in books: Rupert Spira, Mooji, Lisa Cairns, Anssi, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle.


On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[gondwana]

I had some short glimpses in immediate experience, but by luck and not always accessible.

Great, let's start there. Please describe these experiences - what was seen and what triggered it?

[Lumen2go]

I had some short glimpses in immediate experience, but by luck and not always accessible.

Great, let's start there. Please describe these experiences - what was seen and what triggered it?

I was driving to work and listening to audiobook from Gangaji, talking about giving up control. Suddenly I was very touched and crying, not knowing exactly why. Then a very light feeling, I remember the trees along the motorway being INTENSE REAL trees, and myself having no weight at all. First I was a bit scared not to be able to drive, but actually that was no problem. Actually there were no problems at all. Everything was just the way it had to be. I could function easily and do my work, where mental energy and problem solving would slowly take over again.

2nd example: like many times before when taking a shower in the morning, I had again the feeling of falling into the abyss, a feeling of being completely lost and desperate and without anything to hold onto. But this time something else happened: I suddenly realized that also these dark feelings were part of what comes and goes, and I started to laugh like crazy, being so relieved about this. Since then, the abyss comes back now and then, but I welcome it and it loses its threat.

[gondwana]

Thanks for sharing, some good glimpses there :)

Firstly. It should be realised that any apparent “mystical” type experiences or blissful experiences (e.g. falling into the abyss as you mentioned) are considered just “candy”. They are a nice treat along the path, but DO NOT mistake them for the destination! The destination being sought, is actually a very simple mundane thing, at first sight. If an expectation is being held, that some mystical or blissful experience will be the final result, then this expectation will block all seeing of the true thing when it arises. So enjoy the candy. But do not attach to it or seek it. It is a fun gift on the side, nothing more!

listening to audiobook from Gangaji, talking about giving up control

Yes. Secondly, it is ALL about giving up the illusion of control. All spiritual progress fundamentally boils down to SURRENDER.

Any sense of control no matter how vague or small, is a form of belief in a “self”. There has to be some type of “me” to be “in control”! And what we are fundamentally trying to do here, is see beyond the illusion of the existence of the separate self — a “me”. To do that, it must be seen that control is also just an illusion. Perpetuate any sense of control and we perpetuate the illusion, blocking true seeing.

Note, that expecting or seeking a special outcome (the candy) is another form of believing a “me” is “in control” — trying to control or know in advance the outcome.

The best way to view this is, “you” simply have to get out of the way, and allow realisation to happen! It is happening all by itself :D

Let’s review some basic groundwork which forms an important foundation, with a simple experiment.

Try this for real, and report back what you find:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible! This is an example of using thought.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc. This is an example of actual experience (AE).

How does actual experience compare to thought?
Which feels more real?
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

Please answer each question individually, and answer all questions.

[Lumen2go]

Thanks for sharing, some good glimpses there :)

Firstly. It should be realised that any apparent “mystical” type experiences or blissful experiences (e.g. falling into the abyss as you mentioned) are considered just “candy”.

Thanks for pointing this out. That is clear to me and I am really not craving for mystical experiences or bliss. I just want truth, even though I am not sure what that means. In a rather scientific approach I guess, not presuming a specific outcome.

The destination being sought, is actually a very simple mundane thing, at first sight.

That's an interesting hint. Both the "mundane" and "first sight".

Yes. Secondly, it is ALL about giving up the illusion of control. All spiritual progress fundamentally boils down to SURRENDER.
...

The best way to view this is, “you” simply have to get out of the way, and allow realisation to happen! It is happening all by itself :D

Yes :) absolutely clear - in theory. In daily life, control attempts all over the place of I look closely. Seems to be deeply engrained.

Let’s review some basic groundwork which forms an important foundation, with a simple experiment.

Try this for real, and report back what you find:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible! This is an example of using thought.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc. This is an example of actual experience (AE).

1. How does actual experience compare to thought?

It's far more detailed. Deviating from expectation. My imagined Mango piece was orange, the real one rather yellow-green. Different texture.

Also I found that my Mango-in-thought was strongly coupled to Mango-related memories: how once I was disappointed about a bad hard Mango. How once it was so slippery that it fell on the floor. How it looked like in the store. There was no clean abstract set of thoughts of a Mango like in a dictionary.



2. Which feels more real?

Obviously the real one feels more real :)



3. Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?

Of course not. It was even distracting and distorting.


4. Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

Well it's an imagined completion. Potentially, thought can even invent aspects of reality that are simply not there. So it's a parallel universe, not necessarily linked to real reality.

But i have one question: I must admit that also sense perception is not reliable. The eyes can also see things that are not there. So how can I trust them?

[gondwana]

I just want truth, even though I am not sure what that means. In a rather scientific approach I guess, not presuming a specific outcome.

Exactly what is required

Obviously the real one feels more real :)

Well it's an imagined completion. Potentially, thought can even invent aspects of reality that are simply not there. So it's a parallel universe, not necessarily linked to real reality.

Good. So it was seen that thought can never be real, even though it may claim to be.

Thought can only do one of two things:
- thought ABOUT actual experience
- thought about other thoughts

But it is never a substitute for actual experience. This is important going forward.

But i have one question: I must admit that also sense perception is not reliable. The eyes can also see things that are not there. So how can I trust them?

Good observation! Eventually, the realisation will arise that in fact even what appears to be seen, is also grossly modified by thought (belief) or even completely invented. These are tiny, subtle, just-beneath-the-surface, nonverbal thoughts; and they have been there a VERY, very long time. So this takes some time to reach such a depth.

In truth, it is not about one thing being more reliable than another. The only thing that really matters for our purpose here, is that the very illusion we are trying to pierce, exists IN and AS thought. So we must simply use anything that is NOT thought as a tool to pierce it. The regular senses are simply a convenient tool because they’re always available to everyone.

We cannot use thought to catch other thoughts.
Direct experience is immediate and non-analytical, it’s the fastest way. Could you use a thief to catch a thief?

Also I found that my Mango-in-thought was strongly coupled to Mango-related memories:

That’s a good insight. Thought frequently strongly couples to other thoughts, which couple to more thoughts ... and so on.

This is how it all gets crazy.

Yes absolutely clear - in theory. In daily life, control attempts all over the place of I look closely. Seems to be deeply engrained.

Good. Let’s look directly at that sense of control, in actual experience.

If there really is a “you” in there, controlling everything, then you will know exactly how you do things — right?

As you talk out loud to someone, observe the process from the background.
How EXACTLY do you talk?
How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, and pitch to form words?
How do you do ALL those complex things right before the sounds come out?
And while deciding WHAT to say next?
Describe the process you use.

Go take a walk, observe the walking.
How do you control all the micro-muscle movements and retain perfect balance and stability?
Can you still walk while thinking about other things?
Describe the process.

Observe breathing.
How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath?
How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current moment, and when to speed up or slow down?
Describe the process.

Observe thought as it happens.
How do you actually decide the next thought which comes up?
Do you decide the next thought with another thought?
Then who decides the thought before and the one before that?
At which point do you make the decision what to think next?
Can you observe it happening in reality?
Describe the process.

Now answer the following questions:

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or is there just talking?
Is there a walker; or is there just walking happening?
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing happening?
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking happening all by itself?

Is it in fact only thought which tells that you control all these things?

[gondwana]

How did that go, anything interesting? :)

[Lumen2go]

Dear Tim, sorry for my late response. I had a few days off and was spending the time with my friend.

Thought can only do one of two things:
- thought ABOUT actual experience
- thought about other thoughts

But it is never a substitute for actual experience. This is important going forward.

Agree. It is clear to me now. It seems to me that thought was so predominant most of my life, that I simply lost track of other forms of awareness like AE. It is so subtle and silent and quickly overridden by the next thought chain.
But I have one question: isn't it also possible to have actual experience of thought? When I observe thought? I guess the answer is yes, since you mention thought in one row together with talking, walking, breathing below?!

How EXACTLY do you talk?

It's mostly automated. Of course I cannot control all the details. The sequences of muscle contractions are stored in the "body memory" I guess, like all the other things you learn as a baby. It is fascinating how that works, but to be honest, I could still argue that "I" have the control on a meta level, using the automated modules that have been developed and optimized over time. Like a programmer who will implement a certain functionality only once and forever, encapsulate it and re-use it as needed. First time speaking takes a year or more of training for a human being, then the basics are set, and more and more words and complexity are added.

It feels like there is a thought or idea coming up, triggered by some input or other thought. In the beginning, it is foggy and blurred, then quickly getting sharper edges and forming out details, sub-thoughts, thought chains, like a tree. At some point, a mapping into words occurs, there is a lot of re-using and referencing happening to existing memories, otherwise it would take much much more time. Once the words are there, they can be expressed either orally or in writing (like now), and again making use of "stored procedures" (a term from database management), so that a simple command (from conscience?) can trigger a full sequence of very complex bodily functions which are not at all conscious.

Interestingly, I cannot remember to have consciously decided "I want to learn to speak". But I guess I was trying to imitate people around me.

Go take a walk, observe the walking. Can you still walk while thinking about other things?

Same thing. Walking is mostly automated and needs no conscious attention to be successful. It was very hard to learn in the beginning, with months of try and error, but once it worked, the muscle pattern could be stored and details forgotten, only to be re-used as needed. Therefore walking is possible while thinking about other things. Same with driving, eating, scratching, cycling, running, swimming etc.

Observe breathing.

This is a bit different since breathing did work from the moment of birth, else the baby would die. So here there was not even a training period needed to acquire that ability. Except for some optimizations, where attention would be focused on the breath, like meditation or singing exercises. This could modify the automated patterns slightly, but not substantially.

But there is a difference to other essential body functions like digestion or sweating. I can hold my breath (for a while), but I cannot pause my digestion or stop sweating (well maybe some yogis can).

Observe thought as it happens.

Wow good question. So when did this start? Could I have ever existed without thought? Watching babies, it seems so. Or maybe rather thought is there from the beginning, but first very simple and basic (like "hunger" or "cold", causing the baby to cry), and then later becoming more and more sophisticated and complex, especially when starting with thoughts about thoughts, building meta levels above each other.

How do you actually decide the next thought which comes up?

I do not decide this. It is coming up by itself. It is a creative process, like upcoming ideas. The assumption to decide this with another thought would lead to an infinite chain of "deciding" thoughts, as you point out.
When I become aware of a thought, it is already there. Then I can think about that thought and start the chain "where it all gets crazy" as you say rightly :)
But even the thought I think about another thought is not determined by the other thought, could be completely different and is therefore another act of creativity.

I have done some creative work in the past (music composing, computer programming), so I am very familiar with the nondeterministic nature of thoughts and I actually appreciate it :) Somewhere I have read of a brain model, stating that there is 1000fold more nondeterministic and chaotic thoughts coming up in the brain than we know. A very rigid filter system evaluates each thought about consistency and usefulness and eliminates more than 99% of all thought (like a spam filter), which is good since else we would die very quickly. The difference between normal people and artists is that the artist's filter is just a bit less rigid...

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or is there just talking?
Is there a walker; or is there just walking happening?
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing happening?
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking happening all by itself?

Is it in fact only thought which tells that you control all these things?

Well I am completely fine and agreeing for all these automated motor functions, like talking, walking, breathing.
Where I still keep some illusion maybe is that on a meta level, there is some control from thinking above talking or walking at least. While my leg movement happens completely outside of consciousness, I would still decide to walk to the supermarket and not to the river, isnt it? So at least there is some belief that I am in control of the "big picture", leaving the annoying details to the automated motor system.

Same with talking. While the muscle movements of mouth and lungs, and maybe even the detailed wording are mostly automated and repetitive from previous experience and training, the "big picture", the ideas expressed, or the goal to convince someone, or to retrieve a certain information, are still intentional and in control of the mind?!

Now, of course, even if walking and talking are caused by thought, it is still a thought that is out of control in that sense that it arose from some creative potential without a doer.
But actually isnt it a question of the perspective? If I draw a circle around all these spontaneous thoughts and call this circle "me" - wouldnt then this "me" control the walking and talking??

Thank you for your very inspirational questions! Will try to respond more quickly in the future.
All the best
Jan

[gondwana]

But actually isnt it a question of the perspective? If I draw a circle around all these spontaneous thoughts and call this circle "me" - wouldnt then this "me" control the walking and talking??

The answer has already been seen, and skipped over.

If we can draw an arbitrary circle around this set of spontaneous (uncontrolled) thoughts, and call it “self”, then does “self” in fact exist at all as a fixed, permanent entity?

Or, is it in fact only a convenient label we apply to some set of arbitrary things, the contents of which change from one moment to the next?

By any definition, is such a thing objectively real, or only a concept?

[Lumen2go]

If we can draw an arbitrary circle around this set of spontaneous (uncontrolled) thoughts, and call it “self”, then does “self” in fact exist at all as a fixed, permanent entity?

Or, is it in fact only a convenient label we apply to some set of arbitrary things, the contents of which change from one moment to the next?

By any definition, is such a thing objectively real, or only a concept?

Yes indeed, it is a very convenient label!

And a concept.

The concept makes sense because the set is at least semi stable for a few decades, has some identifiable properties (called personal character) which change slowly from moment to moment, glued together by memories.

And for sure, an ever changing bundle like this does not answer the question "who am I?" in a satisfactory way.

But to be honest, I am really not sure if there is anything else? What if I am indeed no more than an ever changing bundle of thoughts, which has become somehow self aware and imagines itself into being?

I remember this movie "the sixth sense" where the protagonist dies in the beginning and just imagines to be still alive, until he finds out at the end of the movie that he is actually a ghost.

https://youtu.be/hJ_bWcN8YkM

What if we all are ghosts, just loose bundles of thoughts? Pretty desperate.

That's why people like you are really important witnesses, who have "seen the light" and can attest that there is more!

You say "the ego needs to step aside". Fine with me. But what is left? Is there anything left at all that does not come and go???

[gondwana]

You say "the ego needs to step aside". Fine with me. But what is left? Is there anything left at all that does not come and go???

That is where we ultimately get to. But not yet. First it must be seen what is NOT.

I remember this movie "the sixth sense" where the protagonist dies in the beginning and just imagines to be still alive, until he finds out at the end of the movie that he is actually a ghost.

That's just overthinking. Do not worry about it. Of course there is a wanting to cling to the belief in the ego, it is a belief that has survived all this time, after all! But there is nothing to fear from seeing the truth, absolutely nothing. And everything to gain!

What if I am indeed no more than an ever changing bundle of thoughts, which has become somehow self aware

Sit quietly for a few minutes.
Call out "I" loudly into the air a few times.
Watch the "I" thought as it comes up.
What does the "I" thought do?
Can a thought DO anything?

[Lumen2go]

there is nothing to fear from seeing the truth, absolutely nothing. And everything to gain!

First it must be seen what is NOT.

Thank you so much for your confirmation!
I trust you and follow your advice: First see what is not. Agreed.

Sit quietly for a few minutes.
Call out "I" loudly into the air a few times.
Watch the "I" thought as it comes up.
What does the "I" thought do?
Can a thought DO anything?

The I thought by itself is completely powerless. Vanishes in the air. A dry label without substance. A bundle of energy. A wind gust.

The I thought gains power when it pulls a second word after it. A verb: I want. I like. I need to. I think. I believe. I plan to.
Then at least it feels like it is the doer, determining the path forward.

There are a lot of actions throughout the day. Who determines if I eat something or clean the dishes first? Who makes me stand up in the morning and be at work on time?

Intellectually, I know that the source of all decisions is uncontrollable, it would be an endless chain otherwise, as discussed.

But it still feels as if "I" am responsible of my actions and as if "I" take decisions based on current situation, even though sometimes too quickly to become conscious.

So you would say that this "I" thought is just a learned, convenient pattern, and life would work without it?

When I try to imagine a life without this "I" thought, it feels like a regression, to something child like, unconscious and dumb?! It feels like my intelligence is linked to this "I" thought. As if individual viewpoints and insights and personal ways would not be possible anymore, and life would just be a numb trot to a bitter ending. Not possible to be something special anymore! No way to live out my individual potentials?!

Thank you so much for your time and your advice!

All the best
Jan

[Lumen2go]

Update: Again and again, I was trying out direct experience today. And sometimes I could see that there exists definitely more than thought! Thought comes in almost immediately with interpretation. But thought is not necessary for direct experience, like seeing the food, tasting it, feeling the body etc.
To know this makes me very happy. Even though I cannot maintain this insight for long.
Thank you
Jan

[gondwana]

Thank you so much for your confirmation!
I trust you and follow your advice: First see what is not. Agreed.

Great! There is a little bit of surrender here. Just step through and see what happens. Unafraid curiosity, like a child.

The I thought by itself is completely powerless. Vanishes in the air. A dry label without substance. A bundle of energy. A wind gust.

The I thought gains power when it pulls a second word after it. A verb: I want. I like. I need to. I think. I believe. I plan to.
Then at least it feels like it is the doer, determining the path forward.

Absolutely, yes! A thought can do nothing. At all.

Unless we chain it to more and more thoughts, persisting it.
Since a single thought alone, cannot be paused and retained. If you look at one alone, this is impossible to do, they always evaporate.

But it still feels as if "I" am responsible of my actions and as if "I" take decisions based on current situation, even though sometimes too quickly to become conscious.

This is best dealt with by simply looking closely to see if it is true. It is easy to do so.
Instructions are posted at the bottom of this message.

So you would say that this "I" thought is just a learned, convenient pattern, and life would work without it?

That is exactly what I am saying. It is the sole reason this entire web site and spiritual path exists. If that were not true, wouldn't all these other seekers have revolted and burned the place down by now! But instead, they are now freed from the pattern.

Look at it this way:
The thought "I" can be observed, yes? You just did it.
So, there MUST be something PRIOR to the thought "I", already there, always on, otherwise it could not be observed.
This always functions regardless of the "I" thought arising or not! Life continues!
The "I" thought cannot DO anything, remember - it is not needed to function. Simply a mirage!
If we take away the mirage, does life in the desert die, or continue regardless?

When I try to imagine a life without this "I" thought, it feels like a regression, to something child like, unconscious and dumb?!

Or, perhaps something more innocent, free and limitless?

It feels like my intelligence is linked to this "I" thought.

Sounds like pure ego fantasy to me ;)
Where does creativity come from? Does "I" author it, or is it spontaneous?

As if individual viewpoints and insights and personal ways would not be possible anymore, and life would just be a numb trot to a bitter ending. Not possible to be something special anymore! No way to live out my individual potentials?!

Conditioning, personality, individuality, uniqueness, character, creativity, insight...all remain. We are simply talking about dropping the illusion of CONTROL over these and other things. Do "you" really consciously author your "personality traits" throughout the day, or does this just arise all by itself?

Perhaps when the choke is removed, these things can truly flourish?

Update: Again and again, I was trying out direct experience today. And sometimes I could see that there exists definitely more than thought! Thought comes in almost immediately with interpretation. But thought is not necessary for direct experience, like seeing the food, tasting it, feeling the body etc.

Yes! Exactly! Keep watching that closely.

To know this makes me very happy. Even though I cannot maintain this insight for long.

That is the small opening in the gate. By which we will open it further, and step through together :)


Try this:
If there really is a “you” in there, controlling everything you do, then you will know exactly how you do things — right?

As you talk out loud, observe the process from the background.
How EXACTLY do you talk?
How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, and pitch to form words?
How do you do ALL those complex things right before the sounds come out?
And while deciding WHAT to say next?
Describe the process you use.

Take a walk, observe the walking.
How do you control all the micro-muscle movements and retain perfect balance and stability?
Can you still walk while thinking about other things?
Describe the process.

Observe breathing.
How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath?
How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current moment, and when to speed up or slow down?
Describe the process.

Observe thought.
How do you decide the next thought which comes up?
Do you decide the next thought with another thought?
Then who decides the thought before and the one before that?
At which point do you make the decision what to think next?
Can you observe it happening in reality?
Describe the process.

Now answer the following questions:

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or is there just talking?
Is there a walker; or is there just walking?
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing?
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking?

Is it in fact only a THOUGHT, which claims that you control all these things?

[Lumen2go]

Hey Tim, thank you so much for your beautiful answer. I was really touched by this, and wanted to answer immediately. Then somehow I got distracted. It seems like an urgency of spiritual search brings me here. Then, when I start to feel better, the urgency is gone, and my focus shifts away from this looking practice, to life as it used to be, with a myriad of other, seemingly more dramatic events. So maybe some ego game still going on here, always looking for the next kick?!

But then, my longing for freedom comes back, and here I am, really helpless and lost again, with a lot of crying.

Great! There is a little bit of surrender here. Just step through and see what happens. Unafraid curiosity, like a child.

Yes. I surrender to the guidance and wisdom of the universe. Ego has brought me nowhere near the end of search.

Unless we chain it to more and more thoughts, persisting it.
Since a single thought alone, cannot be paused and retained.

That's an interesting insight: persistence of thoughts happens by chaining them! Thank you!

If we take away the mirage, does life in the desert die, or continue regardless?

Beautiful and instructive image!
Clear message. Guess I am still in love with that mirage. So hard to let it go when you don't know what you will get instead. But I am here for truth, not for possession.

Or, perhaps something more innocent, free and limitless?

Yes perhaps. That would be very good news.

Conditioning, personality, individuality, uniqueness, character, creativity, insight...all remain. We are simply talking about dropping the illusion of CONTROL over these and other things. Do "you" really consciously author your "personality traits" throughout the day, or does this just arise all by itself?

Perhaps when the choke is removed, these things can truly flourish?

Good news again. Thank you so much!

Yes! Exactly! Keep watching that closely.

I will.

That is the small opening in the gate. By which we will open it further, and step through together :)

This really touched me. I am not alone with this. Thank you so much!


The exercise of observing the talking, walking, breathing, thinking was something we had before. I will continue to watch closely.

One question: would you say there is a difference between observing and perceiving? Is observing more disconnected, while perceiving more in the middle of it?
I ask this because of this spiritual trap called "bypass": to observe the feelings, so that I don't have to feel them anymore.

Thanks for all
Jan