The Gate

Hi AC. Please begin by telling me what interests you about the recognition of no self. You wrote a lot in the previous thread, so it will be fine to just briefly say what your interest is now. We'll go point by point. This is the start.

Hi AC. Please begin by telling me what interests you about the recognition of no self. You wrote a lot in the previous thread, so it will be fine to just briefly say what your interest is now. We'll go point by point. This is the start.

Hello Anki.
This is a thread i am participating in, but it's not my thread, i did not create it.
Technically, it's your thread and you have invited me to. Thankyou by the way.
Why did you create it, why could you not simply communicate with me in the other thread?
Don't answer, I was just pondering out aloud.
Don't see the need to state that we'll go point by point or that this is the beginning of our dialogue as those two things are quite obvious.

Anyways...okey dokey, ready when you are Anki.

My interest has not changed...here's my original statement from the other thread...

My expectations are to understand the theory of no self and how that equates to liberation and awakening.( two different meanings in my mind)
'Cus if i cannot comprehend the concept i cannot proceed with the process.
I have been reading several threads in the one on one section and i don't get the idea that there is no self or what that has to do with awakening or freedom.

I already have one question Anki.

Unleash yourself. Look. No self to unleash.

Your sig...how can a self be unleashed if there in no self to unleash?
It's like saying, go outside because you already are.

M

Hi AC. Good to see you here. I like to start with the basics:

I will ask questions, give examples, and direct you through some experiential exercises. Your job is to be as honest as you are able, and to report in at least once a day, if possible (even if it's just to say you will respond later).

There is no interest here in you believing anything. You must look deeply and honestly if you are to realize this, and then there will not be belief on your part, but knowing. It's that simple.

Agreed?

Thanks for the reaffirmation of why you are here. If you are in agreement of the above then we'll start right there.

I'm actually Lisa, BTW. Shall I continue calling you AC?

M

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the rules of the One on One section denhamer
Here ya go, have a bang on this link. One on One rules
If you still feel the need or desire to communicate...you are most welcome to PM me or begin another thread.

Hi AC. Good to see you here. I like to start with the basics:

Hello Anki.
~sighs~...basics..again?

I will ask questions, give examples, and direct you through some experiential exercises. Your job is to be as honest as you are able, and to report in at least once a day, if possible (even if it's just to say you will respond later).

There is no interest here in you believing anything. You must look deeply and honestly if you are to realize this, and then there will not be belief on your part, but knowing. It's that simple.

Agreed?

For the third time, yes.
Though i have doubts about this not being a belief, as Chris seemed to infer I had to view this through a filter of a belief.
But he's stopped communicating so that can neither be confirmed or denied by him.

Thanks for the reaffirmation of why you are here. If you are in agreement of the above then we'll start right there.

I'm actually Lisa, BTW. Shall I continue calling you AC?

Yes, and you have not specified, do you prefer Lisa or Anki, as the common protocol of teh internets is using a person's net name?

Hello AC. Sorry for the delay.

Yes, please call me Lisa.

When you first responded to the questions about your interests here at LU you said:

My expectations are to understand the theory of no self and how that equates to liberation and awakening.( two different meanings in my mind)
'Cus if i cannot comprehend the concept i cannot proceed with the process.
I have been reading several threads in the one on one section and i don't get the idea that there is no self or what that has to do with awakening or freedom.

Please respond to my questions about that. The suggestion is to be as succinct and brief as possible. No need for mini-dissertations, however fun to write and read. Either you can do the above and are willing, or not. Simple.

1. Are you here strictly to understand theory or do you want to go beyond 'thinking about'?

2. Can you set aside for now the requirement that without comprehending concepts there is no proceeding?

3. Are you willing to be in the "i don't get the idea" mode, i.e., lack of understanding, a bit more than is your comfort zone, and simply follow the guiding?

In order to move forward together there must be a basic understanding and agreement between us. LU is not about understanding theory, it is about direct experience. Some concepts need to be embraced in order to move ahead, yet in the end concepts become clear when direct experience makes them so. And being in the mode of not knowing, lack of understanding, is of course where everyone is upon arrival here. It's why we all show up to be guided. We want to be in knowing, in understanding.

Let's get clear about these things and proceed accordingly.

Hello AC. Sorry for the delay.

Yes, please call me Lisa.

No probs Lisa, I prefer to take my time when exploring the unknown.

Let's get clear about these things and proceed accordingly.

i like the sound of this, and will respond to all of your post tomorrow as it's offline time for me.

When you first responded to the questions about your interests here at LU you said:

My expectations are to understand the theory of no self and how that equates to liberation and awakening.( two different meanings in my mind)
'Cus if i cannot comprehend the concept i cannot proceed with the process.
I have been reading several threads in the one on one section and i don't get the idea that there is no self or what that has to do with awakening or freedom.

Please respond to my questions about that. The suggestion is to be as succinct and brief as possible. No need for mini-dissertations, however fun to write and read. Either you can do the above and are willing, or not. Simple.

Not as simple as one thinks. If i conclude something needs clarifying or exploring to help me understand a topic, I will express it.
Just because another concludes this is not necessary is not my concern.

1. Are you here strictly to understand theory or do you want to go beyond 'thinking about'?

I explore by observation, then i ponder the information recieved from these observations.
So far, the information i have observed does not validate the theory that there is no self.
I neither claim this theory is correct or not, just that so far in all my discussions with people here, I conclude there is a self.
But i still continue to explore because i know how subtle perception can be blinded.

2. Can you set aside for now the requirement that without comprehending concepts there is no proceeding?

I'm a bit unclear of what you are asking me because of how you have worded it.
Comprehension is obtained within the experience of proceeding.
One doesn't comprehend, then proceed.
One ventures into the unknown in order to comprehend.
The understanding is obtained as one ventures into the unknown.
That is how one gains, by going beyond what one already has.

3. Are you willing to be in the "i don't get the idea" mode, i.e., lack of understanding, a bit more than is your comfort zone, and simply follow the guiding?

I am already in the "i don't get the idea" mode.
I have already stated i don't understand how a person can claim, from Clear Mind observation that there is no self.
I have been following the guiding.
It seems that you too have concluded, or are assuming that just because i see a self where others see a no self, that I am not participating.
I look when they say to look, and i see a self. I look and a i report what i see, and i am met with all manner of accusations.
I am puzzled as to why others cannot accept that this is what i see when i look.
It appears you are assuming i am fearfully remaining in my comfort zone, i theorize this because you do not even know me in order to know what my comfort zone is.
I wonder how many times I have to say i am here to explore something i don't understand before people accept that's what i am doing.

In order to move forward together there must be a basic understanding and agreement between us.

Agreed, misunderstanding is quite common in verbal dialogues due to many factors.
This is why i spend a lot of time seeking clarification of things if i either do not understand what the other is saying or i can see there could be more than one meaning to a word or phrase.

LU is not about understanding theory, it is about direct experience. Some concepts need to be embraced in order to move ahead, yet in the end concepts become clear when direct experience makes them so.

Please define direct experience, what faculties one employs in order to achieve it.
Please clarify what you mean by embrace, as i assume that's different from 'understanding'.
One can clearly understand a concept regardless if the direct experiences validates the concept or not.
But i get your point in that the experience, the results from testing a theory is the proof that the theory was correct or not.
That's how i conduct my life. I observe, i see things and theorize what it means, i conduct tests to check my theories.
It's a lot slower way to journey than relying on unsubstaniated beliefs, but it's far less erroneous and well worth the time and effort.

And being in the mode of not knowing, lack of understanding, is of course where everyone is upon arrival here.

That's me, i don't understand how a person can look and see there is no self.
And the more i look, the more that there is a self is verified.

It's why we all show up to be guided. We want to be in knowing, in understanding.

That's me. I want to understand this no self thing, and you and others keep referring to direct experience, and i'm all for it, but so far the information i see from my direct experiences here, i interpret that information into there is a self.
And for some unknown reason, that seems to upset those that are guiding me.

Let's get clear about these things and proceed accordingly.

Okey dokey, ready when you are Lisa.

Dearest Alternate Carpark...

It is with great gladness I drop out of this thread. You are in a thread with another, and it has my blessing, which of course it does not need. The gladness is for the potential it presents.

Take the blows from StepVhan. Gasp for air. Bleed buckets on the floor. Whatever it takes to stop putting up your mind-shield to protect yourself. Let it all go...

Chance of a lifetime here. It could come again sometime, but since you never know....

Much love, even though it won't help a bit (and I really mean both of those things).

Lisa

Dearest Alternate Carpark...

It is with great gladness I drop out of this thread. You are in a thread with another, and it has my blessing, which of course it does not need. The gladness is for the potential it presents.

You commit yourself to help, then back out of this commitment.
You give my other discussion your blessings which you also state it doesn't need.
As Spock would say...Interesting.

Take the blows from StepVhan. Gasp for air.

Blows, as in, hot air?
Gasp, as in, smelly hot air?

If you mean psychological blows to my psyche....I offer this story...

It's from the first Eastern philosophy book I bought back in 2007.
-----------------------------
"Gautam Buddha was surrounded by a crowd that was abusing him,
using ugly words, obscene words, because he was against the organised religion of the Hindus
and against the Hindu holy scriptures, the Vedas.
He had condemned the priesthood, saying that these were exploiters, parasites.
Naturally, the Brahmans were enraged.

This was a Brahman village through which he was passing, and the Brahmans surrounded him
and said every kind of bad thing that they could manage.
He listened silently.
His disciples became angry, but because Buddha was present,
it was not courteous for them to say anything.
The master was standing so silent, and listening as if these people were saying sweet things.

Finally Buddha said to them, "If the things that you wanted to say to me are finished,
I would like to go on to the next village where people are waiting for me.
But if you are not finished, after a few days I will be returning and I will inform you.
Then I will have enough time to listen to all that you want to say."

One man said, "Do you think that we are saying something? We are condemning you !
Do you understand or not? Because anybody else would become angry, and you are standing silently..."

The statement that Buddha made to these village people is immensely significant.
He said, "You have come a little too late. If you had come ten years ago when I was insane as you are,
not a single person would have left here alive."

Ten years ago he was a prince, a warrior, one of the best archers of his time,
a great swordsman, and those Brahmans...
he could have removed their heads with a single blow, without any difficulty,
because those Brahmans know nothing about swords or arrows or being a warrior.
He would have cut them almost like vegetables.

He said, "You have come too late. Ten years ago if you had come...
but now I am no longer insane; I cannot react.
But I would like to ask you one question.
In the last village, people came with sweets, fruits and flowers to receive me;
however, we take food only once a day, and we had already taken our food. And we don't carry things, so we had to tell them,
"You please forgive us, we cannot accept these sweets, fruits and flowers.
We accept your love, but these things you will have to keep."

"I want to ask you", he said to the angry crowd,
"What must they have done with the sweets, fruits and flowers they had brought as presents for us?"

One man said, "What is the mystery in it? They must have distributed them all throughout the village."

Buddha said, "That makes me very sad. What will you do,
because I don't accept what you have brought, in the same way I did not accept the sweets, fruits and flowers that the people brought me in the other village.
If I don't accept your obscenities, your ugly words, your dirty words...if I don't accept them, what can you do?
What are you going to do with all this garbage that you have come with?
You will have to take it back to your homes and give it to your wifes, to your children, to your neighbors.
You will have to distribute it, because I refuse to take it.
And you cannot make me angry unless I accept your humiliation, your insult.
Ten years ago, I was not conscious; if somebody had insulted me, he would have lost his head immediately.
I had no idea that insulting me is his problem, and that I have nothing to do with it.
I can simply listen and go on my way."
-------------------------
I stopped being insane in 2009.

Bleed buckets on the floor.

I can only bleed if i am cut.
I have already observed and regard StepVeN's tactics are blunt and i've never been into self harm so i won't be cutting myself.

Whatever it takes to stop putting up your mind-shield to protect yourself. Let it all go...

Who stops putting up my mind shield, who let's it all go?
Oh...that would be me, i , my self. the vey thing you guys continue to fail to show me doesn't exist, but continue to confirm to me through your words that a self does exist.
And by fail i mean you give up.

Chance of a lifetime here. It could come again sometime, but since you never know....

But since you also never know, your declaration that it's a chance of a lifetime is merely a woeful salesperson's ploy pitched at the emotional level.
ie trying to induce fear by stating i may miss this once only opportunity.

Much love, even though it won't help a bit (and I really mean both of those things).
Lisa

Interesting, you regard love as a useless force.
And that you really mean both, that you love me much, but love is useless.

[quote="Lisa]Unleash yourself. Look. No self to unleash.[/quote]
Who unleashes themself? A self does.
Who looks? A self does.
Who sees there is no self to unleash? A self does.

Chris said it's not about removing nouns.
Looks to me that is all you people do here.
It's verbal slight of hand.
But then i haven't experienced the fury of StepVheN have i.

Opps! Forgot to tell you: 'No self to unleash' means one simply sees that the self that sees there's no self is seen to be an illusion, a labeled mind construct. Then easy or hard to ignore, depending.

Happy sailing AC.

Opps! Forgot to tell you: 'No self to unleash' means one simply sees that the self that sees there's no self is seen to be an illusion, a labeled mind construct. Then easy or hard to ignore, depending.

Happy sailing AC.

Thanks for what i regard as a confirmation that there is a self("one") that is required to see there is no self.
That i equate that to mean that "no self" is simply another program running upside one's mindtank.
Commonly referred to as a belief.
Take out the belief there is a self and replace it with a belief there is no self.

If one can observe there is no self, there needs to be an entity to do the observing.
Same one self, just running different programs in one's mind, which equates to a different perception.
Seriously, is this all this no self thing is.

And still, no guidance, as you guys call it, or exploration of why no self is associated with freedom and awakening.
And i also assume when you guys use freedom\liberation and awakening, you are meaning enlightenment.

Tnx about happy sailing Lisa, it's been wonderful sailing these last few years, but ho boy, some rather nasty storms for the previous 40 years.
But, ya gotta experience the storms to be able to understand them in order to find theier source thus remove it thus create a state of peace and calm...
freedom\liberation as you "no self" people call it.

To arrive at tranquility bay so to speak.
I know, not a good metaphor because it infers a destination is sought\desired and that once found the journey is over.
When all that is required and exists is within the journey.
The journey, life, simply being energy in constant fluid movement.