The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When one tries to see what is behind thought/feeling, behind conceptual understanding an emphatic emptiness is seen. Trying to find some tangible entity behind this reaches back to the same emptiness. Even though most people see that intellectually somehow it is not understood or known. LU helps to see beyond the conceptual understanding of no-self

What are you looking for at LU?
"I" hope LU will help with a guide to see without a shadow of doubt that "I" do not exist. I have already read the gateless gate and hopeful that "I" too could see with utmost clarity that I am a fiction

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that conditioned believes preventing "me" from clearly seeing will wither away as the guide who has seen the other shore ( no particular self) point me to that which is commonly held as not pointable.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a seeker through out my life ( i am 34 now). I did not go to anything specifically. Read a few books from osho, krishnamuthi, nisargadhatta etc. At one point in time it become clear that the instrument of thought is fallible and unrelaible. That took me to observe/ inspect "me" in greater detail.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hello Tintu,

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. As you have already read some of my guidings you know how I work, and what we explore.

My role is to point by using exercises and questions as a means for you to look, as it is the looking that brings about the realisation of 'no self' - so this exploration depends entirely upon how much effort you put into looking. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay

Hi Kay,

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

I have read all the links, I am all ears now.

Thanks
Tintu

Hi Tintu,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function. Glad to hear you are all ears! ;) Please read the following guidelines thoroughly.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like, and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions::

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

Hi Kay,

Please see my answers.

How will life change?

without the central hero("I/me") and other heroes, The story of life is seen as it is.

How will you change?

without the controller The strive for improvement, the frustration of failure, the burden of responsibility etc will diminish/disappear,
without so much internal conflicts, life would flow unfiltered and unhindered.
with the center removed, the whole deck of cards of the conceptual castle might come down.

What will be different?

The perspective shift will help to see the world as it is. so I expect everything to be the same, at the same time different.

What is missing?

maybe as a filmmaker sees the movie, and sees the frame, shot and camera instead of the seen. some drama might be missed.

Thanks
Tintu

I understood "what is missing" question as what is missing after realizing that there is no self. but now I re-read it understand that the question is about "what is missing now".

What is missing?

At the moment, I can see (experientially) that I am not the thoughts, not the feelings(this is a recent development to recognize that the sensation arising which is converted to anger by thought has nothing to do with anger). I am not clear how I am not the body experientially. intellectually I can see that the body is a concept but somehow it is not clearly seen (if a body is a conceptual entity why pain is only associated with a specific body?). Another thing is that even when it is understood that optical seeing or Actual seeing is seeing without labels, thought labels so fast that rarely the actual experiencing of the seen is experienced. it took me another thought to focus only on the optical vision of the world (say a flower). rarely while waking up from sleep abruptly in the middle of the night there were instances where I could see only colors and could not recognize them until the thought is fully operational (This is what I think and maybe plain wrong).

Hello Tintu

The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have about what this exploration will give you. An expectation is an idea that compares the current experience with an imagined future experience. If the current experience does not match the imagined this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated. Expectations hinder seeing what is actually appearing as opposed to what thoughts appear suggesting what is appearing and expectations can even blind side the fact that the realisation that there is no separate self has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. When expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, frustration etc can arise. Let me know what arises for you when you read my responses, as it is good to address them, if necessary, before we continue.

How will life change?

without the central hero("I/me") and other heroes, The story of life is seen as it is.

It is already seen as it is, the only difference is that the idea of it happening to an actual “I” is seen for the story it is. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening.

How will you change?

without the controller The strive for improvement, the frustration of failure, the burden of responsibility etc will diminish/disappear,
without so much internal conflicts, life would flow unfiltered and unhindered.
with the center removed, the whole deck of cards of the conceptual castle might come down.

There has NEVER been a separate self, so there has never been a ‘you’ who is/was the controller. Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

What will be different?

The perspective shift will help to see the world as it is. so I expect everything to be the same, at the same time different.

And how would this look exactly?

What is missing?

maybe as a filmmaker sees the movie, and sees the frame, shot and camera instead of the seen. some drama might be missed.

A dramatic story appears when it appears. There is no controlling what appears or what the seeming “I” appears in and thinks, says, does or feels. Does a character in a movie know what they are going to say or do from what moment to the next, or does it just simply unfold?

I am not clear how I am not the body experientially. intellectually I can see that the body is a concept but somehow it is not clearly seen (if a body is a conceptual entity why pain is only associated with a specific body?).

I guide to a structure. We will be looking at the body, but not at the beginning.

Actual seeing is seeing without labels, thought labels so fast that rarely the actual experiencing of the seen is experienced. it took me another thought to focus only on the optical vision of the world (say a flower). rarely while waking up from sleep abruptly in the middle of the night there were instances where I could see only colors and could not recognize them until the thought is fully operational (This is what I think and maybe plain wrong).

Being aware of actual experience has nothing to do with seeing without labels – that is an unreal expectation which also points to the idea of control. There is no thinker of thought. Thoughts simply appear. There is no one or no way of controlling what labels or thoughts appear or when they appear…be it simultaneously or not with what is seen. What you are describing is simply an experience that is happening as part of whatever unfolds in the story called life, however, labels and thoughts appear when they appear.

What are you looking for at LU?

"I" hope LU will help with a guide to see without a shadow of doubt that "I" do not exist. I have already read the gateless gate and hopeful that "I" too could see with utmost clarity that I am a fiction

There is an expectation here. Realising 'no self' happens, but here will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens. There is clear seeing that there is no self and in the next moment this clarity is muddied...all normal experiences. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Kay

Hi Kay,

Thanks for pointing out. Hope that some of my false beliefs will fall off during this discussion.
I hope I am not bothering you with further questions. as you mentioned before I understand that it is the seeing that liberates.

following is my replies and questions.

It is already seen as it is.

Being aware of actual experience has nothing to do with seeing without labels – that is an unreal expectation

I am really trying to understand this.
Maybe reading from various places before I am bogged down by the following idea,
on true realization, the thought (inner chatter) comes to an end (without any control). In that case, the seeing has to be literarily as it is (unfiltered by thought). This idea may be too farfetched.
Here as you pointed out, the intention is to see that the self is really a false belief.
In actual seeing, does one sees the experience and express that without the content of the thought?. In that case, the pure observation is already not distorted by the thought?. So the current idea I have is that as long as a gap of thought occurs naturally and a pure seeing happens only when the actual is seen.
Or is it that Actual seeing is possible even when thought is operating if one focuses attention only on senses?

There has NEVER been a separate self.

This statement gives tremors down my stomach. Elements of fear and excitement are seen. Thoughts are suddenly silent as if the statement consumed me.

What will be different?

The perspective shift will help to see the world as it is. so I expect everything to be the same, at the same time different.

And how would this look exactly?

when the “I” is understood as a false idea, what is seen is not in relation to the central me and hence different, but it was the same before ( just that everything was perceived in relation to “me”).

Does a character in a movie know what they are going to say or do from what moment to the next, or does it just simply unfold?

The character simply unfolds.

if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear

I did not understand it clearly. Do you mean conditioning is uncontrollable/happening by the self, and hence not owned by the self as is the case with thoughts?

Hello Tintu,

I hope I am not bothering you with further questions. as you mentioned before I understand that it is the seeing that liberates.

If you have questions about what I am pointing to, then please ask. But leave other questions aside for the time being. Many of the questions you have will be answered as we move through exploration. There will come a time where we will look at questions you may still have.

Being aware of actual experience has nothing to do with seeing without labels – that is an unreal expectation
I am really trying to understand this.
on true realization, the thought (inner chatter) comes to an end (without any control). In that case, the seeing has to be literarily as it is (unfiltered by thought). This idea may be too farfetched.

And trying to understand with thought won’t do anything. Hence the need to LOOK. All this will become clearer shortly. Thought does not come to an end. Thought is actual experience (AE), just as is colour, smell, taste, sensation and sound. Actual experience is everything except the CONTENT of thought, as thought, in an of itself, does not contain any actual experience. If it did, then you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’. As I said, this will become clearer. We will be looking at AE next.

The perspective shift will help to see the world as it is. so I expect everything to be the same, at the same time different.

And how would this look exactly?

when the “I” is understood as a false idea, what is seen is not in relation to the central me and hence different, but it was the same before ( just that everything was perceived in relation to “me”).

The idea that there is an “I” still appears. There has never been a separate “I” and yet the idea of an “I” has always appeared. Why would that change? When Santa Claus was seen to be a character and not real…what actually changed? Only your perception of him changed. Christmas still comes around, Santa is still seen on every street corner, gifts are still exchanged and Christmas Carols are still sung. In other words, life went on as usual and the seeing of Santa etc still happened, but did that make him real? All that happened is that there is now a knowing that Santa -what he is and the story about him, is just that…a story.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them. So, LOOKING’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in the current moment. It is no different to looking for your car keys when you think you have misplaced them. But instead of looking for car keys, you are looking at AE - the raw experience and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.




Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

Kay

Hi Kay,

The idea that there is an “I” still appears. There has never been a separate “I” and yet the idea of an “I” has always appeared. Why would that change?

Cool, something stand corrected at least in understanding.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

The Actual experience is only colour(smell,touch when experimented with a "real" apple) sensation and thoughts.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

In actual experience 'Apple' is not found. only the sensory perceptions about 'Apple' and thoughts are perceptible.

However, is an apple actually known?

it seems to be a concept stitched together by thought.
Apple is actually not known.

Thanks
Tintu

Hello Tintu,

However, is an apple actually known?

it seems to be a concept stitched together by thought.
Apple is actually not known.

Great! So when looking for the I...see if you can find an actual "I" in thought, smell, taste, sensation, sound or colour.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay

Hi Key,
I was mostly in the office, so these experiences are reported from the office environment.
I will try to do this experiment a bit more on my way back to home.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

seeing the screen, back portion of another screen, walls, cables, electronic devices - color
typing in the keyboard and clicking the mouse - touch
hearing the sound of key presses, mouse clicks and loud self-talk from a colleague - sound.
a colleague walking along the corridor and talking to someone - color and sound.
self-talk about what am i hearing and seeing - thought
self-talk about wanting to finish the committed work and time remaining to do that - thought, sensation (tinge of fear).
self-talk about what to write and whether the sentence is formed correctly - thought.
the sensation of a feeble fear when thought about what exactly is the sensation and whether I am expressing correctly - sensation and thoughts.


Washing hands, the sound of water falling, the sensation of water touching the hand - sound, sensations
looking at the mirror, seeing whether the hair is not untidy and setting it right - color, thought,touch
thinking whether this can be counted as the exercise - thought
thinking whether what is written is good enough - thought

colleagues discussing in a foreign language - sound
more typing and clicking - sound and touch
playing table football with colleagues, laughter, disappointment when failed, resolve to succeed again - sound,touch,color,sensation,thoughts.
eating a cookie left over in the canteen (while having a bad feeling about the football failures) - color, taste, thought

Thanks
Tintu

Hey Tintu,

Great looking and great examples. So please continue to look to see what actually IS, including thoughts and noticing what thoughts infer is appearing.

Another simple experiment to highlight the difference between actual experience and the stories thought tells about experience.

Look at some object(s) in the room.
Hold up "your" hand so the objects are now covered.
Notice that a thought may say there are objects hidden behind the hand.
In actual experience are there objects “hidden behind the hand”?

Let's begin to look at the nature of thought.

The following exercise is about becoming aware of, and observing all thoughts as they arise.

I want you to pretend that everything that your ‘mind is thinking’ ie EVERY thought that arises is being spoken out loud by a person following you around.
Let me know how you go and what you noticed.

Kay

In actual experience are there objects “hidden behind the hand”?

in Actual experience, only the "color of the hand" is seen. there is no hidden object in actual experience except the logical inference.
(The thought that if I move my hand out I would see the object would prove that the object existed when my hand covers the object is an inference). in case of a fan by my bedside which generated sound while hiding with the hand, I could see the color and hear the sound.
I noticed that when this is done to a toddler for the first time (some time ago), the toddler started laughing (possibly due to the new experience that something can be hidden and appear back)

I want you to pretend that everything that your ‘mind is thinking’ ie EVERY thought that arises is being spoken out loud by a person following you around.
Let me know how you go and what you noticed.

Thoughts come to awareness and then can be repeated. This means that I cannot repeat the content until the awareness of content takes place.
There are thoughts which arise out of nowhere (which feels completely out of control) and there are thoughts which seems to be self-driven (similar to start thinking about it, say asking a question how am I seeing, I am i thinking now etc).
while traveling in a train to work, noticing the trees and lakes, there seems to be a time of no thought (as if some knowledge of the trees and lakes are already there).
I am not even sure whether the labeling works faster than I can perceive or is it that there are no thoughts. but the feeling of seeing something new which is never seen before (or nothing to compare against) and seeing of something which is seen before is different, leading me to speculate that there may be some kind of pre-perceptive comparison going on. sometimes the thoughts are vague and sometimes they are clear. most of the time the start of it is not recognizable and the end of it (sometimes I keep wondering whether the thought has ended or something more to come :-)). sometimes there is a feeling that the clarity of a content of thought is not similar to the clarity of seeing other senses. sometimes the content of the thought has a pull that the thought that 'I should be able to repeat the thought' is consumed by the other thought.

In the train station, without even thinking I am avoiding collisions with people (not sure how that is happening, yet this was the case all the time).
without thinking my eyes are moving to pleasure-inducing sights.
In the lift to the office, the sensation of fear arises without even thinking about it (or is it that it happened so fast that it is not noticeable, not sure).

I am in the office now and will try to do this more, except when I am consumed by the work.

Hi Key,

I have continued with the "talking thoughts aloud" experiment.
it is not easy to follow the thought clearly when the body is in motion, especially when moving faster, or when focusing on something, working on something etc. there are moments of attention shifting to a self-conscious mode. otherwise, it works as if it is autonomous.

in general, the observation is that the quieter the place, the lesser the physical activity, there is a possibility for more attention to thought. in daily activities, the thought is sometimes fuzzy, sometimes clear, sometimes thought is conscious about itself etc. there is no notion of control with thoughts, it appears and disappears of its own, the starting and ending is mostly fuzzy and not recognizable. The only exception is when there is a gap (or a period of no thought or it seems so), the only thought which breaks that pattern is "whether I am thinking or not".
I came back home and sat in a quiet place for sometimes. in that environment thoughts are very rare and when looking for thoughts one forgets oneself, and even become aware of the prolonged silence only after I am out of that silence ( maybe that in silence one does not even understand that they are in silence). not even sure whether this is some kind of sleep :-).
but the differentiating factor is that when I hear a footstep or a sound I can wake up as if I am awake. not sure whether this means anything. maybe it is possible that I developed a method of deluding myself :-).

I am not sure what is the intention of this exercise. but I could manage to do only a few times to repeat what is conceived as thought.

Thanks
Tintu