The Gate

Hello,
I've read some threads in this forum. Very interesting.
I've also some doubts that it is possible to have a real realisation only in a few days or weeks but I would like to try.
Thank you!

Hi clear, can you tell me how you came to Liberation Unleashed and a bit about your journey thus far?

Cheers
Nona

Hello Nona,

I've seen the fb page of Liberation Unleashed.
In the last years I became very interested in non duality, red lots of book, attended satsangs.
Sometimes I had momentary realisations or better to say different perceptions of reality, like feeling the natural flow of life but only for moments, then separation arose again with all the longing for feeling the union again.
Thank you.

Thank you, clear.
Have you formed expectations of what liberation is going to be? What it should look like, feel like? How you will know when you have it?

Please describe in detail your expectations and what you want liberation to give you or do for you.

Cheers
Nona

Hello Nona,

what do I expect?
Well first of all to see through separation, like no me versus other.To see that there is no I in me and in others. To really embody this realisation not only in the mind. I think I would feel an expansion of identity, meaning I am not this person with his story , I am not limited to this identity. When the I is no more everything else comes alive.
I expect to fall in love with life as it is, even with painful stories. I expect to go with the flow of things. May be finally do something useful for other people, work for charities, be a volunteer, of course I could do this any moment but it would be contrived. I expect to have a real uncontrived will to do this. I expect that certain painful recurrent patterns of thoughts and emotions to slowly disappear or do not have the power they use to have.

How will you know when you have it?
Probably there will be a natural certainty inside. Something clicks independent from the fact that things might change or not.Honestly I don't know the answer to this question, I hope you can give me the answer.

Thank you!

Thank you for your considered reply!

Honestly I don't know the answer to this question

Frankly, its easier to approach from not knowing. Some of what you expect may occur. Our world, reality, does not alter with our liberation; only our perspective, our way of being in the world does.

And sometimes there is a click, sometimes an explosion! and sometimes just a smooth sweet slide that can go unnoticed by the newly liberated.

So we begin: Please tell me, in detail, what comes up for you when i say There is no 'you' in reality. None. Zero. Nada. No 'you' that runs 'your' life. That all of life is simply happening by itself without a 'you' at all.
Thoughts? Feelings? Fears? Joy? Write it all here.

love
Nona

When you say this I am not surprised because frankly the I is not felt all the time. The 'I' comes up when there are some reactions, for example something that it is considered an 'offence', who is offended? Me? The story about me? The story that other people have about me? Once again I don't know, it is not clear.
There is definitely a reaction of rage or self-pity, but I don't know why and how it is formed...if there is no me. Same with other emotions that might threaten some sort of physical and affective security. Who/what needs security?

If I look for a location of the 'me', it is not found. It is more an idea associated with an image of the face and the body. Looking in a mirror the association is immediate, this is me! Who/what else could it be?
These eyes, this face, this legs, this body so familiar, and this body is separated from other bodies,or so it looks. May be is not true, separation is just an optical illusion. Anyway there appear to be a world out there!
So when you say that there is no me, 'I' would like to verify this not only with the mind .
There is more joy than fear hearing this.

Thank you!

The 'I' comes up when there are some reactions, for example something that it is considered an 'offence',

So how does the "I" come up when there is a reaction? How does it show up? Can you see this "I" when it comes up? Where is this "I" located when it comes up?
You don't know, it's not clear...so look! Check it! Watch clearblu's reactions when it thinks it's offended; where is this "I"?

Who/what needs security?

Check it! Look behind the threat and see what is there to be threatened.
It is common to act to avoid threats; this time look it in the eye, check what it really is. Is a threat a frightening venomous or poisonous creature in reality?? or is it only a Thought?

If I look for a location of the 'me', it is not found. It is more an idea associated with an image of the face and the body.

Good Noticing!!! And what is an image in reality??
Think of a cup: its roundness, its curves, its shape, its decoration. Where is that cup? Can you fill or drink out of that cup?
No; it's an image. It's imaginary. Same as 'me'.

Looking in a mirror the association is immediate, this is me! Who/what else could it be?

It could be a reflection of a body. In reality.
Is 'me' located in the body then? Where?

These eyes, this face, this legs, this body so familiar, and this body is separated from other bodies

Absolutely. There are a multiplicity of bodies in this world: human, equine, feline, canine...each body going about living its life without a 'me' anywhere.

there appear to be a world out there!

And there is! Existence continues to exist once the illusion of self is seen through.

So when you say that there is no me, 'I' would like to verify this not only with the mind

It is an observable FACT that there is no 'you' in reality. The only 'you' you ever have is a thought.

So how does the "I" come up when there is a reaction? How does it show up? Can you see this "I" when it comes up? Where is this "I" located when it comes up? 
You don't know, it's not clear...so look! Check it! Watch clearblu's reactions when it thinks it's offended; where is this "I"?

It's a story, the story of me, the image on other's people mind/eyes.
What I really am ( for lack of better words) is a sense of existing which is not offended. Being, life it is fine. The supposed 'I' is the story. It looks like there is an entity inside the body but this cannot be real, so if it is not real must be a story, a very ingrained system of thoughts about this body/mind, memories, experiences, images of the body, other's people interaction, relationships. A story which cannot be found other then in the mind.But the story is very powerful.

Check it! Look behind the threat and see what is there to be threatened. 
It is common to act to avoid threats; this time look it in the eye, check what it really is. Is a threat a frightening venomous or poisonous creature in reality?? or is it only a Thought?

I can see that it is a thought, so now once again who/what believes in the story/ thoughts? Because you see Nona, for me it is not enough to see that the 'me' is a thought, a story made of thoughts. This is true if I check now, but still the story is believed. One cannot say, story is just a story, there is no I to be found, stop. Is this awakening? Frankly I see that there is no I,' I ' see that there is a story going on in the mind. Is this enough? Isn't awakening something more 'energetic'? Something felt within the all body. A revelation.
Even when the seeing that the me is just an idea, this idea/thought keep coming back again and again. It is not dissolved.Nothing changes. So what is this awakening?

I can see that it is a thought, so now once again who/what believes in the story/ thoughts?

Who/what believes cannot even be asked; to ask it presupposes a Believer.
When the story comes up for you, is there a Believer that believes it?? Or is it truer to say there is simply belief happening?

for me it is not enough to see that the 'me' is a thought, a story made of thoughts.
One cannot say, story is just a story, there is no I to be found, stop.

We are not looking for a new Belief here; we are pointing to an observable fact: there is no 'you' in reality. The only place you will find a 'you' is in story.

Frankly I see that there is no I,' I ' see that there is a story going on in the mind.

Please tell me how you see this? Describe your experience of seeing, in detail please.

Is this enough? Isn't awakening something more 'energetic'? Something felt within the all body. A revelation.

No. That is just a story you are believing about what awakening is. You failed to admit this expectation when i asked for them earlier, and now you are holding it up as a measuring stick for your anticipated awakening.

You have probably read about, heard about, the awakenings of spiritual teachers. You cannot have someone else's awakening; you can only have your own. Each awakening is unique; a few are explosions with all the bells and whistles, others are so incredibly subtle the liberated is unaware at first that it has occurred. Most of the awakenings i have seen fall somewhere in between.

Open your mind; if you wish to experience SEEing there is no 'you' in reality, i am here to point to that. If you believe you already have that, i cannot help you.
People routinely use the word "seeing" to mean "thinking". If you think there is no you, i can help you to physically SEE it. When you SEE there is no 'you', your world does not change; your experience in the world changes. Perception changes. You may then keep your stories or give them up; that is entirely your choice. i will say that choosing to see through our stories instead of believing them results in less stress and a more immediate experience of life.

Please go back and read my responses to your expectations. Then, if you wish to continue, answer my above questions. If you're convinced you have seen what i offer, then you are satisfied and no longer itch for freedom.

Hello Nona,

Open your mind; if you wish to experience SEEing there is no 'you' in reality, i am here to point to that. If you believe you already have that, i cannot help you. 
People routinely use the word "seeing" to mean "thinking". If you think there is no you, i can help you to physically SEE it. When you SEE there is no 'you', your world does not change; your experience in the world changes. Perception changes. You may then keep your stories or give them up; that is entirely your choice. i will say that choosing to see through our stories instead of believing them results in less stress and a more immediate experience of life.

I don't believe that I already have it, I was just asking.....
I'd like to have your help to physically SEE it.

Who/what believes cannot even be asked; to ask it presupposes a Believer. 
When the story comes up for you, is there a Believer that believes it?? Or is it truer to say there is simply belief happening?

Honestly I am not able to give an answer :-( may be I could say that a story is believed.

''Frankly I see that there is no I,' I ' see that there is a story going on in the mind''

Please tell me how you see this? Describe your experience of seeing, in detail please.

OK.
There is a body, there is a mind.
The body cannot be the self. Feet, legs, arms, eyes, hair, ears, these aren't a self/I,the body is composed by cells, things in the body happen, digestion, blood circulation, breathing, etc, it is an ongoing process.
The mind. The mind is thoughts, thoughts describe and label objects, experiences, feelings,constantly. No separate owner of the body and of the mind is found.
There is a sense of existing which is labelled I.
And then I don't know anything anymore.

Thank you for listening!

I'd like to have your help to physically SEE it.

i will do all i can to help!

Who/what believes cannot even be asked; to ask it presupposes a Believer.
When the story comes up for you, is there a Believer that believes it?? Or is it truer to say there is simply belief happening?

Honestly I am not able to give an answer :-( may be I could say that a story is believed.

A story is believed; that is passive, and this one's experience of life is that it is active. Belief is happening. Just as breathing is happening, typing is happening, reading is happening. These are actions. i suppose it could be argued that a breath is taken, a keyboard is typed upon, a screen is read; but then there is a tendency to ask "By whom?" which cannot be asked as it begs the question.

There is a body, there is a mind.
The body cannot be the self. Feet, legs, arms, eyes, hair, ears, these aren't a self/I,the body is composed by cells, things in the body happen, digestion, blood circulation, breathing, etc, it is an ongoing process.
The mind. The mind is thoughts, thoughts describe and label objects, experiences, feelings,constantly. No separate owner of the body and of the mind is found.
There is a sense of existing which is labelled I.
And then I don't know anything anymore.

Fair enough. And i tell you, this is not SEEing. This is Thinking. You Think there is no self—and that is a good start. We will leave thinking aside and move into direct experience.

You say

There is a sense of existing which is labelled I.

What is this sense of existing? How does it show up? How does it get labeled "I"?

Here is an experiment in sensation for you to do. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
What happened to the melon? And what about the sensation that was so believable?

A story is believed; that is passive, and this one's experience of life is that it is active. Belief is happening. Just as breathing is happening, typing is happening, reading is happening. These are actions.

You mean actions without a subject? Breathing it's ok , the action goes by itself ,but typing definitely appears that the hands stimulated by an impulse in the brain are following a command, the command is formed from a reaction to your post, and your post was read. I can also say reading is happening but this doesn't change the perception that this action is happening here, in this body/mind center.

 These are actions. i suppose it could be argued that a breath is taken, a keyboard is typed upon, a screen is read; but then there is a tendency to ask "By whom?" which cannot be asked as it begs the question.

 

I don't understand why it cannot be asked. What does it mean 'begs the question'?

(Nona, I am not writing this to go against you, I trust you. It is 'important' to me to question things otherwise beliefs are not really seen. I am questioning 'my' mind not 'yours')

What is this sense of existing? How does it show up? How does it get labeled "I"? 

sense of existing:
THERE IS SOMETHING HAPPENING: sounds, body sensation labelled like, feeling cold, needing to eat, feeling tired, sleepy, feeling the body on the bed, sights, objects appearing, there is a room, there is a computer, there are books.
There are thoughts happening: 'what do I need to do today?', 'may be I'll go for a walk, I'll call my friends” 'I'll clean the house', ' Wow Nona is so sure about her realisation..lucky her! :-)' …
So to sum it up: THERE IS ACTIVITY HAPPENING AND THERE IS AN AWARENESS OF THIS ACTIVITY HAPPENING, THIS AWARENESS, THIS KNOWING APPEARS TO BE LOCATED WITHIN THIS BODY/MIND, A CENTER WHERE THIS ACTIVITY IS PERCEIVED, AND THIS CENTER GETS LABELLED I.

Here is an experiment in sensation for you to do. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?
Now open your eyes. 
What happened to the melon? And what about the sensation that was so believable?

Gosh it is not easy for me to do this exercise, difficult to concentrate. I didn't think it could be difficult. Try again.
The watermelon is not there when I open my eyes, it was imagined by the mind. But the sensation in the hands persisted for some more seconds after his absence was seen. Even now, after a few minutes the mind can make up the sensation in the hands again. Like if I think at the taste of chocolate, some kind of sensation arise in the mouth even if the chocolate is not there.
Thank you again for your time and willingness to help 'me'.
ps English is not my first language so forgive any mistakes. When I write in capital letter I do it for me, to be more clear about what I write.

Hello clear!

You mean actions without a subject? Breathing it's ok , the action goes by itself

All actions happen without a subject. You can see this by watching your daily life carefully, with an open mind. The action occurs, then, afterward, the mind labels it "I did it". Check it!! Watch your actions without the story of causation!

typing definitely appears that the hands stimulated by an impulse in the brain are following a command, the command is formed from a reaction to your post, and your post was read.

The keyword here is "appears". The appearance is the story we tell about the action. The action is real—typing is real and reading is real—but the story is just thoughts about the actions.

Do you know what Perception is and how it works? It's very interesting. Perception is a collection of memories that massages the data received when a stimulus occurs before the data go to the brain for processing. Perception is that Frame of Reference, the Bias we all develop that judges and alters our experiences. And because every stimulus creates data that are Perceived before being sent to the brain for processing, we can never actually see reality for what it is—our perception will always shape our experience to fit our memories.

I don't understand why it cannot be asked. What does it mean 'begs the question'?

The question "by whom or what is the screen read, the keyboard typed on, the breath taken?" cannot be asked because it assumes there is a Reader, a Typer, a Breather. To beg the question means to 'answer' the question with the assumption the question is based on. It's what is called a circular argument, and is a fallacy, a 'bad' argument. It cannot be asked because there is no one reading, typing, breathing. Reading, typing and breathing are just happening with no one in control.

You can check this. Who breathes when you are thinking about something other than breathing? Breathing just happens, and it continues whether 'you' are aware of it or not! When you are focused elsewhere, when you are sleeping, breathing continues to occur without a Breather. Same with walking! You go out your door and keep going; 'you' don't send signals to the knee telling it to straighten, to the fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibres telling them to lengthen and shorten, to the hips to shift the centre of gravity first to one side then to the other... there is no one in control of walking; it happens spontaneously without a 'you'. Check it!!!

(Nona, I am not writing this to go against you, I trust you. It is 'important' to me to question things otherwise beliefs are not really seen. I am questioning 'my' mind not 'yours')

That's fine, and i will answer as long as it does not distract us from our goal. And there is no 'my' mind and 'your' mind here.

sense of existing:
THERE IS SOMETHING HAPPENING:

Please re-read this a hundred thousand times. This is IT. There is something happening. All the rest is story.

There are thoughts happening

Yes and they arise all by themselves; they arise, we notice them, then we decide we are thinking them.

Wow Nona is so sure about her realisation..lucky her!

It's not luck at all!!! i SAW with the two eyes in this body's head that there is no 'me' anywhere i thought there was. I SAW how mind labels experience and makes up a story called Nona. Once seen, this cannot be unseen.

THERE IS ACTIVITY HAPPENING AND THERE IS AN AWARENESS OF THIS ACTIVITY HAPPENING, THIS AWARENESS, THIS KNOWING APPEARS TO BE LOCATED WITHIN THIS BODY/MIND, A CENTER WHERE THIS ACTIVITY IS PERCEIVED, AND THIS CENTER GETS LABELLED I.

How does the label "I" get onto the activity that happens?
And do you always trust appearances?? If the knowing appears to be located within a body, does that mean it is?? What about the melon?

The watermelon is not there when I open my eyes, it was imagined by the mind. But the sensation in the hands persisted for some more seconds after his absence was seen. Even now, after a few minutes the mind can make up the sensation in the hands again. Like if I think at the taste of chocolate, some kind of sensation arise in the mouth even if the chocolate is not there.

Yes indeed. And sense of self works the same way. We imagine a self, feel it strongly; yet when we open our eyes, it is nowhere to be SEEN.

Check it! Close your eyes, and locate the self, the "I", "me". With your eyes closed, lift your hand and Point to the place where that self is located. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
Tell me what the finger is pointing to. What exactly do you see with your eyes??

All actions happen without a subject. You can see this by watching your daily life carefully, with an open mind. The action occurs, then, afterward, the mind labels it "I did it". Check it!! Watch your actions without the story of causation!

This is interesting: 'Watch your actions without the story of causation'. I wish I could.
In the present moment, without thoughts, there is no causation.
Sounds are just sounds, things are just things, actions are just actions,there is what we call life with its infinite display.
The story is always lurking: 'oh yes but what about this body here, it was born, it was caused. What about this book here, it was bought, it was caused to be here, what about that sound caused by a car passing by , what about eating , feeling hungry was a causation for the action to happen ….. etc.

typing definitely appears that the hands stimulated by an impulse in the brain are following a command, the command is formed from a reaction to your post, and your post was read.

The keyword here is "appears". The appearance is the story we tell about the action. The action is real—typing is real and reading is real—but the story is just thoughts about the actions. 

Can it be that some thoughts refer to real things?

Do you know what Perception is and how it works? It's very interesting. Perception is a collection of memories that massages the data received when a stimulus occurs before the data go to the brain for processing. Perception is that Frame of Reference, the Bias we all develop that judges and alters our experiences. And because every stimulus creates data that are Perceived before being sent to the brain for processing, we can never actually see reality for what it is—our perception will always shape our experience to fit our memories.

Sorry Nona, this is too difficult to understand with my English, could you explain it again please? I thought that perceptions had something to do with senses. Feeling cold/hot, sights, hearing. Are you saying that perceptions are the story... a bit confusing here.

You can check this. Who breathes when you are thinking about something other than breathing? Breathing just happens, and it continues whether 'you' are aware of it or not! When you are focused elsewhere, when you are sleeping, breathing continues to occur without a Breather. Same with walking! You go out your door and keep going; 'you' don't send signals to the knee telling it to straighten, to the fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibres telling them to lengthen and shorten, to the hips to shift the centre of gravity first to one side then to the other... there is no one in control of walking; it happens spontaneously without a 'you'. Check it!!!

That's ok, I can see that most actions happen automatically and with no causation: breathing, sleeping, scratching the head. Here a couple of observations:
1)What about the intention to do an action. Reading happens and also the intention to read happens? It must be so if there is no me, it must be all a chain of stimuli, reactions, actions, and all goes on by itself with thoughts labelling at the same time or a few seconds later.
Walking in his mechanism happens and the intention to walk happens too? same story as above, this looks like causation to me.
2)When I learn new movements, like learning a new dance or a physical exercise there is an attention to the single movements, a kind of control on how to move. My doubt is what is this attention? Where it comes from? Just brain receiving information? And the brain is not my brain, it's a brain with no owner. So I am not, the brain is.
The most difficult thing is the death of the observer. I can almost process all the other stuff, like no controller, no thinker, no owner, but the observer is tough! The observer is here, is a center from which life is observed., or woud me more exact to say that eyes are observing and brain labelling.
Isn't the body/mind a center, even if without 'me' inside?
Sorry for being all over the places. I trust your clarity.

sense of existing:
THERE IS SOMETHING HAPPENING:

Please re-read this a hundred thousand times. This is IT. There is something happening. All the rest is story. 

I will re-read this. Sounds good to me too. Simple but honest.

There are thoughts happening
Yes and they arise all by themselves; they arise, we notice them, then we decide we are thinking them.

 

Ok. thoughts arise via stimuli. No one is having a stimulus, there is just a stimulus. There is no one thinking.

It's not luck at all!!! i SAW with the two eyes in this body's head that there is no 'me' anywhere i thought there was. I SAW how mind labels experience and makes up a story called Nona. Once seen, this cannot be unseen.

:-)

THERE IS ACTIVITY HAPPENING AND THERE IS AN AWARENESS OF THIS ACTIVITY HAPPENING, THIS AWARENESS, THIS KNOWING APPEARS TO BE LOCATED WITHIN THIS BODY/MIND, A CENTER WHERE THIS ACTIVITY IS PERCEIVED, AND THIS CENTER GETS LABELLED I.

How does the label "I" get onto the activity that happens?

It doesn't get into the activity that happens,'I' am the awareness of the activity that happens. Once again the observer.
Yes exactly it doesn't mean the I am there. In fact I don't think I am there. It's not even logical that there must be a me. So the awareness is not me....

Yes indeed. And sense of self works the same way. We imagine a self, feel it strongly; yet when we open our eyes, it is nowhere to be SEEN.

 

In fact I cannot find it. But (sorry for the but :-) ) the illusion persists and looks real. I feel like I am under an hypnosis and I know that I am under an hypnosis. I am not capable to SEE that I don't exist.
How frustrating is that? It feels like this thing is under my nose and for some reasons I keep overlooking it.

Check it! Close your eyes, and locate the self, the "I", "me". With your eyes closed, lift your hand and Point to the place where that self is located. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
Tell me what the finger is pointing to. What exactly do you see with your eyes??

The illusion when I close my eyes and point the finger is that I am somewhere inside the head,but of course when I open my eyes there is only a head in reality, and no chances I guess to find 'me' inside.

I don't exist. I don't exist. I don't exist. I am an illusion. I am a projection of thoughts. I am not the observer, there is no observer. 'I' is a word. 'I' has no substance, it doesn't refer to anything solid, real. 'I' am made of thoughts.
'' We are Such stuff as dreams are made on'' - Shakespeare

Do you think that it might work to repeat this mantra? :-) just joking!