The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The idea of an inherent self cannot stand up to investigation as if you break down experience into its constituent parts of sensation, sight, smell, taste, sound and thought or into the 5 aggregates of materiality, feeling, cognition, volition and consciousness, no self can be found as it is not within any one of the categories nor the sum of all.

What are you looking for at LU? I am curious.
To end the suffering inherent in clinging to separate self.
To directly experience the knowledge of no-self and allow that to be the answer to all my questions of what happens after realisation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That the guide will highlight the ways in which my understanding of no self is limited by directing me back to aspects of my direct/actual experience that will help me see through my attachment to the idea of a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Mostly Goenka Vipassana meditation courses and other Buddhist meditation practices and teachings.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

Hi!

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. My role is to point, but it is up to you to do the looking as you have to see what is being pointed at for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)

With love, Kay

Hi Kay

Thank you for offering to be my guide! I really appreciate you taking the time to do this for me and others.

I have read/watched all the above links so ready to get started!

Love, Anna

Hello Anna,

Thank you for reading the disclaimer and other links.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour and observed thought. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration;
in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay

How will life change

Life won't change but I imagine the experience of life will be altered and as a result my thoughts and actions.

How will you change?

I imagine being able to see things in a new way, as they really are, and feel more able respond to life in ways that do not recreate old patterns.

What will be different

A sense of internal spaciousness that might enable me to make choices in my thinking habits and actions that are more ethical and less self-centred.

What is missing?

Peace. Freedom from the suffering that comes with attachment to the idea of my self, my things, my ideas etc.

Hello Anna,

Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is liberation” or “this is not” onto the experience.

But you don’t have to do anything with these expectations. Don’t try to push them away, change them, manipulate them. Don’t do anything with them, don’t touch them, just observe them. These are nothing more than the content of arising thoughts, here and now. That’s all; nothing more, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.

How will life change

Life won't change but I imagine the experience of life will be altered and as a result my thoughts and actions.

“Imagine” is a good word because it points to something that will happen in a future. Everything already IS. There is no past, present or future, there is only ever the HereNow. Yes, perception changes, but paradoxically it changes for no one/no thing!

How will you change?

I imagine being able to see things in a new way, as they really are, and feel more able respond to life in ways that do not recreate old patterns.

There has never been a separate self. Not one yesterday, not one who is reading this now and there won’t be one tomorrow either. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after realising there is no separate self.

What will be different

A sense of internal spaciousness that might enable me to make choices in my thinking habits and actions that are more ethical and less self-centred.

There is no ‘you’ who is choosing/deciding/controlling/thinking anything….an illusion is an illusion. A mirage of an oasis in a desert, is just that…a mirage, it cannot provide water, shade or shelter.

This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

What is missing?

Peace. Freedom from the suffering that comes with attachment to the idea of my self, my things, my ideas etc.

The seeking is what falls away. Peace and freedom already are, it is just the beliefs around what they should look like and the idea that there is a ‘you’ that life is happening to that obscures the reality of what already IS. As I said above, this is only a beginning and not an ending and it is the continual investigation into beliefs that will need to happen, so that the obscured peace and freedom that already IS, is realised.

What are you looking for at LU? I am curious.

To end the suffering inherent in clinging to separate self.
To directly experience the knowledge of no-self and allow that to be the answer to all my questions of what happens after realisation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

That the guide will highlight the ways in which my understanding of no self is limited by directing me back to aspects of my direct/actual experience that will help me see through my attachment to the idea of a separate self.

There is no attachment to ‘your’ stories or to the story about an “I” labelled Anna.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours

With love, Kay

Hey Kay

Sorry for slow response. Guess I wasn't quite sure how - I have some questions.

Yes, perception changes, but paradoxically it changes for no one/no thing!

Could you say a bit more about this, that perception changes for no one or no thing?

There has never been a separate self. Not one yesterday, not one who is reading this now and there won’t be one tomorrow either. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after realising there is no separate self.

There is no ‘you’ who is choosing/deciding/controlling/thinking anything….an illusion is an illusion. A mirage of an oasis in a desert, is just that…a mirage, it cannot provide water, shade or shelter.

I really struggle with this - there is the thought "it can't be so because how would anything work or get done?"

There is no attachment to ‘your’ stories or to the story about an “I” labelled Anna.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours

I can see the logic/truth of this but finding it hard to connect with on an experiential level.

I was sitting on the sofa in the kitchen earlier and the thought came:
"That's a beautiful light on the wall"
Then another thought:
"Maybe I should go outside. The sun is out after two days of snow." (And probably a whole bunch of other thought rolled off and back into this thought quickly).
So I asked where is this "I" that "should" go outside, that is having these thoughts. I became aware of the sensations of lying on the sofa, hearing the sounds of the stove and plates, seeing the familiar room, smelling a bit the lunch we'd eaten. I know on the one hand that these are not me, but there definitely is a habitual (not entirely conscious) thought that I am the sum of these sense experiences or the owner of them.

Love, Anna

Hey Anna,

The purpose of looking at expectations and my responses to expectations is to see what arises for you. Resistance, anger, fear, frustration etc will appear and they will appear again. It is just to be aware of when they arise. When they appear let me know so that we can look at them together.

How did you feel when you read my responses in my last post?

Yes, perception changes, but paradoxically it changes for no one/no thing!

Could you say a bit more about this, that perception changes for no one or no thing?

This will become clearer as we start to explore the false idea of there being a separate self, as will the idea about choosing/deciding/controlling/thinking.


Okay, so let’s begin to explore! And the first step is learning to LOOK. Looking is the key….not thinking. Looking isn’t difficult. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking’ is just plain looking to what is here, directly, right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is really present (actual experience) and always has been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking at actual experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.




Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

With love, Kay

Hi Kay

How did you feel when you read my responses in my last post?

When I read your last post I felt mostly confusion about what you wrote and about what I should do next and with that confusion and not understanding came a little frustration and resistance.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is colour and the thought 'apple'. 'Apple' can only be found as the content of a thought. Is the thought actual experience but the content of the thought not AE?

However, is an apple actually known?

The apple is not actually known, only the thought 'apple' and the colour, sensation and smell labelled apple are known.

Love, Anna

Hi Anna,

How did you feel when you read my responses in my last post?

When I read your last post I felt mostly confusion about what you wrote and about what I should do next and with that confusion and not understanding came a little frustration and resistance.

My apologies for that, I should have said that my responses were a starting point to guiding but I wanted you to become aware of what arises when reading my responses ie fear, anger, etc.

However, that won’t be the only time that you feel confused, not understanding, frustration and resistance. But as I said in my last post, when they become intense or get to the stage where they begin to interfere with looking, then let me know so we can look at them together.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is colour and the thought 'apple'. 'Apple' can only be found as the content of a thought. Is the thought actual experience but the content of the thought not AE?

Lovely! The content of thought is more thought. Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If the content of thought actually contained experience, then every time the thought ‘sweet’ appeared it would taste sweet, and every time the thought ‘water’ appeared, you would get wet and every time the thought ‘fire’ appeared you would get burned! All thought point to fantasy UNLESS it is pointing to AE, for example sensation “brrbrr” = thought "cold".

However, is an apple actually known?

The apple is not actually known, only the thought 'apple' and the colour, sensation and smell labelled apple are known.

Yes…right on! :)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.


With love, Kay

However, that won’t be the only time that you feel confused, not understanding, frustration and resistance. But as I said in my last post, when they become intense or get to the stage where they begin to interfere with looking, then let me know so we can look at them together.

I will let let you know!

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go

Seeing a lit candle - image
Thoughts about candle/light - thought

Holding and drinking cup of tea - taste labelled tea, sensation of heat, sound labelled drinking, image labelled mug of tea
Thoughts about drinking tea - thought

Thought about making porridge - thought
Measuring oats and water - image, sound, sensation, thought
Stirring porridge - sensation, image, thought
Porridge simmering - sound, image, thought
Pouring porridge into bowl - sensation, image,,sound, thought
Eating porridge - taste, image, thought

Seeing cat - image
Cat walking on me - sensation
Cat purring. - sound
Thought about cat - thought

And more!

It's interesting to break down the actual experience and write it in slightly different ways. Image and thought seem to be at the forefront in a way. I found it a little difficult to remember and slow down enough or bring enough awareness to what I was doing to look at my actual experience like this. When I did manage to do that more fully it was accompanied by a feeling of curiousness/strangeness that also felt pleasant.

With love,

Anna

Hey Anna,

Nice job of breaking activities into AE! :)

It's interesting to break down the actual experience and write it in slightly different ways. Image and thought seem to be at the forefront in a way. I found it a little difficult to remember and slow down enough or bring enough awareness to what I was doing to look at my actual experience like this. When I did manage to do that more fully it was accompanied by a feeling of curiousness/strangeness that also felt pleasant.

Yes, colour and thought seem to be the prevalent experiences that are always there. Continue doing this exercise for the next few days so that it becomes clear what AE is with just noticing what thought says AE is! :)

So, let's look at the nature of thought.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?


Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look very carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

With love, Kay

Hey Kay

Now I am confused! I wrote a reply to your last questions yesterday afternoon and could swear that I'd seen it posted! Oh well, I will have another go now. I actually came online to write a follow up response.

I've just been meditating, being aware of thoughts and reflecting on the questions and yesterday's answers which I didn't feel were complete.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to come from/triggered by/bounce off various inputs, e.g. sound, colour, taste, smell, other thoughts.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I try and have the sense that I can direct a sort of general theme or starting point but have minimal or perhaps zero control over individual thoughts.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I don't think so

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yeah. There seems to be a sequence or that a thought takes content from previous thought but the actual experience is that there are thoughts and then other thoughts come saying 'this makes sense because...'. I guess that effects my answer to the second question, and maybe the first.

My experience meditating on this tonight went something like:
Thought about thoughts saying 'there is a sequence to thoughts' just being other thoughts
Thought that the 'I' thinking is another thought/label
Thought that the thoughts continuing to arise are thoughts that reference or are dependent upon the 'I' thought
Thought that If all thought explaining experience is just thought and not actual experience, what is actual experience?
Physical sensations in my body labelled 'happiness'
Sensation of face muscles smiling, thought about smiling
Sensations and sound of laughing and thoughts about laughing
Thought about what you wrote about conditioning not belonging to us and
Thought that conditioning can't belong to me if the 'I' it would belong to is only a thought

I feel like there was more but it's very late and can't remember well now.

Love, Anna

Hey Anna,

Now I am confused! I wrote a reply to your last questions yesterday afternoon and could swear that I'd seen it posted! Oh well, I will have another go now. I actually came online to write a follow up response.

Yes, for some reason this happens now and again. I write everything in Word and then copy and paste it to the forum thread.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to come from/triggered by/bounce off various inputs, e.g. sound, colour, taste, smell, other thoughts.

If you ignore sounds and other ‘external’ input, have another look and notice if you can see where they are coming from and going to.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I try and have the sense that I can direct a sort of general theme or starting point but have minimal or perhaps zero control over individual thoughts.

And is not “I try and have the sense that I can direct a sort of general theme or starting point” just another thought?

Where is the “I” that can do this? In sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation, where is this “I”?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I don't think so

I want you to be sure…so have another look please.

Think of a 2-digit number. Could you have made a different number appear at that exact moment instead?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yeah. There seems to be a sequence or that a thought takes content from previous thought but the actual experience is that there are thoughts and then other thoughts come saying 'this makes sense because...'. I guess that effects my answer to the second question, and maybe the first.

Yes, nice noticing! So have another look at Q1 and Q2 and let me know what you find.

Thought that the 'I' thinking is another thought/label

Terrific! Yes!

Thought that If all thought explaining experience is just thought and not actual experience, what is actual experience?

Actual experience is everything (including the face value of thought), except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thought!

See the exercise below.

Thought that conditioning can't belong to me if the 'I' it would belong to is only a thought

Yes, exactly!



Here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?


Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


With love, Kay

Hi Kay

If you ignore sounds and other ‘external’ input, have another look and notice if you can see where they are coming from and going to.

They seem to come out of nothingness and go back into it.

And is not “I try and have the sense that I can direct a sort of general theme or starting point” just another thought?

Where is the “I” that can do this? In sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation, where is this “I”?

Yes, it is just another thought. There is no 'I' in actual experience.

Think of a 2-digit number. Could you have made a different number appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope.

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

I can't physically grasp the cup. There is only a mental image of the cup and as the cup is the content of the mental image it is not 'real' and can't be found in actual experience.

The thoughts and mental images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yes I can see this.

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Often I can predict something is going to happen - an example thought, 'I heard the car five minutes ago so Alex is probably walking down by the storeroom and might come into the kitchen any moment'. Even if Alex was walking by the storeroom as I had the thought, it is not really happening. Until she actually walks into the kitchen and I see image labelled 'Alex' or sound labelled 'door opening', the only actual experience is of thought not of Alex arriving.

Feeling the warmth of the sun on my face there is the thought 'this is very pleasant'. The thought of 'pleasant' is not actual experience of the suns warmth. I am wondering if that doesn't mean there isn't a real pleasant experience but just that the thought about it is removed from the direct experience of it.

Love, Anna