The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I imagine it means that concepts with which I have always viewed the world in terms of what it is or isn’t, or others in relationship to myself, will be fundamentally challenged in pursuit of a deeper truth.

What are you looking for at LU?
I was directed here by a friend who has helped me cultivate a daily practice of meditation. Through this practice I have become more aware of my emotions and have experienced a comparatively profound period of spirtual growth in my life. I expressed an interest for further guidance and was directed here.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m honestly not sure what to expect! However, my conversations with those who are experienced in developing a stronger sense of spirituality have generally been short and very direct, dense with brief and instructive advice which requires me to spend time honing my daily practice. I have done well with this framework.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a 41 year old man. Having been raised in the Roman Catholic tradition my religious background is largely what you might expect. I have long read texts on Christian philosophy and identity. For the past year I have been practicing meditation, accelerating to a daily pace in the past two months. This has stirred something beautiful inside of me which has brought new meaning and questions to my life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Beatrice,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This exploration uses experiential exercises and pointed questions so that you can LOOK and find the answers for yourself. This is not about discovering what you are. It is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)

Love, Kay

Hi Kay,

Thank you so much for guiding me! My real name is Jeremy and I'm very optimistic about the path ahead.

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get this party started! :)

I can confirm I have read the documents and am ready to party!

Jeremy

Hey Jeremy,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers give, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? Looking isn’t difficult. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking’ is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is really present (actual experience) and always has been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking at actual experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration;
in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay

Thank you Kay!

How will life change?

I'm not one to say how my life will change, though I hope to have a new perspective and awareness of changes which may occur.

How will you change?

In the short term I intend to be a looker, an observant one, willing to entertain new ideas. The long term is too vague but I am seeking a greater deal of general awareness.

What will be different?

I find wisdom on this site in the writings and videos others have posted, as well as my own personal observations of those who have successfully crossed the gate. I hope to gain a different understanding of my present reality which is more in line with that of yours.

What is missing?

I experience suffering and attachment frequently. I am missing the remedy.

Sincerely,
Jeremy

Hey Jeremy,

Okay, you say there are no expectations, and that is okay. They will pop up during our exploration!

First off we become aware of actual experience (AE), which is also becoming aware of how to LOOK.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking at actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

With love, Kay

Kay -

Thank you for the questions. I must say that yesterday in the evening I had a very interesting experience. I was laying down, reading through the forums and watching LU videos, when I decided to put the laptop down and truly entertain the idea of a life without self. I asked, "If there was no self, what would I see?" Shortly thereafter I began to sense something different about the world, this idea of experiencing life directly throughout the filter of self, lead to an experience of vivid awareness. I had to stand up and walk around. I went to my wife and oldest son, who were working on a science project at the time. I commented on how great it looked and noticed my comment wasn't gratuitous blather- it genuinely looked great! And I understood the charts and graphs and data for what they were: my capacity for understanding had not diminished but rather seemed augmented, questioned, vivid, more real.

From there I put my kids to bed, read a story to them, and observed the sensations throughout. I could sense my son's awareness, the books on the floor, the warmth of the light in the room, everything seemed much more connected. And the experience of reading aloud to him was something I cannot express in words, but altogether new and refreshing. At one point my son got up unexpectedly to put something away and, watching him go by, I realized that I don't really have control over anything and that is OK. It probably just means my experience of the world has been clouded by lesser assumptions in the past.

Initially there was some concern that I may have screwed my brain up for good, but I quickly settled in and the changes have been welcome ever since. I stayed up for a few more hours exploring my own perceptions about things, speaking to a few people, engaging in prayer and quiet meditation, each experience understood in the context of a new light. I woke up this morning feeling very much at peace.

I think I have much to learn but I wanted to share this story.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

My senses are telling me there is an apple there, and if I were to look at an actual apple I would say that it is real, though I would accept challenges to this statement. IE, the apple may not be real if there is no associated experience.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Yes, I have experienced eating, tasting, loving, smelling, and picking apples in the past. I ate one yesterday and can recall its texture, taste, and feeling quite vividly.

However, is an apple actually known?

There will forever be infinite mysteries to the apple. I have an idea of its past and future, but I do not know these things. I can experience it in the present and recall memories from the past, but I do not know it other than that it can lead to a new experience (by eating it or doing something else with it).

Hey Jeremy,

I am a no nonsense guide, so with that said I am straight to the point and can come across as abrupt and callous, however, this is not the case. My straight forwardness comes from a place of love as my desire is for you to have the realisation that there is no separate self. So my role is to point as clearly as possible, so that you can look at what I am pointing at and get a clear picture (realisation) of what actually IS, as opposed to thoughts stories about what IS.

Any seeming experience, like the one you wrote about, is just that. It is an experience appearing, but the realisation of no separate self is not about altered states of the mind or experiences. That is actually seeking. There is no place or state to reach, it already IS. And this is what this exploration is about, for you to see this, and through this seeing comes the realisation. The idea that seeing through the separate self will bring altered states of mind, experiences, or changes in life is an expectation, and expectations can be an obstacle to seeing.

LOOKING is not the same as seeking. Seeking is always towards something that is not present, or trying to get away from something that is present. Looking is investigating what is present; it's for no reason other than itself. It's done for its own sake. If you're expecting something from LOOKING, then you're not LOOKING, you're seeking for what you expect LOOKING will give you.

For the time that we are doing this exploration together, I would also like you to stop watching LU videos and reading other threads on the forum. I would just like you to concentrate on your thread and to what I am pointing to. All guides, guide differently and I don’t want you to become confused.

Initially there was some concern that I may have screwed my brain up for good, but I quickly settled in and the changes have been welcome ever since. I stayed up for a few more hours exploring my own perceptions about things, speaking to a few people, engaging in prayer and quiet meditation, each experience understood in the context of a new light. I woke up this morning feeling very much at peace.

And peace is something that comes and goes, just as is happiness, sadness, anger, clarity, confusion, doubt and so on. They are simply appearances that come and go. There is no state of permanent peace. That would be another expectation.

All that you wrote about the apple are thoughts ABOUT an apple, and thoughts are actual experience of thought, and NOT the actual experience (AE) of an apple. The face value of thought is (AE) of thought, but the content of thought is pure story. In not reading the exercise carefully and thoroughly, instead of seeing what it was pointing at/to, you went to thought and thoughts are not the tool to use for this exploration.

Shifting from thinking to looking/noticing can be frustrating and require some practice. Try leaving expectations about how life/you will be to the side. Expectations are thoughts about how things can be in an imagined future. And thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found is actual experience (AE) which is simply smell, taste, sound, colour, sensation and thought.

Please take your time and do this exercise several times while looking carefully.

If you have an ‘apple’ or any other piece of fruit or even a piece of cheese or chocolate will do….go get it and then place it in front of you on the table.

Now LOOK carefully.

1. The image of the ‘apple’ is the actual experience (AE) of colour and NOT the AE of an apple. The shape referred to as ‘apple’ is just different shades and patterns of colour. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the colour.

Does the colour itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?


2. Now, pick up the ‘apple’ and close the eyes. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and of ‘hands’ and just focus on the sensation.

Does the sensation itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?

3. Now, take a bite of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the taste.

Does taste itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?

4. Now, have a smell of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the smell.

Does smell itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?

5. Now, listen to the sound of the ‘crunch of an apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the sound.

Does sound itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?

6. So now look at the label ‘apple. Or the thought “I am looking at and eating an apple”.

Does the label itself, or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’?

So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’ or what is actually appearing is label, colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound + thoughts about an ‘apple’?

In actual experience (AE) is an 'apple' actually known?

With love, Kay

Hi Kay,

I am a no nonsense guide, so with that said I am straight to the point and can come across as abrupt and callous, however, this is not the case. My straight forwardness comes from a place of love as my desire is for you to have the realisation that there is no separate self. So my role is to point as clearly as possible, so that you can look at what I am pointing at and get a clear picture (realisation) of what actually IS, as opposed to thoughts stories about what IS.

Acknowledged.

For the time that we are doing this exploration together, I would also like you to stop watching LU videos and reading other threads on the forum.

I will comply.

Does the colour itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?

The color is just that, hues of red and gold, some brown. It knows nothing of an 'apple'. Without any preconceived ideas it is not known that these colors are that of an 'apple'.

Does the sensation itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?

It is cold, a bit hard, rounded in places. I feel a bristle in some areas. These are just sensations, and without any preconceived notions there is nothing that is known by the sensation that this is an 'apple'.

Does taste itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?

I feel the juices flow across my tongue and experience sweetness, and a soft texture. I sense hunger rising. Without any preconceived ideas it is not known that this is an 'apple'.

Does smell itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?

This one is harder. Still, the smell ultimately does not give rise to the notion that this is an 'apple' outside of any preconceived ideas.

Does sound itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?

I bite into the apple and listen, there is the sound of crunching. It is not known that this is the sound of an apple.

Does the label itself, or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’?

The label itself, the word 'apple', and even the thought or imagination of such, does not intrinsically know anything about an 'apple'.

In actual experience (AE) is an 'apple' actually known?

It is not. There are no actual experiences of an 'apple' actually known, only what my senses and thoughts present in that moment.

Thanks,
Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

Nice job looking….thank you! :)

For the time that we are doing this exploration together, I would also like you to stop watching LU videos and reading other threads on the forum.

I will comply.

Thank you, that is appreciated.

Does the colour itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?

The color is just that, hues of red and gold, some brown. It knows nothing of an 'apple'. Without any preconceived ideas it is not known that these colors are that of an 'apple'.

Wonderful! Colour/image is AE of colour and not AE of an apple.
It is only thought that points to colour and then labels it ‘apple’.
So the AE of ‘apple’ is thought and not the AE an apple.

Does the sensation itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?

It is cold, a bit hard, rounded in places. I feel a bristle in some areas. These are just sensations, and without any preconceived notions there is nothing that is known by the sensation that this is an 'apple'.

The words “cold, a bit hard, round in places” are words/thoughts that are trying to describe actual experience. However, actual experience is indescribable. How would you describe the colour red to someone who has been blind from birth?

Sensation is AE of sensation and not AE of apple
Once again, it is only thought that points to the sensation (labelled cold, hard) and further labels it as an ‘apple’.
So the AE of ‘apple’ is thought and not the AE of sensation.

Does taste itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?

I feel the juices flow across my tongue and experience sweetness, and a soft texture. I sense hunger rising. Without any preconceived ideas it is not known that this is an 'apple'.

“I feel the juices flow across my tongue” is AE of sensation and not juices flowing across a tongue.
The taste labelled ‘sweetness’ is AE of taste and not the AE of an apple.
“Soft texture” labelled by thought is AE of sensation and not AE of an apple.
The AE of apple is thought and not the AE of taste or apple.

Does smell itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?

This one is harder. Still, the smell ultimately does not give rise to the notion that this is an 'apple' outside of any preconceived ideas.

Lovely! Smell is AE of smell, no matter what thought labels the smell as.
The smell labelled ‘apples’ is AE of smell and not the AE of an apple
The label and thoughts about an ‘apple’ are AE of thought and not the AE of smell or an apple.

Does sound itself know anything about an apple? Or is there just sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?

I bite into the apple and listen, there is the sound of crunching. It is not known that this is the sound of an apple.

The sound labelled as ‘crunching’ is the AE of sound and not the AE of ‘crunching’ or an apple. Sound, no matter what thought labels the sound as, is the AE of sound.

Does the label itself, or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’?

The label itself, the word 'apple', and even the thought or imagination of such, does not intrinsically know anything about an 'apple'.

Exactly. This going to point out that the content of thought holds no experience, otherwise you would find an apple in the label ‘apple’!
So the label and thoughts about an apple are AE, however content of all thoughts are pure fantasy.

In actual experience (AE) is an 'apple' actually known?

It is not. There are no actual experiences of an 'apple' actually known, only what my senses and thoughts present in that moment.

And what are you senses presenting in that moment?

After reading my responses, if you have any questions or you are not clear about anything….now is the time to ask :)

With love, Kay

Hi Kay,

Thank you for your feedback. It is excellent and well received.

And what are you senses presenting in that moment?

That I am sensing something in my hand and can feel its weight and contours and see its radiant colors, and as I bite into it I taste it, hear it, smell it, and can experience thoughts related to what it is. This is, I feel, my actual experience.

Sincerely,
Jeremy

Hey Jeremy,

And what are you senses presenting in that moment?

That I am sensing something in my hand and can feel its weight and contours and see its radiant colors, and as I bite into it I taste it, hear it, smell it, and can experience thoughts related to what it is. This is, I feel, my actual experience.

Lovely, Jeremy, however there is no “I” that is experiencing experience.

There is nothing here in actual experience that is separate from experienced. In other words there is no ‘experiencer’ of experience. Just THIS/experience/awareness. Always Now.

Grab yourself some paper and a pen and give yourself at least 20 minutes to do the following experiment.

First, write what is being ‘experienced’ right now using words “I” and “me” and “my”. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

For example:-
I am lying in bed.
I am hearing the rain,
I am typing these words,
I am scratching my leg,
I am drinking a cup of coffee
I am thinking about what to write

Do it for 10 minutes.
Watch the body - are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words “I” and “me” and “my”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:

Lying in bed, waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, drinking coffee, hearing rain, scratching leg.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways of labelling experience - does one seem ‘truer’ than the other? If so, which one?

What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

With love, Kay

Hi Kay,

First, write what is being ‘experienced’ right now using words “I” and “me” and “my”. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

I am sitting in my office chair. I hear the hum of my computer. Not too far away, I hear people speaking on a speaker phone. I am looking at my computer monitor, a coffee cup, and some pens. I feel my fingers typing and resting on the surface of keys. I feel the small bumps on the letters J and F. I am thinking of what to write. I am listening to some of the conversation in the distance. I am bouncing my leg in a restless manner. I am looking out my window at an Oak tree. I see that it is green. I look at the leaves on the tree and see that some are orange. I feel warm air coming from a computer under my desk. I touch my lips with my right hand index finger. I smell my own skin. I adjust my glasses and correct my posture. I scan my body for any signs of pain and notice slight discomfort in my left ankle. I stretch my ankle while sitting. I see that it feels better. I feel my socks and my shoes. My toes feel very warm. There are varying sensations of tightening and relaxing. I am typing more words. I examine my body and it relaxes. I examine my thoughts and feel it tighten again.

Then for next 10 minutes write without words “I” and “me” and “my”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:

Sitting in my chair. One leg under the other. Watching thoughts about sleep. Feeling the warm air rise from under my desk. Breathing. Touching the keyboard. Touching the desk. Feeling clothes. Feeling slight irritation behind arm. Repositioning. Breathing. Listening to background noise of computers humming. Swallowing. Blinking. Moving my head around, feeling my neck muscles. Noticing relaxation. Thinking. Breathing. Touching a mouse. Looking around. Feeling heartbeats. Seeing a map. Seeing a painting of a dog. Holding a pen. Typing. Putting pen back on the desk. Breathing.

Now compare the two ways of labelling experience - does one seem ‘truer’ than the other? If so, which one?

The second way seems profoundly more true. My body was more relaxed. The difference in awareness is plainly observed in the second way.

What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels describe the experience but diminish it somehow. Without them there is just experience.

Sincerely,
Jeremy

Hey Jeremy,

What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels describe the experience but diminish it somehow. Without them there is just experience.

How exactly do labels diminish the experience? Are not labels also a part of the actual experience arising?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities/experience simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

With love, Kay

Hi Kay:

How exactly do labels diminish the experience? Are not labels also a part of the actual experience arising?

Labels ARE a part of the AE. This was simply me misusing the term. After re-reading some of your previous posts in our thread this became clearer to me.

Thanks for the clear instructions for the next day. My mind is already doing this to some extent based on the previous experiences; it will be both interesting and fun to keep moving in this vein.

Sincerely,
Jeremy