The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to be a process of undoing and unlearning in order to find truth underneath the illusion. Through this one is able to see what really is. I understand self to be an idea with no real footing or place in reality. Although at the same time I am aware to the "presence" of this self in my life.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to be guided or pointed in the right direction to find out the truth about myself. In that, find freedom from bondage to self. Beyond that, I am open minded to what I will find. I am aware to how this apparent self can block me off from this power and this world. Im looking to travel deeper and go further, whatever that might look like. As well as to take a deep look into what self is and everything that comes with that. At the end of the day I am really just searching for truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Im honestly not sure what to expect as far as results because my experience is that "this" continues to surprise me. I have read the Introduction on the website and expect to undergo a shedding process to search for truth about myself and about this world. I expect to do allot of introspection into my own belief systems and ideas that I may be holding onto. That being said I expect to be challenged to take an honest look into myself and what self is, and what I am not.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
For the past 4-5 years, but really my entire life, I have been doing a lot of seeking for something. I was placed in a position where growing spiritually was a must for me and I felt a pressure to grow in a relationship with god. That being said I spent the first 4 years living on self propulsion and doing allot in order to cultivate this relationship, and did not get connected with this power. Through having that experience, and other circumstances in my life I was placed in a position with no seemingly good way to turn. That was when I started to have new experiences with this power and had my first experience with pure serene presence. In the last nine or so months I have been taking a new approach to spirituality and have new vital spiritual experiences with this power and presence working in my life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

Hi BirdDog,

My name is Jadzia. I’d like to be your guide. You had to wait a bit so if you are still interested we could start.

You seem to have a good idea of what can be expected here. What we do here is looking directly at that what can be found in Actual experience, meaning colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

In that, find freedom from bondage to self.

There is no self so what is there that says there is a bondage to self?

Here are some housekeeping rules:

Let’s try to post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

Put aside all spiritual resources like books, teachings, philosophy ect for the benefit of our investigation. And try a completely fresh look, for the time of the investigation forget everything you learned about self, self propulsion and whatever, ok?

Always answer from your immediate present experience only, not from what you have read, heard, learned or known so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly at the moment from looking at what is here right now: smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour (image) and observed thoughts.

Since there are no right or wrong answers please answer with complete honesty.

If you haven't already read the guidelines and disclaimer, please read them now. http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please use the quote function when replying to a question.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Let me know if you have any problems with it.

Can you agree to the above?

Then let’s start with what you expect from this exploration. Give yourself a bit of time and then answer these questions:

How will life change?
What about you, will you change?
What will be different?
What would you like to gain?
Would there be something you wouldn’t want to loose or might miss?

Love, Jadzia

Jadzia,

Thanks for taking me on! and I will do my best to set aside the things you mentioned and stay present.
So to your questions.

"how will life change"
life is changing right now in this moment and will continue to change. As to where it is going I do not know. I do expect life to continue to change throughout this exploration, but as far as if it would be different if I was not exploring...well how I perceive and go through life has the possibility to change.

"Will I change"
I believe that I will change as far as how I see my-self, or the realization that I was never changing or not changing to begin with might really take hold. I think through continuing to explore It will be revealed how I am changing, but the exploration itself will not bring about change because things are already changing right now.

"What will be different"
Im not sure that anything will be different. Maybe how I experience things, or I will loose the idea that there is anyone to even experience things in the first place. Right now I am struggling to think of anything that is actually real, that could be different, because everything is already different, and changing. I forget that fact at times, but right now it is true to me.

"what would I like to gain"
I would like a deeper truth but i'm not sure if that is even something that one gains . But in this moment I understand that there is nothing to gain.

"Something I wouldn't want to loose"
The only thing that I can loose is myself. But at the same time that is everything. I want to loose it, That is the whole reason I am doing this exploration, but for whatever reason I feel attachment to myself. but I expect not to miss myself, if myself was gone.

Your expectations sound realistic, it is not likely that they will get into the way. If while going on new expectations come up, tell me and we’ll address it.

I will do my best to set aside the things you mentioned and stay present.

Yes, staying present and being open minded is very helpful.

Right now I am struggling to think of anything that is actually real, that could be different, because everything is already different, and changing.

What do you mean by actually real?
Would you tell me what is different and changing already?

Lets start with a simple exercise to get to know or become sure of what Actual Experience (AE) is.
It would be good to do it several times throughout the day:
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
For example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down your daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience and real, in so far that you can observe them) and report back what you notice.

"What do I mean by actually real"

What I consider to be actually real is what is going on right now in the moment, opposed to thoughts or ideas about what is happening. I believe that things that are real or reality itself is constantly being reviled to us. For example to touch on the exercise you proposed, this morning when I woke up and I was still in my bed, I read your reply and thought about holding a cup of coffee in my hand. but in that moment me holding a cup of coffee is not real or reality because im not holding the cup, I was only thinking about holding a cup of coffee. Then I got up and made a cup of coffee and I held the cup in my hand and in that moment it was real. There are many things and similar scenarios on much larger scales in my mind I make reality that are not actually reality. Another way to put it is I am scheduled to work tomorrow. I will probably and most likely will go to work tomorrow. but I am not at work right now and its not happening. therefor its not my reality in this moment let me know if that makes sense to you

"What is different and changing already"

Well everything is different and changing already. I feel like the present moment is this perpetual movement forward. So based on that my life is also moving forward and evolving in the same way. I didn't necessarily mean my personality is changing and would change. Or that the way I will act will change. but when I was answering the question "will I change" I guess specifically reality as I see it is moving forward and happening. Therefor I have to be moving forward with it. Then as a byproduct I am changing and will change.

As far my (AE) today

.
I noticed when I thought of things as simply sensations, and smells, sound and taste I was slowing down and almost became aware of things that are constantly happening around me that I often overlook or pay no attention to. It reminded me of how much is going on around me. What I mean by that its almost like these sensations are what make up everything around me but I get so caught up in everything thats not sensations that I overlook the things that are happening right now. i had the thought that everything I am experiencing is made up of these senses, yet I lump them together in my head to make a new "Experience" thats not actually happening. And I don't see, and am not aware of the things that are happening is the moment.

For example to touch on the exercise you proposed, this morning when I woke up and I was still in my bed, I read your reply and thought about holding a cup of coffee in my hand. but in that moment me holding a cup of coffee is not real or reality because im not holding the cup, I was only thinking about holding a cup of coffee. Then I got up and made a cup of coffee and I held the cup in my hand and in that moment it was real.

Yes, this is about what is happening right now, in the moment, which can be observed with the senses and thought, in contrast to imagining it. Though you can observe the thought “making coffee” - it’s content isn’t real. The thoughts about drinking a coffee would hardly have given you the same pleasure and the coffein to get to full awakeness.
In this sense that what can be observed is direct sensory experience/raw experience - is real. Like smelling, seeing/colour, hearing, tasting, sensation (we refer to sensation as everything you can feel, like a pain in the muscle or warmth), thoughts.

Let’s see how this “lumping” together gets started.

Here is a picture of an apple


When looking there is colour/image seen; a thought saying “apple” maybe “red apple” or “I am looking at an apple”.
What is known for sure? Colour, yes, thoughts yes.
Is "red" AE (actual experience) or a thought labelling?
What about the content of the thoughts?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation, right?

Is there really an “apple” here, or only colour or thoughts about “apple”. Can “apple” be found in actual experience?

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
How is it known?

However, is an "apple" actually known?

What is known for sure

The only thing known for sure is that I am seeing a picture of an apple on my computer screen.

Is red an actuall experience or thought labeling.

To me this one is tricky because as I look at the apple on my computer screen, I am seeing an image of an apple and part of that image is the color red of the apple. Then as the thought comes to my mind "apple" I almost immediately turn it into a thought labeling by associating the picture of something red into a thought about an apple. Next thing I know I am thinking about eating an apple and all the other sensations around apples. So the color of the image is (A.E) .But all the thoughts about red apples would be thought labeling. or even calling it an apple is thought labeling. because it is not an apple it is a picture of an apple.

The content of these thoughts

There is no content to these thoughts. Thats it, they are just thoughts and they are not grounded anywhere. So i do find myself thinking about eating an apple, and then its almost like I can taste the apple. And feel the crispness as I bite into the apple. So maybe there is no content to the thought or idea of eating an apple but the experience I am having at the moment through other senses?

Can apple be found in actual experience?

No it cannot. I can think about what an apple might taste like but until the apple hits my taste buds I do not know for sure. By looking at the picture of the apple I may be able to guess what the apple feels like and how heavy it is but until I hold it I cant say for sure. I can only think about these things. Or imagine the apple. but imagine the apple without having it lol.

How is it known

My mind fills in the blanks so to speak about the apple. Maybe I ate an apple last week, well my mind is going off past experiences in order to formulate an idea about what the next apple I eat is going to taste like. I may have a close guess of what an apple is like but i cannot call it "known" because I am not eating, holding, smelling, seeing an apple right now. Right now an apple does not exist to me , I only fill in the blanks about I think an apple is like and what I have "Known" apples to be like.

Also I believe we would have to have the same definition of known

Known-
have knowledge or information concerning.
"I would write to him if I knew his address"
synonyms: have knowledge of, be informed of, be apprised of; formalbe cognizant of
"I think Mary knows his address"

I believe i do have knowledge or information concerning an apple. But Thats as far as it goes. I am not having an A.E of an Apple.

Good work.

Known-
have knowledge or information concerning.
"I would write to him if I knew his address"
synonyms: have knowledge of, be informed of, be apprised of; formalbe cognizant of
"I think Mary knows his address"

Good idea.
There are two ways we use knowing:
1 – knowing as in direct sensory experience. In AE there is the thought referring to what is – Seeing an apple
2 – knowing in knowing about something. Thought content describing the how something is – The apple is red, will be sweet when be bitten into ect.

There is no content to these thoughts. Thats it, they are just thoughts and they are not grounded anywhere.

Lets get clear here.
At LU we say that a thought is in as far real as you can observe something (AE) – it is grounded in actual experience. All the other thoughts aren’t about/referring to direct sensory experience, they are just thoughts labeling/content.

Think of your example from yesterday. Holding a cup of coffee in your hand in real, getting the nice smell, taste good taste and sipping it away happily is absolutely different from imagining it.
When imagining it:
Is there a cup of coffee in reality?
Can the smell the coffee be enjoyed or is there a thought with the content “smell” of coffee?
Does it quench your thirst or is there a thought with the content “coffee quenches thirst”?
You get it?
Content of thoughts are not “real” they are like fantasies.

I want you to do another exercise:

Where ever you sit right now look for an object to use.
Have one?
Then look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it.

Done?

Now describe the backside of the object.

How is it known what the backside looks like?
What tells what it looks like?

I do understand what you are saying about thoughts being real and AE because the are happening. and the thing its thinking about does not have content.

describe an object you see

My object is a Direct Tv remote. it is a white and black remote with various other buttons on it. It is oblong rectangle in shape. It feels made of some sort of plastic there are different numbers and symbols on buttons on the remote. Then I also had the thought about what all the buttons are used for and their functions. what the words on the remote stand for

back side of my object.

The back side of the object is the same color white as the front. There is a spot to put the batteries in the back of the remote. Also an I.R sensor inside a black panel to change the chanell can be seen from the back-side of the remote

how is it known what the backside looks like

\

It is known what the back side looks like because I remember what it looks like from past experiences. Then when I turned the remote over and looked at the back, what I thought it looked like was confirmed. and in that moment I knew what it looked like because I was looking and feeling it.

What tells what it looks like

My thoughts tell me what it looks like. It is hard to tell what happens first but its almost like my thoughts give me an idea of what it looks like before I even turned the remote over and was looking at it. And then when I do look at it, its myself, basically telling myself what it looks like. As if that is even needed

I do understand what you are saying about thoughts being real and AE because the are happening. and the thing its thinking about does not have content.

Yes, what the thought is pointing to (the object) does not have content, but the the content of thought is also empty, as it only points to the AE of thought and nothing else.
Can a thought think? Or is that just another thought about thought? A thought pointing to thought?

Lets say you are in the desert with a friend. You are terribly thirsty. Your friends offers you two options.
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

It is known what the back side looks like because I remember what it looks like from past experiences. Then when I turned the remote over and looked at the back, what I thought it looked like was confirmed. and in that moment I knew what it looked like because I was looking and feeling it.

How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is even 3D?
Can this be known in AE without taking it into your hands and turn it?
Can an object be known at all?

My thoughts tell me what it looks like. It is hard to tell what happens first but its almost like my thoughts give me an idea of what it looks like before I even turned the remote over and was looking at it. And then when I do look at it, its myself, basically telling myself what it looks like. As if that is even needed

Well observed! So thoughts with the content "This is what it looks like" are there before turning the remote. Interesting, eh?
How comes that the thoughts don’t “know” that “telling” isn’t needed?
Can thoughts “know” anything?
Do thoughts “tell” anyone?

Love,
Jadzia

I do now understand what you mean by thoughts not having content. The thought is AE because it is happening. The thought is there but what it is pointing at may not be real. I do not believe a thought can think it is just a thought pointing at another thought but I could be wrong.

I am defiantly going to pick the actual bottle of water in the desert.

how can it be known that there is a back or all?

It is just my mind trying to put together what the back looks like based of memories and thoughts that I have or past experiences i have had in the past. I cannot say for absolute certain that there is a back you are right. All i can say for certain is that i am looking at the front of the remote. Its the same as how I cannot tell you for certain, that it is an absolute truth that anything exist beyond the room i am in right now.

How come the thoughts dont Know that telling isnt needed

Well to go back to the definition of know- to have information about. well how is it that a thought can store information? well it cant right? So I honestly don't know why thoughts feel the need to tell myself things. I guess this is where the separation comes into play, because the thoughts must think they are separate from myself or else why would the thoughts need to talk to them selves? why would thoughts need to tell thoughts something, shouldn't they already know whatever it is that they are saying?

Do thoughts tell anyone?

Well thoughts must think there is someone to tell because it is happening, am I right? I am honestly not sure exactly what that relationship or the two parties would look like, but I do see what you are pointing at if i am not way off.

Yes!!!

I do not believe a thought can think it is just a thought pointing at another thought but I could be wrong.

Yes, it is a thought pointing to another thought.
What is a belief?
What is a memory?
What is a past experience?
Could all of this be thoughts?

I cannot say for absolute certain that there is a back you are right. All i can say for certain is that i am looking at the front of the remote.

Yes. In AE there is only the front to be seen.

Well thoughts must think there is someone to tell because it is happening, am I right?

Well, is there someone?
Or is there a thought about someone?

Now have a look at thoughts.
Looking at thoughts is something best done in a very friendly and light way, meaning butterfly touch like and not staring. Since you wrote you meditate you will be familiar with it.
Sit quietly for about 10 to 15 minutes, close your eyes and just notice thoughts.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
It can be everything, like "So I am sitting here now".

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5.

Between the two thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes.

So just looking at the thoughts coming and going and observing the short gap between them.

It is good to do the exercise several times a day. You can do it “on the Go”, too, using a little moment during the day to notice thinking happening. A thought coming and going and the gap before the next one.

Let me know what you notice.

Love,
Jadzia

could t

his all be thoughts

yes they very well can be all thoughts. I think I like to classify them as different kinds of thoughts. Like growing up I would hold onto past experiences and beliefs as truths. I do understand how In this present moment is truth. How those things may have happened but I cannot say they are truth now. Therefore in this moment they are just thoughts! The only truth is that I am thinking.

Well is there someone?

I believe there is a perceived someone. In other words in my mind there is a belief of understanding. That does not necessarily mean that someone exists

or is there a thought about someone[-quote]

I think this is more true. This goes along with my pervious answer that there is a perceived someone or a belief in someone. All beliefs originate and or are bought into by ones mind and thoughts. They are what one thinks or "Knows" to be true but if you look up the definition of a belief you will find this-confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: I.E cannot be absolute truth.

What did I notice in meditation about thoughts.

I noticed they would spontaneously appear with no doing or effort on my art most of the time. A lot of the thoughts had very little to do with my reality at the moment. Most of the thoughts that come were stories about things not happening right now. and I would get on that train of thought and buy into the thoughts for a moment before I became aware I was doing it and then I would recenter and get off the train. and the thought would pass.

Other times I would purposefully direct my attention to sounds, or breathing and my thoughts would fallow and be focused on those things. Then either there would be a blissful period of no thought, that came in-between thoughts, or my attention would get drawn by a spontaneous thought or story. This pattern can look different, or come in a different interval of time.

The only truth is that I am thinking.

If you observe that in AE is there a "thinker" or is there a thought with the content “I am thinking” ?

I believe there is a perceived someone.

If you look in AE is there someone? Someone who believes and someone who perceives?
What does the perceiving? Can a thought perceive another thought?

……but if you look up the definition of a belief

This is the use of intellect and not looking. I know it is tempting, but drop it and LOOK.

I noticed they would spontaneously appear with no doing or effort on my art most of the time.

Well observed.
Most of the time? What happened the other times?

….. and my thoughts would fallow and be focused on those things.

Can you observe that in AE?
Can thoughts follow? Be focused?
Or are these thoughts with the content „the thought follows my intention“ , „Now the thoughts focus on something“

Follow the train of your thoughts again and have another look.

This is the point of no return for intellectualization.
Push intellectual thoughts aside for the time of this investigation, ignore them. Right now they are not not helpful at all, rather the oposite.
So now everything is about LOOKING – Direct Looking – Actual Experience – This moment, what can be observed in this moment!


Love,
Jadzia

I see how I was relying on intellect there and will try not to move back to that and look for myself.

Most of the time? what about other times?

In meditation I realized what you were saying when you said can thoughts fallow? can thoughts be focused? Im gonna go back on what I said earlier. Its like all the thoughts are spontaneous. They just happen. sometimes they are about something in A.E like breathing or sound and other times they are not. it was almost like something tried to take credit for directing the thought. Like thought happened then something tried to say I thought that, and im thinking this right now. I cant find the thing that is trying to take credit and call itself the thinker or the one perceiving. Before I did think I was directing my thoughts but I cannot find the thinker. and the more I try to look for it the more confused I get. The more I cant figure it out and it was like then I was trying to turn to intellectualize everything. But that isn't working.

If you look in AE is there someone? Someone who believes and someone who perceives?
What does the perceiving? Can a thought perceive another thought?/quote]

I cannot find someone in AE. Intellectually or in my mind I do not know why I keep going back to the idea that there is someone perceiving/thinking. In this moment I cant find anything perceiving. In this moment its almost like I cant think think anymore. no matter how hard I sit here and think about it, I cant figure this out, and I don't expect to be able to figure this out either. Thoughts are of no good. Its like my thoughts are now getting all mixed up and confused. Its not because of a lack of explanation of your part, its just I cant answer these questions intellectually because this literally makes no sense right now. I am not sure if thats a bad thing or not. Im going to answer these questions simply because this has to be a simple thing. Nothing is perceiving. A thought cannot perceive another thought.

Can you observe that in AE?
Can thoughts follow? Be focused?
Or are these thoughts with the content „the thought follows my intention“ , „Now the thoughts focus on something“

I kinda answered some of these questions in the previous paragraph. In looking its like there is thought, and the immediate thought after of this is me thinking and this was my intention. I really cant focus my thoughts anywhere without there being spontaneous thoughts first. I cant find the thing directing any of these thoughts. like I cant take credit for any of this.

Like i'm just sitting here and every time I go down the worm hole of thought its like I don't come out. As I continue Im going to keep looking and see what is found. and really try to stay present to what is happening.