The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I've had a sense of this. I can see from my 6 years of daily meditation practice the impermanent nature of all things. Awareness knows the data from the 6 sense doors and sees it coming and going. I have a real sense that the Self doesn't exist but haven't been able to turn into it and unmask it yet.

What are you looking for at LU?
A community of like minded people. Ultimately Liberation from the imprisonment of the self. Help and guidance to help navigate the process of seeing through the illusion or dream. Understand Non duality in practice and real terms, not just in theory.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help in liberation from the attachment and identification with my self. Somebody experienced who has been through this who I can trust to lead me. I expect to work hard and to be uncomfortable, to face my fear, be brave.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Came to Mindfulness 6 years ago after getting to mid life and thinking is this it!! Stressed and burnt out. Mindfulness resonated with me instantly and I knew I had found something real. Have practiced daily and attended multiple silent retreats. Have been studying the teachings of the buddha and recently sat a 9 day silent Chinese Chan retreat. The practiced clicked with me as did the words in the Faith Mind Text. http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhism ... h_zen.html

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hello Cloudberry,

Welcome to LU!

My name is Alina and I can be your guide.

Is there a different name you want me to use during the exploration?

I would like to ask you to answer in your own words from your own direct experience with total honesty. Please give me a clear YES on that, and we can proceed.

Please learn to use the quote function, here are the video instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Finally you can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

Are you ready?
Lets see if there is a 'you' as you know it.

Hi Alina

Thank you for being my guide, please call me Rob

YES, let's proceed

I look forward to your next reply

Thanks

Rob

Wonderful Rob,

Thank you for the clear yes...

Here we go:

Please write what do you think that seeing the truth will be like?
How would you change? What will be different?

Explore and write what feels true. 
Much love.

Hi Alina

Just a quick note to acknowledge receipt of your message
I'll explore and reply with what feels true

So grateful to you

Thanks

Rob

Hi Alina

I've been reflecting and have a reply on some areas i feel are coming from a place of truth.

What do you think that seeing the truth will be like?

After reading a few accounts over the last couple of weeks I'm leaning towards seeing the truth to be a gradual process of seeing through the creation of self. Like mindfulness of thoughts but on steroids. Could it be the self is just an ongoing stream of mental events? I have this analogy and an actual experience of the self being like a media news room,reporting on what is happening and spinning off believable opinions, stories and propaganda. So seeing the truth would be like seeing through what isn't true, that which is created somewhere in the mind so it would be like a sense of being free of something. Maybe as subtle as having a choice to believe or not. Seeing the code of "me" being written, once it's seen it loses it's power. A bit like seeing the little man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz or finding a trojan virus running deep in my operating system. This is mostly concepts and ideas, probably generated by the self :-) but I also have a tiny experiential sense of some this. Catching selfing process/thoughts just after it has happened and being able to drop it. It's really ephemeral and hard to pinpoint, it's always there, behind me possibly, or around me, infusing everything.

Maybe it would happen like the flick of a switch with a realisation, like snipping a thread and the whole garment falls apart. If I'm honest I'd like it to be like that. But I really don't mind because if I'm able to see the truth then it will be the truth and it won't matter what I think about it. I think that makes sense :-)

How would you change?

I don't know, I guess I'd be be more real
Probably calmer and more appreciative and grateful

What will be different?

It will be like seeing without the filters
I'd still have emotions and good and bad days but I would expect to be less blown by the winds and more stable and connected to ....just this. Just aware

Nothing and everything. By that I mean nothing will change as life will keep unfolding as it does but something will change within that will change everything. Writing this sentence I halted and was touched by some real confusion and maybe some fear. What if I'm wrong and the changes will be drastic and long pause for reflection...what if I can't let go. Some sadness being felt now.

I'll send this for now, it's a bit of a ramble

Thank you for being there Alina

Rob

Thank you for the honesty Rob.

Maybe it would happen like the flick of a switch with a realisation, like snipping a thread and the whole garment falls apart. If I'm honest I'd like it to be like that.

Please let go of this expectation, just see the obvious truth, that you don't really know how it might show up! Just say an inner YES to not-knowing without expectations...only then resistance can relax and if the expectations will show-up again we will address them, again so they won't interfere.

Nothing and everything. By that I mean nothing will change as life will keep unfolding as it does but something will change within that will change everything.

Couldn't have said it better! Thank you... really enjoyed reading your answers.

Writing this sentence I halted and was touched by some real confusion and maybe some fear. What if I'm wrong and the changes will be drastic and long pause for reflection...what if I can't let go. Some sadness being felt now.

Fear and sadness are good indicators. Now look at that fear. Can you see that this is a mechanism of protection, that this fear is hiding something from being found out?

If I tell you now that you as an individual person that has feelings, thoughts, goals and a life story that is being cared about do not exist and you have never existed. Not even for a second!
What is your reaction upon reading this?

Really look into it. Write what feels true.
Sending love.

Alina

Firstly I'd like you to know how grateful I am for you guiding me. I will do everything you ask of me and surrender to the process.

I was tempted to reply last night to your reply but chose to wait a bit.

If I tell you now that you as an individual person that has feelings, thoughts, goals and a life story that is being cared about do not exist and you have never existed. Not even for a second!
What is your reaction upon reading this?

I had mixed reaction to your question. Initially it was to stop dead with a kind of WTF !! (sorry) reaction. A kind of shocking realisation of no way, could this be true.

This shifted into a sense of relief, a kind of wow, this could be good not to have to worry about all this in the future.

Today as I write this I am somewhere in the middle but still pondering the question.

(Sidetrack, the last two mornings upon awaking from sleeping I've been able to see the mind and thoughts spinning up and have watched them an simply acknowledged "this isn't me" or "no self" something like that. It seems to have led to me meeting the day with much more openness and space.)

So back to this amazing question. I love it

If I tell you now that you as an individual person that has feelings, thoughts, goals and a life story that is being cared about do not exist and you have never existed. Not even for a second!
What is your reaction upon reading this?

I find myself thinking about my life and all those experiences and memories etc wasn't I there for them? If I wasn't there for them then who was? I then had this thing where I saw my life like this linear life with all the past and all the future ahead of me and I realised that at every time it was only ever the moment.

do not exist and you have never existed. Not even for a second!

It's such a bam statement ! What did exist?

It's made me look into my experience. A lot of the time it seems like it is me having my experience, the owning of my experience, I am having this experience.

Other times there is awareness of direct experience, hearing seeing, smelling tasting, feeling, seeing thinking.

I catch sight of selfing a fraction of a second or a few seconds after it has happened, not while it has happened. Some kind of "me" based thought stream, mental event.

No fear or sadness today

I watched my father pass away this year and was at his side while he breathed his lasts few deep breaths and then stillness. It brought it home to me we have to let go of it all eventually. Why not embrace the letting go now. I don't mean that in a maudlin way but more in a matter of fact kind of way.

I'm releasing all expectations and simply opening to my experience

Thank you thank you for being there

Some emotion here now at writing this line of thank you. Touched by your gift of helping me

I'll continue to explore your question

Much love back

Rob

Your gratitude is deeply felt.

I watched my father pass away this year and was at his side while he breathed his lasts few deep breaths and then stillness. It brought it home to me we have to let go of it all eventually. Why not embrace the letting go now. I don't mean that in a maudlin way but more in a matter of fact kind of way.

My condolences for the loss of your dad. Yes! Death of someone we knew is a powerful portal and a great reminder to the one that is ready to see the truth. Letting go unveils the welcoming ground of peace and freedom.

last two mornings upon awaking from sleeping I've been able to see the mind and thoughts spinning up and have watched them an simply acknowledged "this isn't me" or "no self" something like that. It seems to have led to me meeting the day with much more openness and space.

:) lovely

Now look at life through the lens of no self and see what you notice. Does life need a manager in a form of you?
Or is it happening all by itself?

I find myself thinking about my life and all those experiences and memories etc wasn't I there for them? If I wasn't there for them then who was?

Let’s see.
The sense of being always is and always will be. That is the basic being-ness. That is the only true thing. Alive awareness - aliveness. If you pay close attention you can feel it has never changed no matter how many birthdays you've celebrated. By now you must have a good sense of that in your meditations.

Now, let that be... and lets explore what is not real, what is not true, let's have a look at the individual self.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Write what you feels true.
Sending love.

Hi Alina

Thanks for your questions and guidance which I was excited to receive.

So lets have a look.

Now look at life through the lens of no self and see what you notice?

I've been exploring this and there is a way to kind of soften and let go of needing to be anything else and it's a subtle but notibale difference that comes over me. There is a kind of softening into taking in the world through peripheral vision. Happy, relaxed sense of enough-ness. No resistance.

Does life need a manager in a form of you?
Or is it happening all by itself?

This is an interesting area of enquiry. I can see that things need to be done and planned and actions carried out but there is definitely a way of getting out of the way and letting things unfold as they will. At work (office) tasks get dealt with when they need to. Commuting, I manage to walk to the station and navigate the tube lines and station changes to the different trains I need to catch all without much fuss. There is still some thought behind it but I suppose in a way it does kind of happen. I was typing at the computer and hunger arose and my body sends me the signals the thoughts arise of what is there to eat in the fridge, a decision is made and the body gets up walks into the kitchen, makes the food and eats it.
There is definitely thought happening but is it a "me"? Is there a sweet spot between being and doing?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

This was interesting. I've arrived at the current conclusion that there is no difference between a future thought and a memory.

Both of them seem to invoke a visual aspect in the mind of the scene with colour but it has no substance. It's like those wispy images you see coming out of a genies lamp. So to me they seem the same and actually made of nothing. Like a soap bubble. In both cases, memory and future thought, the attentional resources are diverted to the memory or imagination of future and awareness of what else is happening now is lost for the duration. A future thought is an idea. They are both just imagined. Sometimes they can come with some physical resonance like an anxious thought about the future is felt in the belly. So there is a thought, an image and a reaction in the body and I can be aware of all three.

In summary I can't see any difference between a future and past thought.

I've been reading the books Liberation Unleashed and Gateless Gatecrashers. Is that ok while we are working together?

Wishing you kindness

Rob

Great looking into memory and future Rob, lets continue exploring...

I've been reading the books Liberation Unleashed and Gateless Gatecrashers. Is that ok while we are working together?

Wonderful these books are true gems! It doesn't matter what will give the last little push to see the absence. See if you can apply some of the questions from the book to your direct experience or try out some of the exercises there, especially on the days i have no chance in replying on LU since in the next few weeks my kids are off daycare for winter break so i will do my best to find free moments to reply... it just might not be consistent.

There is definitely thought happening but is it a "me"? Is there a sweet spot between being and doing?

Examine thoughts and actions. What is really here? What is real?

Thoughts:

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Could a thought think another thought?

Can you choose what to think, or what not to think?
Where the thoughts are coming from?
Is 'I' the owner of thoughts?


Action:
Is it 'I' that is moving the body or body is moving then thoughts come in and say 'I did it'? 
Does any action needed to be thought into execution, or instruction might only be needed in the learning process?
See if when entranced in thought the body still knows how to do what it needs to do; driving, walking, washing dishes...etc. - is there a controller?

For fun, tell body to do something, like to run instead of walk. 
Then for fun too, watch how body moves and say 'I did not know this was going to happen'

Does body require you to tell it how to pump the blood, grow hair, digest, walk, eat etc? Are you in control of this body's functioning? Are you in control of other bodies?

There is a great difference between functional thoughts or what i call the tool-mind and the fictional thoughts or the story-mind. The tool-mind is a great problem solver and most needed in work innovative creative environments.
It is the story-mind we are looking at, its primary illusion is the fictitious character 'me' - is it real? Look! Can you point to its realty, can you touch 'Rob' the label ?

Describe what you notice,
Sending love.

Thanks so much Alina

I'll get stuck in and report back.

Have fun with your kids

Much gratitude

Rob

Hi Alina

I hope you are well and having nice time with your children

So here is an update from me:

Thoughts:
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Could a thought think another thought?

Can you choose what to think, or what not to think?
Where the thoughts are coming from?
Is 'I' the owner of thoughts?

Could it be the I that thinks is also just a thought. Logically I get this but not in my experience. There is still a strong identification that feels like "I" "me" but I will keep vigilant and looking into this.

I don't see a thought being able to think another thought, not can I choose what to think or not to think. I can direct thought towards a subject such as planning a project at work or cooking a meal. Even then thoughts thoughts have a mind of their own and I'm taken off track. Thoughts just appear out of nowhere and can be about anything. I am noticing though that thoughts are generally about what has happened over the last few hours. If I watch a film or engage in some work or talk to a friend there will be resonance of this coming up in the thinking.

Is 'I' the owner of thoughts

I would have to say no. "I" can be influenced by thoughts like "I" can be influenced by whatever happens in the environment such as the smell of freshly coked bread can smell delicious and desire to eat it can arise.

There seems to be a constant flow of thought traffic through the mind. Sometimes a lot of it and other times hardly any. The last couple of days the thoughts I have found myself quite identified with the thinking with less of a hold on my direct experience. This seems to be lifting a bit today and awareness of direct experience getting stronger again.

Action:
Is it 'I' that is moving the body or body is moving then thoughts come in and say 'I did it'

?

This was an interesting one. It seems the body does take care of movement and the thoughts can come and claim the movement. There can be some correlation but I would have to say that No its not the "I" that moves the body. That is if "I" is just another thought. When driving, walking, dishes, running a bath etc. No controller.

There is a great difference between functional thoughts or what i call the tool-mind and the fictional thoughts or the story-mind. The tool-mind is a great problem solver and most needed in work innovative creative environments.

I was happy to read about this distinction. Very enlightening to know the difference and start paying attention to it.

It is the story-mind we are looking at, its primary illusion is the fictitious character 'me' - is it real? Look! Can you point to its realty, can you touch 'Rob' the label ?

I'm definitely starting to look for this elusive "I" that I have identified with all my life. There feels areal quality to experience that is infused with "I-ness". It's like getting sucked into this vortex of believing in "me" which pulls me away from direct experience. But I do feel I am starting to turn toward this "I" which is a huge step. I get a sense that it is just thought but it's so close that I can't see it. It's so close that I am it. I can get glimpses of the construction of it after it has happened but not while it is happening.

Ongoing vigilance into the unfolding of experience continuing with curiosity.

Seasons Greetings to you and yours

Thanks and much love

Rob

Hi Alina

I've been looking into this "I" today. There is a definite sense of "Rob-ness" deep inside yet when I look closely I struggle to find it. Just the unfolding of each moment with sensory data and mental narrative. Rob is just a novel that I've been writing. The story of Rob. A compelling work of fiction.


But how to stop writing it?

Be well

Rob

Thank you for the reply and the seasonal greetings.

So let define first what is real;
Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it.

Take for example: umbrella, university, unicorn.
The first points to a material thing; the second to a label that is used for communication but can not be found as a thing; the third is the famous imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real. A fictional character.

Here is an interesting paradox. How can one feel a separate self if it is not there?

I want you to close your eyes and find the feeling that is always here: the being, amness, aliveness.
Now notice the labelling process, how thoughts come up after experience,
and feeling of self can be seen as impersonal feeling + labelling 'me', 'I'.

Now look at the thought I and me.

It's also just a label and it precedes other labels as a construct of language.

I breathe or breathing happens. If I is just a thought how can it breathe?

I've been looking into this "I" today. There is a definite sense of "Rob-ness" deep inside yet when I look closely I struggle to find it. Just the unfolding of each moment with sensory data and mental narrative. Rob is just a novel that I've been writing. The story of Rob. A compelling work of fiction. But how to stop writing it?

Great looking!

But how would you end something that does not exist? You say that you are looking to end the story of Rob, the story of Rob will end with the end of the physical form. But 'I' the experiencer, the doer, the thinker that implies separation from life is an idea, a story, a belief, not reality. Have a look for yourself, what is separate from life? What informs you about something being sepatrate from life? Are 'you' really writing the story of Rob? Can 'I' fiction be a writer of any stories? Or is it just thoughts appearing and 'I' claims to own them.



Really look into it. Write what feels true.
Sending love.